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R.I.P. -- Joe Paterno

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gpurtz

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There wasn't enough evidence to prosecute Sandusky in 1998. So Joe PA should have prosecuted him? As for 2002, that horse has been beaten enough!
However, before further impugning Coach Paterno, you may wish to read Sally Jenkins' Washington Post interview and the video clips accompanying same. Also, you might take a look at Phil Knight's tribute at today's memorial. In fact, look at the entire memorial service and then come back here and tell us that your opinion of Joe PA did not change one iota. Some of you will make the Sandusky affair the major theme of your term paper about Joe PA's life. In my paper, it will be a footnote! Because to me, that is where it belongs!
 

AKE

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Now if it was your child who had been molested I would think that you would be singing a different tune, starting with hiring the best attorney that money could afford and then "suing everyone and his brother". Unless you yourself have been the victim of such an assult, or the parent of a child of such an assult, I don't think you (or myself having never been in either position) are qualified to make a judgement in that only a footnote is required. As a parent however I know what I would have done had I been in Paterno's shoes (and that is doing everything in my power to make sure that the molesting stopped and that the legal system took over. A discussion with the university president or a call to the media, even in 2002, would have been a good place to start).
 
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SueDonJ

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If the Sandusky scandal hadn't become widely known this year, if Joe Paterno had finished the season, announced his illness and possibly retirement, and died, this would be a very different conversation.

Then if, say a few months or years later, we found out about the Sandusky scandal and Paterno's (and others', including Curley's and Schultz') lack of doing as much as they could have, I wonder what we'd be saying now.

Would Joe Paterno be discussed as having any more blame for not doing enough than the others who apparently knew? Would the higher-ups to whom it was reported and who failed to take action be more of our focus? Would this conversation be primarily about Sandusky and other predators who have access to youngsters, or would it be primarily about Joe Paterno?

I'm thinking the conversation would have focused more on Sandusky and predators, and on Curley and Schultz, to whom Paterno did report the incident, but perhaps since Paterno's name is well known and theirs aren't, maybe not.

Obviously "If" isn't what happened.....just pondering.

Good question. When I first heard it reported I thought immediately, "wonder how much Joe Paterno knew?" Could be that was the slant already in the report I'd heard, or it could be that was my natural reaction - I honestly don't remember. But I don't think that whether Joe Paterno was alive or dead at the time the story broke makes a significant difference (except maybe to the victims*) - he was the Head Coach at Penn State at the time the events took place there, so naturally there would be questions surrounding his involvement or lack of.

I still have a lot of questions about how things transpired over the years, and honestly don't understand why people want to continue to sweep this under the rug instead of exposing it completely. If there were no problems with Sandusky's coaching ability, why all of a sudden in 1999 - following a police investigation in 1998 which supposedly did not yield enough info to prosecute him - did Joe Paterno find it necessary to "encourage" Sandusky to resign from his coaching position? If Sandusky's involvement with The Second Mile, which he founded in 1977, wasn't a concern during all the years he was on the coaching staff, why did Paterno use it as the reason he "encouraged" Sandusky to retire in 1999? Why upon his resignation was Sandusky bestowed "coach emeritus" status and allowed continued access to the facilities? Why was he not highly recommended to other college football programs, when his age and his on-field resume made him a prime candidate for a head coach position elsewhere? Why did the people in that football program as well as throughout the community not see anything wrong with, or deliberately turn blind eyes to, him bringing young boys with him to practically every event - including Penn State football events - during which overnight visits the young boys stayed in his hotel rooms? Why after the 2002 allegations was he told only that he could not bring young boys to the facilities anymore, instead of more strongly reprimanded? If they knew enough to keep young boys away from Sandusky then, WHY in God's name didn't ANYONE do anything more to stop the monster? Why why why ... there are so many questions that remain, many that will never be answered, but it's so unfair to the victims to not at least try.

The reason I believe that Joe Paterno's involvement, and complicity if that's what it actually turns out to be, is so much more disturbing than anyone else's is because Joe Paterno was the head of the football program. By virtue of both his title and the reverence bestowed upon him by the community, he had the influence to sway the decisions of the Board of Trustees. Evidence for that is in the fact that they tried to remove him as Head Coach in 2004 but he was able to easily dismiss their actions. Head Coaching positions have inherent power; Joe Paterno had more than most because of his legacy, the support he had in the community, and the millions of dollars his program brought to the university. But with that power comes great responsibility - not only did he not live up to it, from some appearances he actually sacrificed it along with the victims for the sake of the football program.

* I wonder what Sandusky's victims would think of your question. Going back to the pedophile priest scandal in Boston, several of the principal members of the archdiocese who were implicated in the cover-up pre-deceased the exposure. The victims then said that they felt justice was incomplete and forever would be, because when those people died they were celebrated as good men without anyone acknowledging publicly anything different.
 

SueDonJ

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There wasn't enough evidence to prosecute Sandusky in 1998. So Joe PA should have prosecuted him? As for 2002, that horse has been beaten enough!
However, before further impugning Coach Paterno, you may wish to read Sally Jenkins' Washington Post interview and the video clips accompanying same. Also, you might take a look at Phil Knight's tribute at today's memorial. In fact, look at the entire memorial service and then come back here and tell us that your opinion of Joe PA did not change one iota. Some of you will make the Sandusky affair the major theme of your term paper about Joe PA's life. In my paper, it will be a footnote! Because to me, that is where it belongs!

For every glowing report from people of influence about Joe Paterno that you can produce, I can produce a scathing report from someone with just as much influence. There is no black and white here, no absolute wrong or right. You're entitled to think of the "Sandusky affair" as a footnote to Joe Paterno's memoir. I'm entitled, also, to consider it as an equal factor to any other aspect of his life's work.

But I'll ask you, too - do you think Sandusky's victims think that Paterno's involvement is a footnote in the affair?
 

pjrose

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Susan - I don't disagree with what you say. Good point asterisked above.

But I'll just say RIP, Joe.
 
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gpurtz

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Susan, if you look at this situation through the eyes of the victims or their families, then anyone who had any inkling of what Sandusky was doing should be blamed for not doing more. If you want to include Coach Paterno in that group, that is fine. But I am mindful of the benefit of hindsight. Where you and I differ is that I am not willing to allow this assignation of blame to so distort my view of Joe Paterno's life and accomplishments that I can no longer see the essence of a wonderful human being. This is my last post on this topic as it is time to let it and Joe PA rest in peace!
 

geekette

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ace2000;1234833[B said:
]Paterno definitely was in the wrong to a certain degree. He knew that Sandusky was a sex offender, based on McQuery telling him what he saw. He also knew that the incident was not reported to the local police. [/B]He knew that Sandusky continued to use the school athletic facilities. Even Paterno has admitted that he was in the wrong during recent interviews.

However, for me, the issue is how much punishment does the man deserve? I feel Paterno has already received enough punishment for the error of his ways, regarding Sandusky. Some on here feel he deserves far greater punishment. And you know, I can understand that mindset. Don't agree, but I am understanding.

So again, the disagreement on this thread seems to be regarding what level of punishment he deserves.

Paterno knew nothing if he only knew what was told to him. That is hearsay. I was under the impression that the campus authorities were doubly the local police? How did he know/why would they tell him anything about their investigation?

Yeah, I'm going to defend him for a bit.

please someone, I would like a link to where Joe says he could have done more. I need context, I need quotes and video if it's there. Because right now, that is hearsay to me.

I am not certain what joe knew when.

And I do agree with you that the disagreement seems to be about how much blame he deserves, but I am not there yet.

I am not so inclined to believe common rhetoric, so to me, the blame is on Sandusky himself, until I see that those who could stop him, did not. and I do not believe that the buck stops with paterno.
 

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Talent312

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It was Nike founder and CEO Phil Knight who broke the dam [at the memorial service], defending Paterno's handling of child-sex allegations that were leveled against a former coaching assistant. "If there is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation and not in Joe Paterno's response," Knight said.
------------------------
BTW, know who the Board of Trustee's attorney is? Lanny Davis, who defended Clinton from Ken Starr's investigation. Fitting, somehow.
 

ksqdomer

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It was Nike founder and CEO Phil Knight who broke the dam [at the memorial service], defending Paterno's handling of child-sex allegations that were leveled against a former coaching assistant. "If there is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation and not in Joe Paterno's response," Knight said.
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BTW, know who the Board of Trustee's attorney is? Lanny Davis, who defended Clinton from Ken Starr's investigation. Fitting, somehow.

Interestingly, Knight's name is the only one ever to appear on a Penn State jersey, front or back.;)
 

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Thats just plain stupid.
A co-worker calls you on the phone, your daughter was just hit by a car in town. Is you first thought ? it's just hearsy, I will wait to see if she calls me. AHH no, you react..........
Boys getting raped in your lockeroom, hearsay or not, you react. Lets be clear one last time, HE WAS PROTECTING HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM instead of the boys

Paterno knew nothing if he only knew what was told to him. That is hearsay. .
 
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geekette

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Thats just plain stupid.
A co-worker calls you on the phone, your daughter was just hit by a car in town. Is you first thought ? it's just hearsy, I will wait to see if she calls me. AHH no, you react..........
Boys getting raped in your lockeroom, hearsay or not, you react. Lets be clear one last time, HE WAS PROTECTING HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM instead of the boys

Now you're being abusive.

"YOUR" lockerroom? PennSt's lockerroom.

It's an amazing ability you have to "just know" the thoughts and motivations of otehrs.
 

geekette

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Well, to start here's your link below... and the rest of your post just proves you really have no clue what you're talking about.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/01/14/paterno-interview-wish-had-done-more/

well thank you. And you have a blissfully informed day also!

I've been asking for facts, not attempting to portray my opinions as facts. Fox News? Quotes out of context from another interview...

This link is rather consistent with what I have been saying. he turned it over to those who were in a position to stop it. Didn't know about all of it.

Please prove that I have no clue what i'm talking about?? I'm not seeing it.
 

ace2000

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Paterno knew nothing if he only knew what was told to him. That is hearsay. I was under the impression that the campus authorities were doubly the local police? How did he know/why would they tell him anything about their investigation?

Yeah, I'm going to defend him for a bit.

please someone, I would like a link to where Joe says he could have done more. I need context, I need quotes and video if it's there. Because right now, that is hearsay to me.

I am not certain what joe knew when.

And I do agree with you that the disagreement seems to be about how much blame he deserves, but I am not there yet.

I am not so inclined to believe common rhetoric, so to me, the blame is on Sandusky himself, until I see that those who could stop him, did not. and I do not believe that the buck stops with paterno.

well thank you. And you have a blissfully informed day also!

I've been asking for facts, not attempting to portray my opinions as facts. Fox News? Quotes out of context from another interview...

This link is rather consistent with what I have been saying. he turned it over to those who were in a position to stop it. Didn't know about all of it.

Please prove that I have no clue what i'm talking about?? I'm not seeing it.

The story on the Fox News link referenced an interview from the Washington Post. What was taken out of context? I think it's very clear Paterno stated that he wished he would have done more.

You say "Paterno knew nothing"... actually Paterno knew what he heard in graphic detail from McQueary, whom he later hired as an assistant coach.

You ask... could Paterno have "stopped him"... the answer is yes. At the least, Paterno knew, even after the incident, that Sandusky got off the hook because he was visible around the Penn St. campus and continued to use the facilities and attend games and practices for many years. Paterno could have done much more, as he clearly admitted.

The problem I personally have with your post, is that you appear to be saying that unless there was video proof or that Paterno had seen the incident himself, that he had no idea about what was going on. That presumption is totally ridiculous.

Also, you really need to consider the effects of your words and mindset on people that have been involved in sexual assault type incidents, or have friends or family members that have been victims.

Again, for me personally, I feel Paterno and school have received their justice in the matter. They both have already paid a heavy price. Besides the public disgrace, the school will have to face the legal issues involved for years in the future.
 

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Those that want to call me clueless or stupid or whatnot, fine, that doesn't bother me, but it sure isn't going to change my mind, either. Provide some proof and maybe I'll see things differently.

one thing no one has mentioned - where were the parents? where were the guardians of these boys?? I don't see how a college football coach is more culpable than adults these non-college attending kids would have seen daily.

If anyone should have known something was wrong, it would be those closest to the victims. where are they and why didn't they know? why didn't they act to protect the children?

if Sand got his victims from the camp, what about the other adults involved with that organization? how did they not know? why did they not act? How is penn st more culpable than his hunting grounds?

I cannot lay this at JoePa's doorstep. I simply cannot. Those of you that want an easy target, a known villain, go ahead and blame Paterno. it's misplaced, but if that makes you feel better for the victims,that's fine. But let's not forget that the molester is still alive. and not in jail.
 

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well thank you. And you have a blissfully informed day also!

I've been asking for facts, not attempting to portray my opinions as facts. Fox News? Quotes out of context from another interview...

This link is rather consistent with what I have been saying. he turned it over to those who were in a position to stop it. Didn't know about all of it.

Please prove that I have no clue what i'm talking about?? I'm not seeing it.

It's not that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's that you aren't making the same presumptions that others are making. I think most presume that there was another reason that Sandusky "retired" when he did. He was in the prime of his career, and by most accounts was the "coach in waiting" at PSU. I think most presume that McQueary didn't make up the shower story. I think most presume that JoePa was easily the most powerful man on Penn State's campus. I think most presume that JoePa had the power to do most anything he wanted within the confines of the university, including the power to insist on a thorough investigation of Sandusky's actions, and the ability to dictate than Sandusky never set foot on university property again.

Are these reasonable presumptions? That's up to you to decide. If one makes these presumptions, then it's pretty easy to conclude that JoePa didn't hold up to his moral obligations. If one doesn't make these presumptions (Sandusky legitimately retired, McQueary's allegations were simply hearsay, JoePa was "just a football coach" and it's not a football coach's responsibility to investigate criminal activity, etc), then it's reasonable to conclude that he fulfilled his legal obligation.

It really comes down to what presumptions one is willing to make based on the info at hand.
 

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also, you really need to consider the effects of your words and mindset on people that have been involved in sexual assault type incidents, or have friends or family members that have been victims.

No, I really don't. This is an RIP Joe Paterno thread. If people are free to toss around nasty words concerning him, condemn the dead for crimes of another, call me clueless, etc., I really don't see that my words NOR MINDSET are the problem here. I've been convicted right along with Joe.

your opinion clearly varies. and I get that people disagree with me, but that doesn't make me wrong, and it does not obligate me to stop stating my opinion. you don't know me, you don't know my family. Maybe I have a relative that was falsely accused of heinous crimes committed by another and it ruined his life. Victims are damaged, regardless, but hanging an innocent man just compounds the injustice.

If molestion victims want to read an RIP thread that has become contentious and they are victims, they expose themselves to upset. It is not my obligation to protect them. Don't read it if it's upsetting. If they hate JoePa, why are they even in the RIP JoePa thread?
 

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one thing no one has mentioned - where were the parents? where were the guardians of these boys?? I don't see how a college football coach is more culpable than adults these non-college attending kids would have seen daily.

Again, proof that you aren't informed. Sandusky's foundation dealt with 'at risk' kids. These are kids that generally don't have much parental involvement. Probably the perfect victims in Sandusky's eyes.

Did you not hear anything about the previous incident in 1999? The mother of a victim informed the police about that matter.
 

geekette

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It's not that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's that you aren't making the same presumptions that others are making. .... It really comes down to what presumptions one is willing to make based on the info at hand.

Thank you. I appreciate your seeing the gap.

I do admit to not being completely up on every FACTUAL element and likely am not in possession of ALL FACTS (partially because I believe there are very few FACTS available to us). Just cuz somethign is on the internet does not make it true so I will question things and seek The Truth. Fragments of quotes allegedly taken from another interview? no, I don't trust that. context matters.

And I happen to think of Fox as fake news. just my opinion that I am willing to be bashed for.
 

geekette

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Again, proof that you aren't informed. Sandusky's foundation dealt with 'at risk' kids. These are kids that generally don't have much parental involvement. Probably the perfect victims in Sandusky's eyes.

Did you not hear anything about the previous incident in 1999? The mother of a victim informed the police about that matter.

So these kids had no homes, no guardians? They, what, took up residence in Sandy's home or lived at Penn St? Did JoePa adopt them and that's why he's culpable?

I knew they were at risk kids, sure, but they generally live SOMEWHERE and have adults.

And what happened with that 99 incident? Did Joe Paterno get the investigation squashed? Did the police ask Joe to intervene and he refused? Did the mother know that joe knew?

tie it to joe for me.
 

ace2000

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Thank you. I appreciate your seeing the gap.

And I happen to think of Fox as fake news. just my opinion that I am willing to be bashed for.

I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because I really do like to hear all sides on an issue. But, I feel that you believe what you want to believe.

Look for another reputable source on the Paterno interview on Google. It appears that you don't want to take the time to be informed.
 

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I hope you don't take this as a personal attack, because I really do like to hear all sides on an issue. But, I feel that you believe what you want to believe.

Look for another reputable source on the Paterno interview on Google. It appears that you don't want to take the time to be informed.

Nope, not at all, you are right, and your saying this is not a personal attack. I'm believing what I want to believe, which is only what has been proven. That's pretty much always going to be my choice as I don't thrown in on witch hunts or herd think. I'm not going to condemn Joe Paterno because others say he should be condemned nor because it will make other victims feel better.

It takes time to hunt down facts. I'm asking for others to provide their sources. I'll believe a fact. There is a lot of belief on this thread being posted to be factual information and I'm not going to just buy it.

A link that references something else and provides quotes to it without the full quote, like, the actual quote of the question, is not proof to me. It just isn't. The WP interview, I'll go seek that out. Not right now, but it may hold the info I seek. I appreciate the tip.

But, honestly, the whole thing is so heinous and disgusting, I did not go hunt down all the facts because it's disturbing. But I think it can be agreed that others have input info on this thread that is opinion and not fact. Let's not pretend that I am the only one not in possession of all the facts.
 

SueDonJ

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... But, honestly, the whole thing is so heinous and disgusting, I did not go hunt down all the facts because it's disturbing. But I think it can be agreed that others have input info on this thread that is opinion and not fact. Let's not pretend that I am the only one not in possession of all the facts.

I don't know if you've read the Grand Jury report or not, but at this point it is just about the only thing that contains what can pass as facts. It's at the link if you want to be more informed about what's leading those of us who have made presumptions, to those presumptions.

I'll readily admit that my opinion is skewed by my knowledge of the similar pedophile priest scandal, and perhaps I'm biased against Joe Paterno in this case because I equate him to powerful men who did nothing to expose the priests for what they were, either. The opinion I have that any Head Coach position of a football program has inherent power is from years of being a sports junkie. With this particular head coach, I just don't believe that you can say on the one hand that Joe Paterno didn't have the power to stop Sandusky, when on the other it is commonly acknowledged that he had the power to stop the Penn State Board of Trustees from firing him. He either had power and influence over the university's hierarchy or he didn't, and the little bit of evidence out there makes it appear that he did.

I'm in complete agreement with you that there are still too many unanswered questions surrounding Sandusky and ALL of the people around him who enabled his actions. He is the sole owner of responsibility for his victims' physical injuries. But, anyone who knew what was happening and did not do enough to stop it, shares the responsibility with Sandusky for the victims' mental anguish. That's my opinion, but it's also the accepted opinion of experts who are champions for the cause against child molestation. (And it's the reason why Penn State will pay out millions in compensatory damages when the court proceedings are all said and done.)

I will always think that it is paramount to the future well-being of the victims to ask the questions and expose the truth, regardless of whether the truth damages the reputation of anybody who was formerly thought of as above reproach. Always. Here I get the feeling that some people just don't want the questions to be asked.
 
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SueDonJ

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It's not that you have no clue what you're talking about, it's that you aren't making the same presumptions that others are making. I think most presume that there was another reason that Sandusky "retired" when he did. He was in the prime of his career, and by most accounts was the "coach in waiting" at PSU. I think most presume that McQueary didn't make up the shower story. I think most presume that JoePa was easily the most powerful man on Penn State's campus. I think most presume that JoePa had the power to do most anything he wanted within the confines of the university, including the power to insist on a thorough investigation of Sandusky's actions, and the ability to dictate than Sandusky never set foot on university property again.

Are these reasonable presumptions? That's up to you to decide. If one makes these presumptions, then it's pretty easy to conclude that JoePa didn't hold up to his moral obligations. If one doesn't make these presumptions (Sandusky legitimately retired, McQueary's allegations were simply hearsay, JoePa was "just a football coach" and it's not a football coach's responsibility to investigate criminal activity, etc), then it's reasonable to conclude that he fulfilled his legal obligation.

It really comes down to what presumptions one is willing to make based on the info at hand.

Another one for the "Like" button.
 

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Sounds like you have no idea about how college football programs work. As long as Paterno was there, he called all the shots. He could have made that off limits but he didn't. It amazing how niave you are !

Now you're being abusive.

"YOUR" lockerroom? PennSt's lockerroom.

It's an amazing ability you have to "just know" the thoughts and motivations of otehrs.
 
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