Recorded Trust Documents

[AlmostRetired]

A -Marriott can pull deposits from II to fulfill DC Points reservation requests. HHI Weeks are strong traders in II so that inventory bucket is already decent.

B - Plus Marriott can exercise ROFR on most HHI inventory when it's resold, resulting in them acquiring inventory at comparatively lower prices and then conveying it to the DC Trust (rather than Marriott needing to offer enrollment of them to the resale buyers.)

C - It won't be a surprise if we continue to see various creative enrollment offers from Marriott, but I don't think that the future success of the DC is going to require that enrollment of post-2010 resales be made available.

B - I didn't mean to make this an HHI discussion. I was just using this as an example. I have never traded my legacy week for points but I have read enough to think that point access during prime time at many resorts is a big issue. Are you suggesting that the inventory through II or legacy week for point exchanges are sufficient to cover most requests? If the answer yes, my post was based on wrong information. If the answer is no, if MVCI had a ROFR strategy for adding prime weeks into inventory, wouldn't the point total for many of the pre 2010 locations be higher in total point value driven by prime time acquisitions?

A - I own Monarch Summer. If I have a trade request in II to trade my Monarch for YY and the YY becomes available, Marriott can jump ahead of me to get that YY. I was not aware of this. I thought they have to get in the queue and be treated like everyone else in the queue.

C - I would guess that the majority of high point value customers are legacy owners with some adding points to achieve various levels. If I am wrong, stop here. If this is true, this would suggest an age element to both legacy and new customers. New customers tend to to be younger and have less money, not until the profile of many of us when we purchased years ago. As the cost per point goes up, I wonder what will drive the future success of point ownership for younger customers.

 

[Hobee]

Breakdown by Property

Resort.....................................Points
Grand Chateau..........................52,703,750
Ko'Olina...............................30,045,750
Newport Coast..........................29,394,500
Oceana Palms...........................23,391,250
Grande Vista...........................19,272,750
Kalanipu'u.............................18,293,500
Timber Lodge...........................17,677,250
Shadow Ridge II........................13,429,500
Maui Ocean Club........................11,981,250
Ritz Carlton Club - Vail...............11,813,500
The Mayflower..........................10,748,750
Crystal Shores..........................9,598,250
Cypress Harbour.........................9,156,000
Maui Ocean Club Sequel..................8,773,500
Ocean Pointe............................8,588,000
Harbour Lake............................8,506,500
Shadow Ridge............................8,053,750
Desert Springs II.......................7,686,750
Canyon Villas...........................5,820,500
Kauai Beach Club........................5,204,250
Ocean Watch.............................4,656,250
Willow Ridge Lodge......................4,552,000
Waiohai.................................4,446,000
Grand Residence Lake Tahoe..............4,322,250
Desert Springs I........................4,299,000
BeachPlace Towers.......................3,734,000
Barony Beach Club.......................3,339,750
Grande Ocean............................3,159,250
Fairway Villas..........................2,827,750
Ritz Carlton Club - San Francisco.......2,678,000
Frenchman's Cove........................2,553,750
Surfwatch...............................2,532,500
Villas at Doral.........................2,423,750
Mountain Side...........................2,249,250
Royal Palms.............................2,134,750
Lakeshore Reserve.......................2,021,000
Summit Watch............................1,996,000
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas...........1,841,250
Legends Edge............................1,588,500
Manor Club..............................1,558,500
Sabal Palms.............................1,545,500
Ritz Carlton Club - Lake Tahoe..........1,462,750
Mountain Valley Lodge...................1,248,750
Manor Club Sequel.......................1,083,000
Streamside..............................1,007,500
Monarch at Sea Pines......................995,750
Imperial Palms............................714,500
Harbour Pointe............................665,000
Harbour Club..............................303,750
Heritage Club.............................267,500
Ritz Carlton Club - St Thomas Suites......243,250
Sunset Pointe.............................159,500
Grand Total...........................378,749,500

This very interesting. Kind of suspected Grand Chateau and Ko’Olina at the top and some of the smaller (but nice) HHI resorts with less Trust ownership. I was surprised that Newport Coast was near the top. How is this information obtained?

 

[Fasttr]

This very interesting. Kind of suspected Grand Chateau and Ko’Olina at the top and some of the smaller (but nice) HHI resorts with less Trust ownership. I was surprised that Newport Coast was near the top. How is this information obtained?

Hopefully @dioxide45 will chime in, but I believe he tracked conveyances to the trust via recordings in Orange County FL.

 

[StevenTing]

Florida deeds. Deeds that are assigned to the trust.

 

[GregT]

Steven is correct. @dioxide45 figured out how to find the filings showing the weeks that were assigned/deposited to the trust. He built a system that read the PDF files and converted them to a spreadsheet. He shared the master spreadsheet with me because he is a good guy.

It was time consuming but interesting and we would debate what it was showing us. We would see huge deposits when a property opened a new building and significant points were deposited.

But it was inconclusive.

At the end of the day, Marriott had found ways to get access to the vital inventory needed (Trust/enrolled weeks/II trades) to make the point system work - Bravo Marriott!

I think a lot about this stuff - and I finally decided the inventory will be there - Ko Olina is highly accessible, plus a few other properties I really like (Ritz STT - especially with Trust point) and I stopped analyzing.

I do not know if Jeremy continues to update the spreadsheet, but it was interesting in the early days.

Best,

Greg

 

[dioxide45]

Everyone here is correct. Each conveyance of points is recorded in Orange County Florida as a Notice. This was done at the resort level, usually twice a year. It was a lot of work, but with some help from @GregT I was able to use OCR to capture much of the data. Even with that, it required a lot of manual effort to convert all the conveyances in to the spreadsheet and it has been a number of years since I have updated the list.

 

[Hobee]

Thank you for that explanation and your previous efforts. Seems then that it not part of MVCI’s annual reports or disclosures.

 

[Fasttr]

Seems then that it not part of MVCI’s annual reports or disclosures.

The disclosures I have seen from MVC only list the resorts where they have Trust inventory. So it could be one unit week and it gets listed the same as if they owned the entire resort. Not of much help.

 

[Hobee]

The disclosures I have seen from MVC only list the resorts where they have Trust inventory. So it could be one unit week and it gets listed the same as if they owned the entire resort. Not of much help.

Thanks Fasttr

 

[James P]

So... conceptual question.

I own a red week at Desert Springs Villas I. I've used it consistently for the last 10 years without trading. I ALWAYS reserve the week that coincides with my kids' spring break, which usually means staying up late or getting up very early 12 months prior to ensure that I get the week I want.

Based on the points in the trust, it looks like Desert Springs Villas I (DSVI) is still almost entirely legacy owners.

In theory, if Marriott keeps buying up red weeks to add to the DC trust, do they have the ability to crowd out my reservation? For example, my preferred week often coincides with the Coachella Music Festival, which, during the weekends, results in every hotel room in the valley being sold out. As an owner of a single week, I can make a reservation 12 months in advance. Owners of multiple weeks can reserve 13 months in advance, provided that the reservations are consecutive or concurrent.

Is Marriott able to snap up all of the "good" dates for red weeks in order to maximize the DC points they can charge?

I didn't buy my week to profit or game the system; I just want to take my kids to the desert when they're out of school. However, before COVID, I noticed that my 2 bedroom was retailing on the Marriott website for about $900 a night for the week that I usually reserve. Does Marriott have the ability to arbitrage and crowd out my ability to make a reservation?

 

[Dean]

So... conceptual question.

I own a red week at Desert Springs Villas I. I've used it consistently for the last 10 years without trading. I ALWAYS reserve the week that coincides with my kids' spring break, which usually means staying up late or getting up very early 12 months prior to ensure that I get the week I want.

Based on the points in the trust, it looks like Desert Springs Villas I (DSVI) is still almost entirely legacy owners.

In theory, if Marriott keeps buying up red weeks to add to the DC trust, do they have the ability to crowd out my reservation? For example, my preferred week often coincides with the Coachella Music Festival, which, during the weekends, results in every hotel room in the valley being sold out. As an owner of a single week, I can make a reservation 12 months in advance. Owners of multiple weeks can reserve 13 months in advance, provided that the reservations are consecutive or concurrent.

Is Marriott able to snap up all of the "good" dates for red weeks in order to maximize the DC points they can charge?

I didn't buy my week to profit or game the system; I just want to take my kids to the desert when they're out of school. However, before COVID, I noticed that my 2 bedroom was retailing on the Marriott website for about $900 a night for the week that I usually reserve. Does Marriott have the ability to arbitrage and crowd out my ability to make a reservation?

I think the answer as I understand the system is probably not. They have an advantage if they so choose to reserve any points reservation they control though under the same rules as anyone using points. Realistically your risk is that those using points could reserve that week far more than other weeks and other owners using the 13 month reservation option that you mentioned could do the same. Remember once a member elects points, those points can be used to secure any week in that season. Just like the demand on the weeks side is higher for that week, so too is that week on the points side. Plus a large portion of points owners will also have the 13 month reservation options. Obviously there are limitations including the # of owners who elect points and do so early enough for this to be an issue and the limitation on how many weeks are released at 13 months out. I do think you're at risk for the week becoming more difficult to reserve possibly to the point of you not getting it some years. And some of those that reserve, owners and with points, will put that week up for rental as is their option.

 

[GregT]

So... conceptual question.

I own a red week at Desert Springs Villas I. I've used it consistently for the last 10 years without trading. I ALWAYS reserve the week that coincides with my kids' spring break, which usually means staying up late or getting up very early 12 months prior to ensure that I get the week I want.

Based on the points in the trust, it looks like Desert Springs Villas I (DSVI) is still almost entirely legacy owners.

In theory, if Marriott keeps buying up red weeks to add to the DC trust, do they have the ability to crowd out my reservation? For example, my preferred week often coincides with the Coachella Music Festival, which, during the weekends, results in every hotel room in the valley being sold out. As an owner of a single week, I can make a reservation 12 months in advance. Owners of multiple weeks can reserve 13 months in advance, provided that the reservations are consecutive or concurrent.

Is Marriott able to snap up all of the "good" dates for red weeks in order to maximize the DC points they can charge?

I didn't buy my week to profit or game the system; I just want to take my kids to the desert when they're out of school. However, before COVID, I noticed that my 2 bedroom was retailing on the Marriott website for about $900 a night for the week that I usually reserve. Does Marriott have the ability to arbitrage and crowd out my ability to make a reservation?

Years ago, when we were seeking to understand inventory loading and availability (circa 2011-2012), we posed this question to Customer Advocacy. The response we received was that they would only reserve a consistent percentage each week and would not overweight their reservations for the higher demands weeks. I believed this then and I still believe it -- Marriott has consistently applied the system in a matter to not disenfranchise smaller owners and they give great consideration to keeping the system fairly implemented.

So, I think you can continue to expect your normal competition for weeks and think you will enjoy your week for years to come!

Best,

Greg

 

[James P]

Years ago, when we were seeking to understand inventory loading and availability (circa 2011-2012), we posed this question to Customer Advocacy. The response we received was that they would only reserve a consistent percentage each week and would not overweight their reservations for the higher demands weeks. I believed this then and I still believe it -- Marriott has consistently applied the system in a matter to not disenfranchise smaller owners and they give great consideration to keeping the system fairly implemented.

So, I think you can continue to expect your normal competition for weeks and think you will enjoy your week for years to come!

Best,

Greg

Thank you for your replies, both you and Dean. My first post ever on a thread that hasn't had a reply for 5 months. What a community!

So... in theory, if Marriott has a quantity of red weeks added to the DC trust, they basically leave it up to the DC points members to fight with the rest of us for reservations?

If this is the case, I have to say that I'm at ease. Marriott probably owns less than 10% (based on previous trust disclosures) of DSVI weeks, so if they aren't front running the dates for the Coachella Music Festival, I'm completely happy with the way things are. From what I've seen in the winter resorts in CA and UT, Marriott seems to know about "ski week"... (many affluent school districts on the west coast make president's day an entire week off), and they charge a premium accordingly.

 

[Dean]

Thank you for your replies, both you and Dean. My first post ever on a thread that hasn't had a reply for 5 months. What a community!

So... in theory, if Marriott has a quantity of red weeks added to the DC trust, they basically leave it up to the DC points members to fight with the rest of us for reservations?

If this is the case, I have to say that I'm at ease. Marriott probably owns less than 10% (based on previous trust disclosures) of DSVI weeks, so if they aren't front running the dates for the Coachella Music Festival, I'm completely happy with the way things are. From what I've seen in the winter resorts in CA and UT, Marriott seems to know about "ski week"... (many affluent school districts on the west coast make president's day an entire week off), and they charge a premium accordingly.

It's not what Marriott owns that's the issue but more how many owners there are enrolled and take point which would open inventory up to any and all points owners.

 

[GregT]

You can access the recorded trust documents on the Orange County FL comptroller website. Includes actual unit information of what was conveyed to the trust.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/web/

I have done the work for you and provided the document numbers. Just search by document number.

I am beginning to watch the website again to see if Marriott is going to deposit Starwood weeks into the Trust. I'm documenting the search criteria for two purposes:

1) so other TUGgers can run their own searches
2) so I don't forget how to do it (because I did, and have spent the last 30 minutes trying to recapture it)

@dioxide45 is the genius here in figuring out how to do this and it's a great resource.

Click into the website noted above in his quote and then the search criteria (that I use) are as follows:

1) Enter the date range you wish to search
2) In the Grantor field, enter "Marriott" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
3) In the Grantee field, enter "FSB" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
4) Leave all other fields blank (these fields are: Either Party/Document #/Book Page)

Because there are hundreds of thousands of records in the system, this identifies the entries where the Grantor is "Marriott Ownership Resorts Inc" and Grantee is "First American Trust FSB, MVC Trust Owners Associated, Land Trust". You may get some other noise where the criteria match, but many of them will be our Deposits.

The records that we want are "Notice" under the Description column. As a test run if you wish to run the experiment, the last deposits that I see were from early February 2022.

Good luck TUGgers -- still curious how the new system evolves and very curious to see if we start to see Starwood weeks deposited into the Trust. The conference call suggesting that they expect to continue to recycle weeks would make it a logical decision to expand the recycling into Westin and Sheraton too. Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg

 

[dioxide45]

I also find that just entering "MVC" in the Grantee field and then unchecking the box to be able to search by specific documents also works well. I check the "Notice" box so it will only search for conveyance notices. This seems to pull up all past trust conveyance documents for weeks that Marriott has conveyed to date.

 

[GregT]

I also find that just entering "MVC" in the Grantee field and then unchecking the box to be able to search by specific documents also works well. I check the "Notice" box so it will only search for conveyance notices. This seems to pull up all past trust conveyance documents for weeks that Marriott has conveyed to date.

Jeremy, that's a better approach -- it picked up a couple Notices that don't have FSB -- not sure why, but fantastic!

Will keep an eye out for Starwood deposits...... thanks for posting!

Best,

Greg

 

[DanCali]

I also find that just entering "MVC" in the Grantee field and then unchecking the box to be able to search by specific documents also works well. I check the "Notice" box so it will only search for conveyance notices. This seems to pull up all past trust conveyance documents for weeks that Marriott has conveyed to date.

1) Enter the date range you wish to search
2) In the Grantor field, enter "Marriott" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
3) In the Grantee field, enter "FSB" and select Wildcard Search (and not Exact Match)
4) Leave all other fields blank (these fields are: Either Party/Document #/Book Page)

Any reason why the Grantor for these would necessarily be Marriott* and not Vistana* or VSE* (Vistana Signature Experiences) or SVO* (Starwood Vacation Ownership) or something else?

On our Kierland purchase we had "VSE VILLAS ARIZONA INC" as the grantor in the Maricopa County recording - and that was post-Marriott's acquisition of Vistana.

 

[dioxide45]

Any reason why the Grantor for these would necessarily be Marriott* and not Vistana* or VSE* (Vistana Signature Experiences) or SVO* (Starwood Vacation Ownership) or something else?

On our Kierland purchase we had "VSE VILLAS ARIZONA INC" as the grantor in the Maricopa County recording - and that was post-Marriott's acquisition of Vistana.

Yeah, quite possible that "Marriott" won't be in the Grantor name, but if they use the same trust as for DC, "MVC" should continue to be there.

 

[GregT]

Just checked the website and still nothing deposited into the Trust....interesting. They deposited weeks into the Trust well before they went live in June 2010...different pattern if they truly start offering reservations on August 1st.

Best,

Greg

 

[dioxide45]

Just checked the website and still nothing deposited into the Trust....interesting. They deposited weeks into the Trust well before they went live in June 2010...different pattern if they truly start offering reservations on August 1st.

Best,

Greg

I checked not long ago too and saw no VIstana weeks being added to the DC trust yet. I suspect they will rely on exchange to facilitate mos reservations out of the gate.

 

[kozykritter]

Given that Abound is an exchange company, it wouldn't make sense to put those weeks into the trust. The whole integration is based upon exchanging Vistana inventory for MVC inventory and vice versa so would have to go into the exchange company to make it work. I wouldn't think you would have to transfer ownership title to do that type of exchanging.

 

[dioxide45]

Given that Abound is an exchange company, it wouldn't make sense to put those weeks into the trust. The whole integration is based upon exchanging Vistana inventory for MVC inventory and vice versa so would have to go into the exchange company to make it work. I wouldn't think you would have to transfer ownership title to do that type of exchanging.

But Marriott will continue to reacquire Vistana weeks; either through foreclosure, buyback or ROFR. They have to go somewhere if they plan to stop selling Sheraton and Westin Flex after the 7th. Oh, the 7th is the new date I heard today for the cutover...

 

[kozykritter]

But Marriott will continue to reacquire Vistana weeks; either through foreclosure, buyback or ROFR. They have to go somewhere if they plan to stop selling Sheraton and Westin Flex after the 7th. Oh, the 7th is the new date I heard today for the cutover...

I guess we'll see where they put them after the 7th

 

[dougp26364]

Perhaps they’re planning to keep both systems separate, only depositing inventory into the combined points program on request based on availability.
example: unsold Vistana weeks remain in the Vistana system until there is a request by a DC member for that week. Even though there not technically in the “trust”, as an unsold week they’ll be available to view to those searching. In this respect it’s strictly an exchange.
If that’s the case, it’s surprising it’s taken so long to make it happen. The length of time spent trying to integrate the systems has me believing that ILG will be, in some way, blended into the trust.