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Penn State/Sandusky report is out [merged]

Kona Lovers

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Sadly, I don't think this is going to have the impact that it should.

I grew up in PA, and I know all too well how dedicated folks are to their beloveds there -- be it the church, football, school -- doesn't matter.

Much like the archdiocese of Philadelphia's coverup of long term molestation, the Penn State cover up will be pushed under the rug, and excuses will be made as to why football should continue, and why Joe Paterno should remain as a demigod in the eyes of the world....

This is certainly true even beyond State College. We're in CA, and we have on our staff a Penn State grad who claims she and her family knew "Joe Pa" personally and ever since this came about, she has vehemently defended Joe, going to far as hosting a page on Facebook defending him. Watching her actions, the only description I can give it is "rabid" as far as her devotion to Joe, his legacy, and Penn State.

Marty
 

Elan

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Well, the penalties handed down seem like a hand slap to me. 4 year bowl ban, $60M fine, and vacating of wins back to 1998. The only penalty with teeth is the scholarship reduction (20 per year for 4 years).
 

Beefnot

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I find the vacating of wins for 13 seasons, the $60 million which must be directed toward abuse services, and the scholarship reduction all to be quite severe. The vacating of wins takes Paterno from the most winningnest coach in history to the 12th winningest. That is anorthal mortal blow to Paterno's legacy. The scholarship reduction means that Penn St will be a walking dead team for many years to come.

While I find the vacating of wins to be particularly punitive and poetic, I wonder whether this will prompt Penn St. to seek legal challenge to the NCAA's jurisdiction over the sanctions. The other punishments Penn St was probably prepared for and ready to accept (maybe even an outright death penalty), but for the NCAA to wipe out every victory since 1998 was quite vicious. Or, Penn St. may opt to just let this thing now get behind them due to the terrible PR that might be expected if they fight it.
 

ace2000

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This one has to sting the school badly. Just by taking the wins away from Paterno now means that the legacy that some members of the school tried so hard to protect is now gone.

Justice has been served.
 

chalee94

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How can the NCAA justify not giving the Death Penalty to Penn State after giving it to SMU. If they don't, I have to assume they believe booster abuse is more serious than multiple rapes.

the NCAA has said it regrets using the death penalty at all.

the police and courts handle rapes...that's simply not the NCAA's jurisdiction. the courts are there to punish individuals.

but when PSU (as an institution) covered up the crimes to protect the football program, that part is what is punishable by the NCAA.

the penalties handed down should pretty much destroy PSU football for the next decade or so. hard to tell till you start counting the transfers and recruiting losses when kids realize they won't see a bowl during their career if they go to PSU (or stay there if they redshirted last year).
 

am1

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Hopefully the BIG 10 will come through with more. I cannot see their network wanting to carry their games as they will be second and third tier games as it is.
 

ace2000

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hard to tell till you start counting the transfers and recruiting losses when kids realize they won't see a bowl during their career if they go to PSU (or stay there if they redshirted last year).

It won't be hard to tell when you measure the drop in attendance money and the drop in donations. Who knows, perhaps they'll use this as a rallying cry and get more donations. But, it's got to hurt.
 

ace2000

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In order to deter other universitites from doing the same, the punishment will have to be severe. Otherwise, there will be no reason for anyone else to come forward should they find the same thing happening with their employee's within their system. To not punish Penn State severaly sends the message that it might be better to cover it up then to face the bad PR from exposing the situation. The decision by Penn State was to cover it up. The NCAA needs to make it clear that was the wrong decision.

Again, great point here, Doug. This appears to be what was going through the minds of the NCAA in dealing out the punishment. I think the punishment was too harsh, but am willing to concede that this logic should prevail.
 

Clemson Fan

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It's done!:clap:

I think the death penalty would've have been more appropriate (especially if it were done internally by the Board of Trustees), but I'm just one persons opinion of many.

I really hope they don't fight it as I think that would be a horrible mistake! As I outlined in a previous post, I actually think the BOT has responded to this situation in a very admirable way!

It's now time to switch the focus from punishment to helping the victims and making sure this never happens again!
 

SueDonJ

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No secret, I would have preferred that Penn State's football program be shut down for a few years. BUT the NCAA's sanctions here speak directly to what IMO is the root cause of the problem - the culture surrounding the team and the community, that proved football was far too important for too many years. That the successes on the field gave certain people too much power and that those people abused that power to a horrific nth degree. Rightly so, the NCAA has not focused on any individual people but instead on the evil culture that was embraced in the program/school/community. There will be criminal and civil court actions that will go on for years that will deal with that focus on individuals, which is as it should be.

I think it was TUGger Elan* who said something in one of these discussions about how idiotic it would be for Penn State's current board to disagree with or challenge the Freeh report findings, considering that Penn State commissioned the report and agreed to comply with the process. Wouldn't similar idiocy be at play here if Penn State tries to challenge the NCAA sanctions? From all reports Penn State agreed in advance to work with the NCAA to determine proper sanctions and subsequently abide by them. I don't understand why folks might now expect - or call for - Penn State to put up a fight.

(*Sorry, I got that wrong. It was TUGger pgnewarkboy who came up with that brilliance.)
 
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Pat H

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Frankly, I don't see how vacating all those wins is such a big punishment. So Joe isn't the winningst coach but it really doesn't change who won those games. You can't change history. The thrill from winning the games is gone.
 

ace2000

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I think it was TUGger Elan who said something in one of these discussions about how idiotic it would be for Penn State's current board to disagree with or challenge the Freeh report findings, considering that Penn State commissioned the report and agreed to comply with the process. Wouldn't similar idiocy be at play here if Penn State tries to challenge the NCAA sanctions? From all reports Penn State agreed in advance to work with the NCAA to determine proper sanctions and subsequently abide by them. I don't understand why folks might now expect - or call for - Penn State to put up a fight.

I agree. I think they've been working together for awhile. Look at the timing. The Freeh report first, then the statue comes down, then NCAA penalties. I think the board wanted the NCAA to penalize the football team, in order to provide cover to them. Does anyone think the board would've had the courage to make those choices? And then the Freeh report gave the NCAA all the ammo they needed. The timing of everything was very well planned.
 

ace2000

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Frankly, I don't see how vacating all those wins is such a big punishment. So Joe isn't the winningst coach but it really doesn't change who won those games. You can't change history. The thrill from winning the games is gone.

That was just one phase of the punishment. Penn State has been punished, and will be punished more with the legal liability. And they've been hurt very badly, there is no doubt about that.

Also, the wins mean the most to the legacy of Joe Paterno. A legacy that some have argued he was trying to protect. So, justice has been served there.
 

Beefnot

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No secret, I would have preferred that Penn State's football program be shut down for a few years. BUT the NCAA's sanctions here speak directly to what IMO is the root cause of the problem - the culture surrounding the team and the community, that proved football was far too important for too many years. That the successes on the field gave certain people too much power and that those people abused that power to a horrific nth degree. Rightly so, the NCAA has not focused on any individual people but instead on the evil culture that was embraced in the program/school/community. There will be criminal and civil court actions that will go on for years that will deal with that focus on individuals, which is as it should be.

I think it was TUGger Elan who said something in one of these discussions about how idiotic it would be for Penn State's current board to disagree with or challenge the Freeh report findings, considering that Penn State commissioned the report and agreed to comply with the process. Wouldn't similar idiocy be at play here if Penn State tries to challenge the NCAA sanctions? From all reports Penn State agreed in advance to work with the NCAA to determine proper sanctions and subsequently abide by them. I don't understand why folks might now expect - or call for - Penn State to put up a fight.

I do agree that to challenge findings of fact and subsequent conclusions on an investigation that they commissioned would have been idiotic. However, I would not extend that same sentiment to challenges to punishment meted by a third party. Penn St. well might not fight the sanctions; they might even wholeheartedly support sanctions for all I know right now. All though it may be ill-advised to fight the sanctions, idiotic it would not be.
 

Pat H

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That was just one phase of the punishment. Penn State has been punished, and will be punished more with the legal liability. And they've been hurt very badly, there is no doubt about that.

Also, the wins mean the most to the legacy of Joe Paterno. A legacy that some have argued he was trying to protect. So, justice has been served there.

I still don't see that the punishment is that bad. Joe is dead. It may hurt his legacy but he can no longer be hurt.
 

SunSand

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The Big Ten Council of Presidents and Chancellors statement, regarding the NCAA ruling on Penn State:

1. Censure: The accepted findings support the conclusion that our colleagues at Penn State, individuals that we have known and with whom we have worked for many years, have egregiously failed on many levels—morally, ethically and potentially criminally. They have failed their great university, their faculty and staff, their students and alumni, their community and state—and they have failed their fellow member institutions in the Big Ten Conference. For these failures, committed at the highest level of the institution, we hereby condemn this conduct and officially censure Penn State.

2. Probation: The Big Ten Conference will be a party to the Athletic Integrity Agreement referenced in the NCAA release, and will work closely with the NCAA and Penn State to ensure complete compliance with its provisions over the 5 year term of the Agreement.

3. Ineligibility: As referenced in the NCAA release, Penn State’s football team will be ineligible for postseason bowl games. It will also be ineligible for Big Ten Conference Championship Games for four years, a period of time that runs concurrently with the NCAA postseason bowl ban imposed this morning.

4. Fine: Because Penn State will be ineligible for bowl games for the next four years, it will therefore be ineligible to receive its share of Big Ten Conference bowl revenues over those same four years. That money, estimated to be approximately $13 million, will be donated to established charitable organizations in Big Ten communities dedicated to the protection of children.
 

PigsDad

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Frankly, I don't see how vacating all those wins is such a big punishment. So Joe isn't the winningst coach but it really doesn't change who won those games. You can't change history. The thrill from winning the games is gone.
I agree that vacating the wins is not a really big punishment. It was the right thing to do, but I disagree with those who think this is a big deal.

In five years, when someone asks a college football fan "Who was the winningest coach of all time?", what do you think their will answer will be? :ponder:

Kurt
 
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Beefnot

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I still don't see that the punishment is that bad. Joe is dead. It may hurt his legacy but he can no longer be hurt.

For those outside of sports, I suppose I can see how this seems soft. But for those more engaged with college athletics, these penalties sure do seem pretty doggone harsh to me. It doesn't have the ominous ring of "the death penalty" that had been whispered about, but it still is pretty vicious in its totality nonetheless.
 

SueDonJ

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I still don't see that the punishment is that bad. Joe is dead. It may hurt his legacy but he can no longer be hurt.

If you read some of the commentary online about the entire situation and in particular the actions taken since last November by the Penn State BOT, the NCAA and now the Big Ten, you'll find that there are STILL far too many misguided people who are embroiled in the culture that protected a pedophile and allowed him to victimize children over a period of years. It's astounding to me that so many STILL do not appear to understand that protecting the PSU Football Program and Joe Paterno's Legacy effectively validates that poisonous culture.

No doubt it will be impossible to ever convince some people that Joe Paterno was NEVER deserving of the Legacy that some still mistakenly believe he has earned. But the NCAA did as much as it could do in that respect, by removing from the permanent records Joe Paterno's placement as the Winningest Coach in College Football. By vacating the wins back to the first date it can be reasonably surmised that Joe Paterno and others participated in the cover-up, the NCAA effectively erased what was Joe Paterno's undeserved permanent, official legacy. That's about as "bad" as it gets, and much more well-deserved. IMO.
 
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Beefnot

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I agree that vacating the wins is not a really big punishment. It was the right thing to do, but I disagree with those who think this is a big deal.

In five years, when someone asks a college football fan "Who was the winningest coach of all time?", what do you think their will answer will be? :ponder:

Kurt

In five years time the answer will be either "Paterno, but..." or Eddie Robinson. Either way, the asterisk beside Paterno's name will be permanent.
 

PigsDad

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In five years time the answer will be either "Paterno, but..." or Eddie Robinson. Either way, the asterisk beside Paterno's name will be permanent.
Exactly. And that is why I don't think that piece of the punishment is such the big deal that some others are making it out to be -- that will still be part of Paterno's legacy, even if there is an asterisk by his name.

The other sactions are the teeth of PSU punishment.

Kurt
 

SueDonJ

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In five years time I'll happily answer that question with, "NOT Joe Paterno." And if a yahoo argues with me about it, I'll gleefully remind him/her that Joe Paterno was removed in disgrace from that prestigious position.
 

Ken555

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I ask the question...under what circumstances would it be acceptable to remove football in its entirety from a university? If not now, when? Never?
 

Beefnot

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I ask the question...under what circumstances would it be acceptable to remove football in its entirety from a university? If not now, when? Never?

Honestly, I cannot think of any circumstance.
 
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