Recorded Trust Documents

[dioxide45]

That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading. How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?

I think the limitation is with how Vistana reservations are handled and what is allowed at each resort with Vistana. Marriott previously had a 13 month booking system in place when they had weeks. Vistana doesn't have that and many resorts limit home resort reservations to 12 months. Since Abound is just an overlay, Abound can't book anything more or better than any other weeks based owner can.

 

[JIMinNC]

That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading. How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?

I'll add to what @dioxide45 posted, the 13 month window is, and always will be, subject to availability. So, if no inventory is deposited into the MVC Exchange, it can't be booked at 13 months. That's the same way it is with MVC inventory today. The inventory can't be booked until either Marriott or an owner moves it into the Exchange. Today, they move some inventory at 13 months and more at 12, so with Vistana, they just wait and move it in at 12 months, per the Vistana rules.

 

[bizaro86]

Speaking only for myself- if I see reports of SDO appearing bookable for DC points at 13 months I'll be writing a pretty strongly worded letter. The CCRs don't allow for 13 month booking by anyone, including the developer. They can't just change the deal because they'd like a different plan better.

 

[dioxide45]

Speaking only for myself- if I see reports of SDO appearing bookable for DC points at 13 months I'll be writing a pretty strongly worded letter. The CCRs don't allow for 13 month booking by anyone, including the developer. They can't just change the deal because they'd like a different plan better.

In years past, didn't we see some SDO deposits into RCI much further out than 12 months?

 

[Red elephant]

I'll add to what @dioxide45 posted, the 13 month window is, and always will be, subject to availability. So, if no inventory is deposited into the MVC Exchange, it can't be booked at 13 months. That's the same way it is with MVC inventory today. The inventory can't be booked until either Marriott or an owner moves it into the Exchange. Today, they move some inventory at 13 months and more at 12, so with Vistana, they just wait and move it in at 12 months, per the Vistana rules.

I understand that the inventory has to be there for one to book. So if one elects abound points the year before it will not be made available till 12 months? Then how can Marriott say you can book at 13 months. They should put an exception to that.

 

[JIMinNC]

I understand that the inventory has to be there for one to book. So if one elects abound points the year before it will not be made available till 12 months? Then how can Marriott say you can book at 13 months. They should put an exception to that.

If I elect my Marriott weeks for points prior to the 13 month window, my expectation is that week could be made available as part of the inventory that is bookable at 13 months, or MVC could hold it for release at 12 months (as the MVC Terms and Conditions limit them to 50% at 13 months). Since it appears that Vistana weeks can't actually be booked by an owner until 12 months, MVC, as program manager, would be prohibited from picking a specific week to deposit into the Exchange until 12 months.

I presume whenever Marriott gets around to publishing updated Terms & Conditions that include the addition of Vistana, these nuances will be addressed there in legal language.

 

[jabberwocky]

In years past, didn't we see some SDO deposits into RCI much further out than 12 months?

The exception to the 12-month rule is fixed weeks. If those are deposited, then they can be made available before 12 months.

I expect that with so many SVR Cascades and Lakes weeks available in Abound that you will be able to book at 13 months for those resorts since most weeks there were sold as fixed-floating weeks that automatically are booked for you before the 12-month mark unless you don't confirm the reservation or book an alternative week.

 

[daviator]

That’s interesting . Whatever is in the Abound is suppose to be bookable at 13 months from all I have reading. How will they restrict the Vistana resorts in abound?

You just won't see Vistana inventory (except perhaps fixed weeks as mentioned above) show up until 12 months prior. Abound has to abide by the Vistana exchange rules, which limit booking to 12 months. Abound is essentially an overlay that sits on top of the existing Vistana system, so weeks which are assigned to Abound still have to abide by the same rules (within Vistana) as weeks not assigned. Otherwise Abound folks could snatch all of the prime inventory at 13 months and leave Vistana owners with the dregs at the resorts they actually own.

 

[grrrah]

My estimation is that it is always going to be more expensive to book Vistana properties in Abound. I will certainly continue to use SOs to book back into Vistana properties.

As an example, I only get 3225 SOs for Desert Springs Villas 1 red season, but I need 4225 points to book the peak weeks in March.

For the most part you are correct, with the exception of Maui (or Lagunamar i thought I read). In the past I have used SO from Maui resorts to go to Princeville for a change. In this case, not counting possible fees, I would have some Abound points left over (~25-30%) depending on week of the year, if I were to enroll my Maui week.

For example, 6200 for the maui deposit, 4225 to book the week I usually travel at any of the Kauai resorts (princeville, waiohai).

 

[VacationForever]

For the most part you are correct, with the exception of Maui (or Lagunamar i thought I read). In the past I have used SO from Maui resorts to go to Princeville for a change. In this case, not counting possible fees, I would have some Abound points left over (~25-30%) depending on week of the year, if I were to enroll my Maui week.

For example, 6200 for the maui deposit, 4225 to book the week I usually travel at any of the Kauai resorts (princeville, waiohai).

You are right about finding sweet spots in cross bookings. However, don't forget about the skim. If Princeville is awarded 4225 Abound points, it is going to take 5000+ points to book.

 

[VacationForever]

@grrrah Now that I am home from lunch, I have pulled Waiohai's points chart for booking. As you can see, you get some pocket change for reserving at Waiohai but not as much as looking at points that are being awarded for ownership at the resort. You get more pocket change for less popular period. I assume Princeville's number to be somewhat similar.

 

[JIMinNC]

In years past, didn't we see some SDO deposits into RCI much further out than 12 months?

I can't address you specific question on SDO, but I'm familiar with a similar situation within the Hilton HGVC system. Back ten years or so ago when we owned at Kaanapali Beach Club before we sold that and bought into MVC, we would often deposit our KBC week into RCI and trade into one of the Big Island HGVC units. HGVC would do bulk banks into RCI in roughly February for almost all of the following calendar year (for example, they would bulk bank their 2013 weeks in February 2012). So, if you could go online the day they made that bulk deposit, you could do an instant exchange for almost any date you wanted in the following year. That was even though HGVC owners can't reserve their home week more than 12 months out.

My understanding was the way they can do that was the program manager has the right in the T&Cs to forecast usage and do bulk banks based on that expected usage. If you recall, MVC has language like that in their T&Cs on forecasting and reserving. I assume Vistana might have that same right?

 

[timsi]

I can't address you specific question on SDO, but I'm familiar with a similar situation within the Hilton HGVC system. Back ten years or so ago when we owned at Kaanapali Beach Club before we sold that and bought into MVC, we would often deposit our KBC week into RCI and trade into one of the Big Island HGVC units. HGVC would do bulk banks into RCI in roughly February for almost all of the following calendar year (for example, they would bulk bank their 2013 weeks in February 2012). So, if you could go online the day they made that bulk deposit, you could do an instant exchange for almost any date you wanted in the following year. That was even though HGVC owners can't reserve their home week more than 12 months out.

My understanding was the way they can do that was the program manager has the right in the T&Cs to forecast usage and do bulk banks based on that expected usage. If you recall, MVC has language like that in their T&Cs on forecasting and reserving. I assume Vistana might have that same right?

The Vistana resorts have specific rules, they do not allow the developer to deposit before the window opens for the owners.

 

[dioxide45]

I wonder if Trust Point owners are able to reserve this new Vistana inventory? I know the option may not be available online, but what if you call?

 

[GregT]

I did a quick search in the Sightings forum and all WPORV bulk banks that I found were within 12 months of check-in. While not conclusive, it certainly does support the thesis above that Vistana isn’t going to release any reservations more than 12 months out.

It will be interesting to see if Marriott continues this practice or tries to do something to make the Trust weeks available earlier than 12 months out.

Best,

Greg

 

[Dean]

I did a quick search in the Sightings forum and all WPORV bulk banks that I found were within 12 months of check-in. While not conclusive, it certainly does support the thesis above that Vistana isn’t going to release any reservations more than 12 months out.

It will be interesting to see if Marriott continues this practice or tries to do something to make the Trust weeks available earlier than 12 months out.

Best,

Greg

The reality is that often even restrictions written into the POS are often not difficult to change on the management company side (talking in general) and that most of the time, the management company has close to 100% control over reservation procedures. Since the trust is separate, I'd think that would give them even more latitude.

 

[dioxide45]

The reality is that often even restrictions written into the POS are often not difficult to change on the management company side (talking in general) and that most of the time, the management company has close to 100% control over reservation procedures. Since the trust is separate, I'd think that would give them even more latitude.

But the trust is still bound by the reservation limitations set forth in the resort CCRs and Reservation Procedures. It was already posted in an old message a letter from someone inside corp to a resort General Manager that Vistana inventory would all be available at the 12 month mark.

 

[Dean]

But the trust is still bound by the reservation limitations set forth in the resort CCRs and Reservation Procedures. It was already posted in an old message a letter from someone inside corp to a resort General Manager that Vistana inventory would all be available at the 12 month mark.

I can't speak to Vistana/Westin but I have yet to see a POS that didn't have dramatic flexibility for the reservation system to shift at the whim of the management company. I've also never seen a POS that wasn't relatively easy to change if the management company truly wanted to do so. I'm sure there are exceptions but I doubt this is one. I'd point out that the earlier MVC resorts did not have the 13 month option included and that changed much later and that the trust was created much later also altering reservations and timing across the board affecting members of weeks as well due to competition for reservations. So I wouldn't hold out anything as an absolute that wasn't obviously and specifically detrimental to the entire system/membership at large AND specifically excluded in the POS. And I'd specifically discount any effectiveness of anyone who says they'll sue, this wasn't the system they signed up for, they'll complain or class action. Timeshares change and sometimes it doesn't work for everyone with what it evolves into, that's part of the risk we all agreed to when we dove in. Please no one take this as a personal reflection or lack of sympathy, just as my opinion on the realities involved.

 

[VacationForever]

POS ? [deleted] Point of Sales?

 

[Dean]

POS ? [Deleted] Point of Sales?

Public Offering Statement

 

[VacationForever]

Public Offering Statement

Thank you.

 

[Dean]

Thank you.

Sure but you explanation might be closer to the truth from a members standpoint.

 

[dioxide45]

I can't speak to Vistana/Westin but I have yet to see a POS that didn't have dramatic flexibility for the reservation system to shift at the whim of the management company. I've also never seen a POS that wasn't relatively easy to change if the management company truly wanted to do so. I'm sure there are exceptions but I doubt this is one. I'd point out that the earlier MVC resorts did not have the 13 month option included and that changed much later and that the trust was created much later also altering reservations and timing across the board affecting members of weeks as well due to competition for reservations. So I wouldn't hold out anything as an absolute that wasn't obviously and specifically detrimental to the entire system/membership at large AND specifically excluded in the POS. And I'd specifically discount any effectiveness of anyone who says they'll sue, this wasn't the system they signed up for, they'll complain or class action. Timeshares change and sometimes it doesn't work for everyone with what it evolves into, that's part of the risk we all agreed to when we dove in. Please no one take this as a personal reflection or lack of sympathy, just as my opinion on the realities involved.

We aren't necessarily just talking about POS here, it is CC&R and a change to those often require a vote of the majority of ownership.

 

[Dean]

We aren't necessarily just talking about POS here, it is CC&R and a change to those often require a vote of the majority of ownership.

As I said, I haven't looked at these specifically but the ones I've seen for others would only require a vote of the majority of the membership if it was a clear negative for the membership as a whole, not just a portion. I don't think one could easily make that argument here. We'll see if anything happens, as I've said before, it's going to get real interesting once things actually start changing.

 

[bizaro86]

I can't speak to Vistana/Westin but I have yet to see a POS that didn't have dramatic flexibility for the reservation system to shift at the whim of the management company. I've also never seen a POS that wasn't relatively easy to change if the management company truly wanted to do so. I'm sure there are exceptions but I doubt this is one. I'd point out that the earlier MVC resorts did not have the 13 month option included and that changed much later and that the trust was created much later also altering reservations and timing across the board affecting members of weeks as well due to competition for reservations. So I wouldn't hold out anything as an absolute that wasn't obviously and specifically detrimental to the entire system/membership at large AND specifically excluded in the POS. And I'd specifically discount any effectiveness of anyone who says they'll sue, this wasn't the system they signed up for, they'll complain or class action. Timeshares change and sometimes it doesn't work for everyone with what it evolves into, that's part of the risk we all agreed to when we dove in. Please no one take this as a personal reflection or lack of sympathy, just as my opinion on the realities involved.

Your opinion is certainly noted. As a comment, I would offer the note that Vistana tried to start charging fees for guest names on all reservations. A number of the original Sheraton resorts have free guests in the CCRs, and that was pointed out by eagle eyed Tuggers who complained en masse and had it changed back, and to this day VSN reservations pay a guest fee and home resort doesn't.

So I guess I would say that complaining/threatening a class action is useless, with the exception that if you have an irrefutable legal position to stand on even a timeshare developer will back down with enough complaints, and this specific one has in the past. I haven't combed through the documents to be sure, but if reservations aren't allowed in the CCRs past 12 months Marriott can't just change that because its convenient for them - the SDO CCRs have a mechanism for changing them included, and I doubt giving 13 months to the trust would pass.