Recorded Trust Documents

[Eric B]

My guess would be that the Vistana CC&Rs don't address reservation periods to universally prohibit 12-month bookings. My WSJ VGV fixed weeks are automatically reserved for me at 18 months and can float at 12 months; I understand that at least some SBP owners can reserve 2 years in advance. There are a few I'm aware of that have some restrictions but it seems to be on a resort-specific basis.

 

[Dean]

Your opinion is certainly noted. As a comment, I would offer the note that Vistana tried to start charging fees for guest names on all reservations. A number of the original Sheraton resorts have free guests in the CCRs, and that was pointed out by eagle eyed Tuggers who complained en masse and had it changed back, and to this day VSN reservations pay a guest fee and home resort doesn't.

So I guess I would say that complaining/threatening a class action is useless, with the exception that if you have an irrefutable legal position to stand on even a timeshare developer will back down with enough complaints, and this specific one has in the past. I haven't combed through the documents to be sure, but if reservations aren't allowed in the CCRs past 12 months Marriott can't just change that because its convenient for them - the SDO CCRs have a mechanism for changing them included, and I doubt giving 13 months to the trust would pass.

Thanks. If I understand your post correctly, this was a situation that was in specific violation of the legal documents as they stood at the time. In that circumstance I think it would be fairly easy to prevail. They could potentially have changed the documents first and it's very possible the outcome would have been different. This happened with DVC for OKW & VB back at the turn of the century where the majority of owners at those 2 resorts had free Disney tickets through 1999. DVC first interpreted that borrowed points could not be used for those tickets but it was changed because there was no basis for that decision that could be supported by the POS. But that's not a situation I'm referencing. What I'm saying is 2 things, that there is a mechanism for changing the POS which often isn't difficult for things that are not obviously detrimental to the Membership as a whole and that there is a LOT of flexibility in reservation decisions for every such set of documents I've ever seen and I suspect here as well.

 

[bizaro86]

Thanks. If I understand your post correctly, this was a situation that was in specific violation of the legal documents as they stood at the time. In that circumstance I think it would be fairly easy to prevail. They could potentially have changed the documents first and it's very possible the outcome would have been different. This happened with DVC for OKW & VB back at the turn of the century where the majority of owners at those 2 resorts had free Disney tickets through 1999. DVC first interpreted that borrowed points could not be used for those tickets but it was changed because there was no basis for that decision that could be supported by the POS. But that's not a situation I'm referencing. What I'm saying is 2 things, that there is a mechanism for changing the POS which often isn't difficult for things that are not obviously detrimental to the Membership as a whole and that there is a LOT of flexibility in reservation decisions for every such set of documents I've ever seen and I suspect here as well.

I looked up the CCRs for SDO. While the right to rent a unit is enshrined in those documents recorded on title, the reservations procedures are indeed left to the associations "Rules and Regulations" which are almost certainly much easier to amend. I think all owners should have the same reservation period (and will push for 13 months for deeded owners if they give that to trust owners) but it is certainly a weaker protection, which is disappointing.

 

[dioxide45]

I looked up the CCRs for SDO. While the right to rent a unit is enshrined in those documents recorded on title, the reservations procedures are indeed left to the associations "Rules and Regulations" which are almost certainly much easier to amend. I think all owners should have the same reservation period (and will push for 13 months for deeded owners if they give that to trust owners) but it is certainly a weaker protection, which is disappointing.

I think that is the only way they could do it, or they could do something like they have on the Marriott side where consecutive or concurrent reservations from more than one ownership qualifies for 13 month reservations. But these changes would apply to all owners and not just the trust. At a minimum, this would also likely require a vote by the board who could also voluntarily take it to the larger ownership for a vote.

What I understand, from when Marriott amended most of the Reservation Procedures at the MVC properties shortly after DC rollout in 2010, is that they had to have board approval to amend the procedures. The only difference here is that the procedures amended on Marriott weeks all those years ago really wasn't much of a change, where adding a new 13 month reservation window to Vistana weeks would be a pretty significant change.

 

[bizaro86]

I think that is the only way they could do it, or they could do something like they have on the Marriott side where consecutive or concurrent reservations from more than one ownership qualifies for 13 month reservations. But these changes would apply to all owners and not just the trust. At a minimum, this would also likely require a vote by the board who could also voluntarily take it to the larger ownership for a vote.

Unfortunately, my experience is that TS boards (especially the hotel chain ones) rubber stamp developer requests. SDO isn't independently controlled and I don't expect any push back.

I do think they'd have to offer equal protection, but that could just be the "book a string" provision, which would allow the DC trust to book a huge string containing all the good weeks.

 

[dioxide45]

Unfortunately, my experience is that TS boards (especially the hotel chain ones) rubber stamp developer requests. SDO isn't independently controlled and I don't expect any push back.

I do think they'd have to offer equal protection, but that could just be the "book a string" provision, which would allow the DC trust to book a huge string containing all the good weeks.

Marriott does however have limits on the percentage of inventory the release at 13 months. So if they did change reservation procedures, I would expect that type of limitation to still be in place.

Another thing, do they even have the appetite to change it? Perhaps not, given pushback they could get from owners. Especially single week owners at the resorts.

 

[bizaro86]

Marriott does however have limits on the percentage of inventory the release at 13 months. So if they did change reservation procedures, I would expect that type of limitation to still be in place.

My inclination to trust that Marriott will balance my interests as a resale owner of something sold two developers ago equally with those buying what they're selling now isn't very high. 50% of SDO inventory for the good weeks going into the trust at 13 months plus a string could be a huge degradation. Inventory got way tighter at sdo when sheraton flex came in, so I'm not optimistic about this change.

 

[dioxide45]

My inclination to trust that Marriott will balance my interests as a resale owner of something sold two developers ago equally with those buying what they're selling now isn't very high. 50% of SDO inventory for the good weeks going into the trust at 13 months plus a string could be a huge degradation. Inventory got way tighter at sdo when sheraton flex came in, so I'm not optimistic about this change.

It isn't even a change, just speculation. We have seen written word from a Marriott Vacations executive that Vistana reservations will be at 12 months inside Abound. So most of this right here is just guessing, and for some it's perhaps wishful thinking.

 

[Dean]

I looked up the CCRs for SDO. While the right to rent a unit is enshrined in those documents recorded on title, the reservations procedures are indeed left to the associations "Rules and Regulations" which are almost certainly much easier to amend. I think all owners should have the same reservation period (and will push for 13 months for deeded owners if they give that to trust owners) but it is certainly a weaker protection, which is disappointing.

I've never seen one that didn't. There is anther complexity though. Each resort has it's own legalities and then the overlay exchange system has rules as well. Normally the overlay system is EASY to change, the individual resorts can be more difficult depending. Even if a change is forthcoming, I would expect changes or potential changes across the board for all owners. Much like when MVC started allowing 13 month reservations which is clearly negative to a subset of owners. Regardless of what does or does not happen, it's very likely the changes will be negative to some owners. I recall the thread's back in 2010 when MVC rolled out the points system.

Unfortunately, my experience is that TS boards (especially the hotel chain ones) rubber stamp developer requests. SDO isn't independently controlled and I don't expect any push back.

I do think they'd have to offer equal protection, but that could just be the "book a string" provision, which would allow the DC trust to book a huge string containing all the good weeks.

Agreed and part of my contention that such changes would likely not be difficult. It would have to be clearly outside the rules AND negative to the masses to be an issueeI would think. Though the specifics of the underlying individual resort systems could be different (and more or less difficult to change) than I've seen elsewhere.

 

[dioxide45]

Here is confirmation from the FAQ posted today on the MVC website;

 

[Dean]

Here is confirmation from the FAQ posted today on the MVC website;
View attachment 63138

Thanks for posting the info.

 

[dioxide45]

I find this footnote on the new Vistana point charts to be interesting. It is even there for resorts that have been added to the MVC Trust;

 

[kozykritter]

I find this footnote on the new Vistana point charts to be interesting. It is even there for resorts that have been added to the MVC Trust;
View attachment 63157

Going by the placement of the "only", I'm guessing that is meant to convey that you can't use Club Points through Interval to exchange into it. They've now extended that prohibition to Vistana properties as well, as someone predicted along the way.

 

[dioxide45]

Going by the placement of the "only", I'm guessing that is meant to convey that you can't use Club Points through Interval to exchange into it. They've now extended that prohibition to Vistana properties as well, as someone predicted along the way.

In the MVC system they have an indicator of E an T to indicate Exchange and Trust. I get the impression that this footnote is indicating that these aren't available as Trust reservations. I wouldn't expect the point chart to indicate anything in regard to Interval International. But what you say is a possible scenario.

 

[dougp26364]

As to the 13 month window there are a couple of things I think need to be considered.

1. Marriott allows owners to elect points further out than 12 months. If an owner elects to deposit their unit into Abound for points, that unit will become available under the Abound booking rules, which will allow for the 13 month window. At this point I’ve deposited the majority of my weeks into the trust points pool as far in advance as we could. Considerably further out than 12 months. They KNOW that inventory is available as they will make it available to trust owners at 13 months

2.Inventory deposited into the trust will follow trust rules, not SDO, Westin or Vistana rules. Some resorts that might have been very easy to obtain could become less so as time rolls on. I’ve noticed this happen with Marriott post DC program, but it’s taken years for inventory to morph into what it is today from what it was 20 years ago.

3. I assume management companies keep track of booking preference and inventory demand using a dynamic tracking system. They know when/where excess inventory will be available. It’s likely that will play a role in booking 13 months in advance. Times where owners are heavily competing for weeks isn’t as likely to show up at 13 months as lower demand inventory where a resort might sit at 75% capacity.
Of course this can be tricky. CoVid causing cancellations and owners scrambling to use a backlog of saved points can really mess with these numbers. Initially I would guess Marriott wouldn’t rely on this method to determine 13 month availability

Keep in mind this is only an educated guess and not fact. It’s my opinion on what’s likely to happen based on past experience and reasoning

 

[kozykritter]

As to the 13 month window there are a couple of things I think need to be considered.

1. Marriott allows owners to elect points further out than 12 months. If an owner elects to deposit their unit into Abound for points, that unit will become available under the Abound booking rules, which will allow for the 13 month window. At this point I’ve deposited the majority of my weeks into the trust points pool as far in advance as we could. Considerably further out than 12 months. They KNOW that inventory is available as they will make it available to trust owners at 13 months

2.Inventory deposited into the trust will follow trust rules, not SDO, Westin or Vistana rules. Some resorts that might have been very easy to obtain could become less so as time rolls on. I’ve noticed this happen with Marriott post DC program, but it’s taken years for inventory to morph into what it is today from what it was 20 years ago.

3. I assume management companies keep track of booking preference and inventory demand using a dynamic tracking system. They know when/where excess inventory will be available. It’s likely that will play a role in booking 13 months in advance. Times where owners are heavily competing for weeks isn’t as likely to show up at 13 months as lower demand inventory where a resort might sit at 75% capacity.
Of course this can be tricky. CoVid causing cancellations and owners scrambling to use a backlog of saved points can really mess with these numbers. Initially I would guess Marriott wouldn’t rely on this method to determine 13 month availability

Keep in mind this is only an educated guess and not fact. It’s my opinion on what’s likely to happen based on past experience and reasoning

For #2, I see where you could guess that but is not correct based upon the Abound Exchange procedures released by MVC today and the accompanying FAQs about Abound on the MVC owner website. They said in clear terms that nobody will be permitted to book Vistana inventory sooner than 12 months out through Abound, same rights that the Vistana owners have themselves for booking their ownership.

 

[daviator]

As to the 13 month window there are a couple of things I think need to be considered.

1. Marriott allows owners to elect points further out than 12 months. If an owner elects to deposit their unit into Abound for points, that unit will become available under the Abound booking rules, which will allow for the 13 month window. At this point I’ve deposited the majority of my weeks into the trust points pool as far in advance as we could. Considerably further out than 12 months. They KNOW that inventory is available as they will make it available to trust owners at 13 months

2.Inventory deposited into the trust will follow trust rules, not SDO, Westin or Vistana rules. Some resorts that might have been very easy to obtain could become less so as time rolls on. I’ve noticed this happen with Marriott post DC program, but it’s taken years for inventory to morph into what it is today from what it was 20 years ago.

3. I assume management companies keep track of booking preference and inventory demand using a dynamic tracking system. They know when/where excess inventory will be available. It’s likely that will play a role in booking 13 months in advance. Times where owners are heavily competing for weeks isn’t as likely to show up at 13 months as lower demand inventory where a resort might sit at 75% capacity.
Of course this can be tricky. CoVid causing cancellations and owners scrambling to use a backlog of saved points can really mess with these numbers. Initially I would guess Marriott wouldn’t rely on this method to determine 13 month availability

Keep in mind this is only an educated guess and not fact. It’s my opinion on what’s likely to happen based on past experience and reasoning

Agree with @kozykritter. The restrictions limiting booking to 12 months on the Vistana properties are baked into the CC&Rs that are recorded with each deed. MVC can deposit inventory (deeds) into the trust, but they are still bound by the terms and conditions attached to those deeds, they can't circumvent the CC&Rs. Owners of Vistana weeks cannot book earlier than 12 months, so MVC or its trust, as owners of many Vistana weeks, are no less bound by the same restrictions. MVC knows this, which is why they've made it quite clear that nobody will be able to book Vistana properties more than 12 months in advance.

 

[dougp26364]

Agree with @kozykritter. The restrictions limiting booking to 12 months on the Vistana properties are baked into the CC&Rs that are recorded with each deed. MVC can deposit inventory (deeds) into the trust, but they are still bound by the terms and conditions attached to those deeds, they can't circumvent the CC&Rs. Owners of Vistana weeks cannot book earlier than 12 months, so MVC or its trust, as owners of many Vistana weeks, are no less bound by the same restrictions. MVC knows this, which is why they've made it quite clear that nobody will be able to book Vistana properties more than 12 months in advance.

Well that’s good news for Vistana owners and there should be little to nothing to worry about.

I do understand why there might be concern, because it seems as if things get changed (enhanced).

It will be interesting to see the real program so the speculation can end. It won’t surprise me to see Vistana inventory available at 13 months in Abound. It won’t surprise me if it’s not available until 12 months.

Over the years I’ve learned to buy what I’m happiest owning and using. For us that was Marriott. Vistana/Sheraton/Westin added inventory is a plus, but I didn’t buy into those systems for various reasons and if I’m never able to book a stay at one of them, I won’t be disappointed. Somehow, I feel more strongly that, over time as the systems are blended, we’ll see all inventory, including Vistana, available at 13 months.

Here’s a couple changes that were I don’t think were ever suppose to happen but did.

1. Ritz properties were suppose to be exclusive to Ritz owners, but can now be booked by MVC owners and soon (I assume) Vistana owners.

2. post 2010 resale buyers were NEVER supposed to be able to enroll their weeks in the DC.

If I think longer I can probably come up with a few more things that were never supposed to happen. Intially it might be true of the 12 month booking window. 10 years down the road who knows.

The one thing I do know is I’m tired of hearing about Marriott’s labor pains. I want to see the baby.

 

[kozykritter]

The one thing I do know is I’m tired of hearing about Marriott’s labor pains. I want to see the baby.

Yeah, but what if it's ugly and smells funny? Will you still love it?

I agree with you, never is a very long time.
It would be naive for us to believe that Marriott doesn't have a long-term plan for complete merger of the Vistana system into MVC meaning the dissolution of the VSN, elimination of SOs and the allowing of 13-month booking. It's just not what's happening right now. Let's try to enjoy the present moment as much as possible.

Some will say this merger could never happen for various legal and practical reasons but as you pointed out, many things that could never happen over the years did. MVW made an investment when it bought ILG and like any business it's going to try to get the greatest return that it can on the assets it purchased through acquired asset disposals, integration and cost reduction. We are all along for that ride. For now it's a relatively smooth one in the overall scheme of things, lack of communication aside. Keep your seatbelt handy

 

[Dean]

Well that’s good news for Vistana owners and there should be little to nothing to worry about.

I do understand why there might be concern, because it seems as if things get changed (enhanced).

It will be interesting to see the real program so the speculation can end. It won’t surprise me to see Vistana inventory available at 13 months in Abound. It won’t surprise me if it’s not available until 12 months.

Over the years I’ve learned to buy what I’m happiest owning and using. For us that was Marriott. Vistana/Sheraton/Westin added inventory is a plus, but I didn’t buy into those systems for various reasons and if I’m never able to book a stay at one of them, I won’t be disappointed. Somehow, I feel more strongly that, over time as the systems are blended, we’ll see all inventory, including Vistana, available at 13 months.

Here’s a couple changes that were I don’t think were ever suppose to happen but did.

1. Ritz properties were suppose to be exclusive to Ritz owners, but can now be booked by MVC owners and soon (I assume) Vistana owners.

2. post 2010 resale buyers were NEVER supposed to be able to enroll their weeks in the DC.

If I think longer I can probably come up with a few more things that were never supposed to happen. Intially it might be true of the 12 month booking window. 10 years down the road who knows.

The one thing I do know is I’m tired of hearing about Marriott’s labor pains. I want to see the baby.

13 month reservation option for weeks was added later. Horizon's was rolled into MVC.

 

[kyaustin]

Saw this posted on the Facebook Marriott/Vistana page with a new communication Vistana sent out, I know this is the Marriott board but seemed there were a lot of comments In this thread about the what if’s. I tried to post a screenshot but kept hitting a file is too large error, so here’s the link to the Facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/groups/421297155809371/permalink/782229403049476/

update:
I now see this should have been on the ‘Updated Abound info on MVC website‘ thread - I thought it was this one - sorry.

 

[dougp26364]

13 month reservation option for weeks was added later. Horizon's was rolled into MVC.

Basically, they’ll eventually find a reason and a way to make any “enhancement” they feel will bring in more sales or kick start stagnant sales numbers. Add a new tier, add an enhancement et…..

 

[Dean]

Basically, they’ll eventually find a reason and a way to make any “enhancement” they feel will bring in more sales or kick start stagnant sales numbers. Add a new tier, add an enhancement et…..

That was essentially my point earlier, not necessarily that they would make changes but that they could. The reality is that while the legal documents do provide protections, they don't provide nearly as much as people think they do. They could certainly tie come changes into enrollment agreements.

 

[dougp26364]

That was essentially my point earlier, not necessarily that they would make changes but that they could. The reality is that while the legal documents do provide protections, they don't provide nearly as much as people think they do. They could certainly tie come changes into enrollment agreements.

After 24 years of timeshare ownership, I’ve come to realize that everything is subject to change. Contracts and rules mean very little when the people writing them have the power to amend them.

 

[dioxide45]

I found this interesting. We booked an II getaway into Sheraton Vistana Villages for later this year and the unit code began with a D, which would seem to indicate that the deposit came from the MVC Destinations Trust. THough perhaps it is possible this also indicates it came from Sheraton Flex inventory.