R.I.P. -- Joe Paterno

[SueDonJ]

You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful. It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.

The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me. When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends. He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret. It hurts. It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him. And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.

I can't think of him in only glowing terms any longer. I can't separate the good that he did, and he absolutely did good, from the bad. When he dies I will not be able to eulogize his goodness without mentioning his evil, because if I do that I will feel like I am continuing in some way the cover-up that existed, contributing to the pain that his actual victims still suffer. I will be betraying them a second time.

I posted in this thread because I don't understand how after all that's been reported, anyone can think that Joe Paterno deserves uncontested accolades. But I'm done now and will leave it for the rest of you to think whatever you need to think.

 

[laurac260]

Sue, I completely agree with you , and from what I've read of Joe Paterno, I think if he could speak to us now he'd agree with you too. Beyond that, I think I'm done coming back to this thread.

You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful. It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.

The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me. When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends. He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret. It hurts. It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him. And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.

I can't think of him in only glowing terms any longer. I can't separate the good that he did, and he absolutely did good, from the bad. When he dies I will not be able to eulogize his goodness without mentioning his evil, because if I do that I will feel like I am continuing in some way the cover-up that existed, contributing to the pain that his actual victims still suffer. I will be betraying them a second time.

I posted in this thread because I don't understand how after all that's been reported, anyone can think that Joe Paterno deserves uncontested accolades. But I'm done now and will leave it for the rest of you to think whatever you need to think.

 

[PigsDad]

Sue, I also agree with you. I imagine that writing this post must have been difficult, but thanks for sharing.

Kurt

You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful. It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.

The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me. When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends. He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret. It hurts. It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him. And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.

I can't think of him in only glowing terms any longer. I can't separate the good that he did, and he absolutely did good, from the bad. When he dies I will not be able to eulogize his goodness without mentioning his evil, because if I do that I will feel like I am continuing in some way the cover-up that existed, contributing to the pain that his actual victims still suffer. I will be betraying them a second time.

I posted in this thread because I don't understand how after all that's been reported, anyone can think that Joe Paterno deserves uncontested accolades. But I'm done now and will leave it for the rest of you to think whatever you need to think.

 

[Linda74]

Agreed. My daughter, son in law and thousands of other PSU graduates are recipients of all Joe Paterno did to encourage high academic standards at the university. As one of the students wrote..."We are because you were, Joepa"

 

[jlf58]

Should have been

"We are because you were, to bad you didn't, Joepa

Agreed. My daughter, son in law and thousands of other PSU graduates are recipients of all Joe Paterno did to encourage high academic standards at the university. As one of the students wrote..."We are because you were, Joepa"

 

[pjrose]

People, c'mon here. This is a R.I.P. thread. JoePa was not convicted of anything. He lost his job and his life's work. His name will forever be linked with horrible events that he was not even witness to. There will be a time for recriminations.

We all feel strongly about this scandal, but please, put the court of TUG in recess. What is said here will have no bearing on the outcome.

Let the investigations continue and lead where they may. But for now anyway, allow his family to mourn his loss and honor his memory.

Peace be upon the mourners.

Jim

With you, Jim.

 

[paxsarah]

You know, ordinarily I don't like to be thought of as someone who is disrespectful. It's really bothering me that some people think I'm being deliberately disrespectful by mentioning the scandal and Joe Paterno's legacy in the same breath now that he's passed.

The pedophile priest scandal hit very close to home for me. When it broke my family and most members of our parish learned that a formerly-beloved priest was a pedophile who victimized dear friends. He was the youth pastor at my church, my confirmation instructor and a dear family confidant; in fact, we invited him back to serve at my mom's funeral mass after he'd been transferred from our home parish but before we knew his secret. It hurts. It hurts that he preyed upon us, but it hurts just as much that there were some members of the parish - lay people and clergy alike - who knew about him and didn't do what was necessary to stop him. And if it hurts me this much, still, after all these years, I cannot imagine the hurt that his actual victims suffered then and still suffer now.

I can't think of him in only glowing terms any longer. I can't separate the good that he did, and he absolutely did good, from the bad. When he dies I will not be able to eulogize his goodness without mentioning his evil, because if I do that I will feel like I am continuing in some way the cover-up that existed, contributing to the pain that his actual victims still suffer. I will be betraying them a second time.

I posted in this thread because I don't understand how after all that's been reported, anyone can think that Joe Paterno deserves uncontested accolades. But I'm done now and will leave it for the rest of you to think whatever you need to think.

SueDonJ, thank you for posting your thoughts. I don't think anyone can think of Joe Paterno's passing without thinking of his involvement in the scandal, and what more he could have done - and I do believe he could have done more. I get the impression from a few others in this thread, though, that any good he may have done in his decades as a coach should be completely negated by his failure to act strongly enough at a critical moment to protect Sandusky's victims. He doesn't deserve uncontested accolades, but neither does he deserve uncontested condemnation (and I'm not saying this was coming from you) so soon after his passing.

 

[Talent312]

For those who would honor the dead...

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP) — Decked out in Penn State hats and jackets, students and townspeople stood in a line more than a quarter-mile long Tuesday to pay their respects to Joe Paterno, the coach who for nearly a half century was the face of their university. Mourners waited for hours along a main campus artery for the chance to file past Paterno's closed brown casket at the campus spiritual center during a public viewing session. Some departed crying. All were moved.

 

[laurac260]

For those who would honor the dead...

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP) — Decked out in Penn State hats and jackets, students and townspeople stood in a line more than a quarter-mile long Tuesday to pay their respects to Joe Paterno, the coach who for nearly a half century was the face of their university. Mourners waited for hours along a main campus artery for the chance to file past Paterno's closed brown casket at the campus spiritual center during a public viewing session. Some departed crying. All were moved.

This is not meant toward you the poster of this message, but I find it very disrespectful and in horrible taste to photograph someone's coffin, and then post it on the Internet. It seems we've lost all sense of decorum .

 

[Talent312]

This is not meant toward you the poster of this message, but I find it very disrespectful and in horrible taste to photograph someone's coffin, and then post it on the Internet. It seems we've lost all sense of decorum .

I appreciate that. It can be an invasion of privacy to be sure, but I would note, however, that the public broadcast of famous figures lying in repose, as the family visits, has become routine. The first I remember was JFK, more recently Sen. Robert Byrd (W.Va.), and of course, there was Diana, Princess of Wales.

 

[paxsarah]

Out of genuine curiosity, is it the internet per se, or any photograph that would be the issue? I would be offended if an unauthorized photograph leaked from the private family service, but I'll admit that a journalistic photo of the casket at the public viewing - posted on an internet news site or published in a newspaper - doesn't ping my radar.

 

[laurac260]

Out of genuine curiosity, is it the internet per se, or any photograph that would be the issue? I would be offended if an unauthorized photograph leaked from the private family service, but I'll admit that a journalistic photo of the casket at the public viewing - posted on an internet news site or published in a newspaper - doesn't ping my radar.

I guess it is this: I cannot imagine ever wanting a photograph of my dearly departed in their casket, either open or closed. However if some people find it comforting to have a photo of dead dad, that's their choice. I find it at least, odd.

Taking a photo of someone who isn't one of YOUR dearly departed is to me, just wrong.

And putting the photo in print or internet for all to see is completely lacking in decency.

Again, this is said in generalizations not intended toward anyone here, and of course these are merely my opinions. So, moral of the story here, if you come to my funeral, please leave your kodak at home!

 

[ace2000]

In this instance, the family must have agreed to a public funeral. If that's the case, and the press posted pictures, it doesn't seem to be a major issue.

 

[siesta]

I stand corrected

In November, many reports stated they planned to take the statue down, but it seems as if that planned has either stalled or been scrapped. If you google "joe paterno statue taken down" you will see that I didnt come up with this from thin air, however, sorry for the misinformation as I havent followed this story much. We will see how long it stands.

 

[SunSand]

I'm still active in the major DI college athletic environment. I've interviewed Joe Paterno, and many other DI coaches in my day. Think what you want, but in my opinion, Paterno was clearly one of the greats. Many of today's DI coaches are an embarrassment. It is so sad to see Joe Paterno's body of work marginalized by a (perceived or real) single laps in judgement.

 

[rrlongwell]

In November, many reports stated they planned to take the statue down, but it seems as if that planned has either stalled or been scrapped. If you google "joe paterno statue taken down" you will see that I didnt come up with this from thin air, however, sorry for the misinformation as I havent followed this story much. We will see how long it stands.

My guess forever more. I do not doubt what you heard. I heard on the Penn State grapevine that there was a little problem with taking it down. A whole bunch of people were planning to surround it to prevent that from happening. Do not know if that is true or not.

 

[am1]

I'm still active in the major DI college athletic environment. I've interviewed Joe Paterno, and many other DI coaches in my day. Think what you want, but in my opinion, Paterno was clearly one of the greats. Many of today's DI coaches are an embarrassment. It is so sad to see Joe Paterno's body of work marginalized by a (perceived or real) single laps in judgement.

That is what happens. Wins and losses and all the good done off the field takes a back seat to him not doing enough to stop what was going on.

I feel the Penn State students and supporters on here and elsewhere have been making this worse by defending him so much. They make t seem like what happened does not matter.

 

[Talent312]

I feel the Penn State students and supporters on here and elsewhere have been making this worse by defending him so much. They make it seem like what happened does not matter.

Nice to see the preface, "I feel," since many of us feel differently. I for one, do not feel that it mimimizes anything about what happened, as that would be quite impossible, nor do I begrudge anyone in the Penn State community choosing to pay respects for his life's work. If anything is being minimized, its that the true villan in all this is Sandusky.

 

[geekette]

If anything is being minimized, its that the true villan in all this is Sandusky.

Thank you.

So far as any of us know, Paterno committed no crimes and it is bewildering to me that this thread is full of such venom towards him. HE DIDN'T DO IT.

And I, personally, have not encountered any solid PROOF that he could have stopped it. He reported up the chain, that's what he was supposed to do, let the cops and campus authorities deal with it. they did not. and that is Joe's fault how???

If you want to lay blame at a doorstep, start with the perpetrator, and move on to the cops that didn't arrest him.

Stomping on joepa's legacy solves nothing but heaps dung in the wrong direction.

 

[ace2000]

Thank you.

So far as any of us know, Paterno committed no crimes and it is bewildering to me that this thread is full of such venom towards him. HE DIDN'T DO IT.

And I, personally, have not encountered any solid PROOF that he could have stopped it. He reported up the chain, that's what he was supposed to do, let the cops and campus authorities deal with it. they did not. and that is Joe's fault how???

If you want to lay blame at a doorstep, start with the perpetrator, and move on to the cops that didn't arrest him.

Stomping on joepa's legacy solves nothing but heaps dung in the wrong direction.

Paterno definitely was in the wrong to a certain degree. He knew that Sandusky was a sex offender, based on McQuery telling him what he saw. He also knew that the incident was not reported to the local police. He knew that Sandusky continued to use the school athletic facilities. Even Paterno has admitted that he was in the wrong during recent interviews.

However, for me, the issue is how much punishment does the man deserve? I feel Paterno has already received enough punishment for the error of his ways, regarding Sandusky. Some on here feel he deserves far greater punishment. And you know, I can understand that mindset. Don't agree, but I am understanding.

So again, the disagreement on this thread seems to be regarding what level of punishment he deserves.

 

[SueDonJ]

(Are we now back to the scandal as the topic, and not the question of whether it's respectful to speak ill of the dead?)

I think maybe some people don't realize that the incident McQueary witnessed in 2002 was not the first episode involving Sandusky and a young boy in the football showers at Penn State. There was a lengthy police report compiled after similar allegations in 1998, following which Sandusky was encouraged by Joe Paterno to retire. As part of his retirement package in 1999 he was allowed extensive privileges to the campus and football facilities, and in fact kept an office there in which he was seen only a week before his arrest in November, 2011.

IMO, it doesn't really matter that Joe Paterno did as much as he was legally required to do back in 2002, when he definitely knew enough to know that Sandusky was a sicko who needed to be stopped. Paterno obviously had no problem at all with Sandusky continuing his privileged access to the football facilities from 1999 all the way up through 2011. ANY head football coach has the clout to run the football facilities as he sees fit, and certainly Joe Paterno had more than most because of the millions of dollars in revenue that his program brought in. If he didn't want Sandusky around, he wouldn't be around.

So whether Joe Paterno knew enough back in 1998 or didn't learn enough until 2002, at some point long before Sandusky was arrested in 2011 Joe Paterno definitely knew enough to do something more than he did.

The reality is, Joe Paterno was symbolically put up on a pedestal long ago and there are now many who don't want to consider even the slightest possibility that he may have done (or not done) something that calls into question the worthiness of that stature. Is it fair that his involvement in the scandal appears to be a bigger story than the allegations against Sandusky? No, of course not. But that's how it goes - "the higher you climb, the further you fall." It doesn't mean that folks are unfairly blaming Paterno for Sandusky's transgressions; Sandusky shoulders that alone.

 

[ace2000]

So whether Joe Paterno knew enough back in 1998 or didn't learn enough until 2002, at some point long before Sandusky was arrested in 2011 Joe Paterno definitely knew enough to do something more than he did.

I don't think anyone on this thread disagrees with this point you (and others) have continued to make through this thread. And as I've mentioned, even Paterno confessed that he should have done more. So, now the disagreement comes down to... what else should be done? I say Paterno has suffered enough and I know you and some others say more punishment needs to be given to Paterno and the school. i.e. tear down the statue, etc.

 

[SueDonJ]

I don't think anyone on this thread disagrees with this point you (and others) have continued to make through this thread. And as I've mentioned, even Paterno confessed that he should have done more. So, now the disagreement comes down to... what else should be done? I say Paterno has suffered enough and I know you and some others say more punishment needs to be given to Paterno and the school. i.e. tear down the statue, etc.

While "what else should be done" is a valid question, IMO it doesn't all simply boil down to any related court proceedings and/or what punishment should be handed down. It's imperative that the culture surrounding the situation be completely analyzed so that there is a thorough understanding of how and why scandals like this happen the way they do, and why the cover-ups attendant with them are as damaging as the actual crimes. Closing the book on Paterno because he was fired, or because he's now passed, is akin to sweeping remnants under the rug. There's been too much of that already.

I actually think the statue should remain. Paterno is a football legend and the statue appears to be appropriate - from what I can tell it's him in his coach's garb leading the team behind him. Seems fitting.

It also seems fitting that Paterno's name was removed from the Big Ten Conference trophy, because as the commissioner said, "The trophy and its namesake are intended to be celebratory and aspirational, not controversial."

It gets murky for me when the praise for his entire life's work doesn't seem to be tempered with the appropriate sentiment for his self-acknowledged involvement in the scandal. Experts who have studied similar situations all agree that the cover-up contributes to the victims' distress almost as much as the physical crimes, and we do a disservice to the victims when we separate praise of Paterno from criticism of him. He deserves both, as do many others who also knew what he knew. Reading back through this thread, I honestly find Pedro47's "I can forgive" to be the most disrespectful comment. It's not for us to forgive - only the victims (and God, if you're a believer) can make that determination.

 

[pjrose]

If the Sandusky scandal hadn't become widely known this year, if Joe Paterno had finished the season, announced his illness and possibly retirement, and died, this would be a very different conversation.

Then if, say a few months or years later, we found out about the Sandusky scandal and Paterno's (and others', including Curley's and Schultz') lack of doing as much as they could have, I wonder what we'd be saying now.

Would Joe Paterno be discussed as having any more blame for not doing enough than the others who apparently knew? Would the higher-ups to whom it was reported and who failed to take action be more of our focus? Would this conversation be primarily about Sandusky and other predators who have access to youngsters, or would it be primarily about Joe Paterno?

I'm thinking the conversation would have focused more on Sandusky and predators, and on Curley and Schultz, to whom Paterno did report the incident, but perhaps since Paterno's name is well known and theirs aren't, maybe not.

Obviously "If" isn't what happened.....just pondering.

 

[Patri]

Very good point.