New Data Suggest the Coronavirus Isn’t as Deadly as We Thought

[WVBaker]

And, I believe a big majority of us are listening to them and the factual data, not to the writers of unsubstantiated opinions.

And yet you continue to respond to those with opinions and if I recall, each contributor has a right to their opinion, unsubstantiated or not. Keep in mind that if one feels as though they are "getting beat up", simply ignore them or understand that when posting a viewpoint there will be differing of opinions, should others be "experts" or not.

 

[Rolltydr]

Doctors are just humans with a little more medical knowledge than most.

The education requirements before one can become a doctor from the website Study.com:

The requirements for becoming a doctor in the U.S. may vary by specialty. In general, doctors complete a 4-year undergraduate degree program, spend 4 years in medical school, and then complete 3-7 years of residency training before they are eligible for medical licensing.

And, then once they start their residency and practice, they gain the experience along with continuing education requirements. Imho, that is substantially more, not a little more.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

[/QUOTE].....To think the general public will continue this that long, is simply wishful thinking.
[/QUOTE]

HI VH ,
Picked you to quote / not to pick on .

********

Here is my perspective as a Canadian / Ontario resident .

In Canada part of my taxes go to the healthcare system - I see myself as a part owner of that system
and want to make sure it is still there - when I need it ( hopefully not for Covid 19).

The CEO of Ontario (premier ) wants people to stay home right now - to protect healthcare workers and other front line workers . He just raised their pay $ 4 / hr for the next few months .
I am complying .......

If Ontario was a TIMESHARE - I would want the HOA and CEO to protect my part ownership of the resort .
If they tell people they can’t party at the pool to 3 am ; trash the hottub & other facilities ; I see it as protecting
the value of the resort where I want to go in “2021.”

In Ontario - healthcare is a resort amenity that everyone “enjoys “ and many or most residents want to keep it that way - and are willing to make sacrifices to ensure we protect our ( personal & collective ) future needs .

***********
Not bad - timeshare ownership - Provincial / Canada Healthcare - Covid 19 - SAH request
all in one post .

Hope a moderator likes my creative TUG focused thoughts.

 

[TravelTime]

The education requirements before one can become a doctor from the website Study.com:

The requirements for becoming a doctor in the U.S. may vary by specialty. In general, doctors complete a 4-year undergraduate degree program, spend 4 years in medical school, and then complete 3-7 years of residency training before they are eligible for medical licensing.

And, then once they start their residency and practice, they gain the experience along with continuing education requirements. Imho, that is substantially more, not a little more.

Yes, doctors know more about medicine than lay people. That was not my point.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I would like to compare Sweden with the province of Quebec, Canada.

Quebec has had very strict rules including closed restaurants, bars, schools, parks, all non-essential businesses and has given tickets to enforce the rules when necessary. According to Google’s COVID-19 Community Mobility Report, Quebec has one of the highest rates of compliance in North America and people did stay home during the past month as requested.

Quebec has a similar climate with Sweden, a comparable population size. Both have universal health care and very strong social programs. Despite the very restrictive measures in Quebec, the numbers are not that different..



Situation in Québec

April 26th, 2020, 13:15

Confirmed cases

24 107

Negative cases

171 470

Number of hospitalizations

1 518

Number of deaths

1 515



Sweden

Confirmed cases

18640

Number of deaths

2194

Although Sweden doesn't have restrictions, what proof is there that the citizens are not already abiding by SIP and social distancing? Perhaps they are a very self-disciplined society.

Second, Canada has a lot of Chinese immigration. There may have been more links to Wuhan bringing virus into the country than Sweden.

IMHO there could be much more behind this data to explain the difference.

 

[Rolltydr]

Can you see how that statement may have taken away from your point?

For some reason, many people are wanting to discount what the doctors and scientists are telling us about covid-19 and the potential treatments and vaccines that are under study. I felt that statement belittled the education, training and experience of the medical professionals that are on the front lines battling this disease. I’m glad to hear that was not your point.

 

[TravelTime]

Although Sweden doesn't have restrictions, what proof is there that the citizens are not already abiding by SIP and social distancing? Perhaps they are a very self-disciplined society.

Second, Canada has a lot of Chinese immigration. There may have been more links to Wuhan bringing virus into the country than Sweden.

IMHO there might is more behind this data to explain the difference.

No Sweden is not all that much better than we are at social distancing. I have read many articles and they keep threatening to shut down businesses if they do not adhere. I have seen many photos and people are not staying that far away from each other. Sweden just has a different model and philosophy.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

No Sweden is not all that much better than we are at social distancing. I have read many articles and they keep threatening to shut down businesses if they do not adhere. I have seen many photos and people are not staying that far away from each other. Sweden just has a different model and philosophy.

My point is that I would like to see more hard facts than anecdotal evidence. California is doing relatively well on SIP. However if you look at the photos of the beaches you might think no one in the entire state is abiding by SIP. Which is not true.

 

[TravelTime]

Can you see how that statement may have taken away from your point?

For some reason, many people are wanting to discount what the doctors and scientists are telling us about covid-19 and the potential treatments and vaccines that are under study. I felt that statement belittled the education, training and experience of the medical professionals that are on the front lines battling this disease. I’m glad to hear that was not your point.

Doctors are not mini-Gods. I work in the healthcare field and we get many referrals from doctors when they can’t figure out what is wrong with their patients. Through my experience, I have lost a bit of trust in doctors. Many patients get frustrated with their doctors when they can‘t figure out what is wrong. It makes me really frustrated because then I am stuck trying to figure it out for the doctors.

 

[TravelTime]

My point is that I would like to see more hard facts than anecdotal evidence. California is doing relatively well on SIP. However if you look at the photos of the beaches you might think no one in the entire state is abiding by SiP.

Good point. Based on their social distancing rules and lack of mandatory shut downs, they are a lot more lenient than California. I assume some people are good at social distancing and some aren’t. Here in California, I think people are pretty good at social distancing and following SIP. I wish we could have had the same social distancing rules as Sweden and no business shut downs. They say Sweden is still having economic problems so many businesses are losing money too but it is something like a 28% decline vs a 65% decline in neighboring countries. (note : I am quoting these stats from memory so the exact numbers may be wrong but they are in the ballpark)

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

[QUOTE="CalGalTraveler, post: 2436567, member: 79547
Second, Canada has a lot of Chinese immigration. There may have been more links to Wuhan bringing virus into the country than Sweden.
IMHO there might is more behind this data to explain the difference.
[/QUOTE]

***********
Quebec has a lot of cases that are connected to nursing homes - both workers and residents .

Total Covid 19 deaths in Quebec - 1515 - (as of April 24 2020)
over 60% are nursing home related.

 

[Rolltydr]

Doctors are not mini-Gods. I work in the healthcare field and we get many referrals from doctors when they can’t figure out what is wrong with their patients. Through my experience, I have lost a bit of trust in doctors. Many patients get frustrated with their doctors when they can‘t figure out what is wrong. It makes me really frustrated because then I am stuck trying to figure it out for the doctors.

I understand that point and sympathize with it. I have a nephew who had stomach cancer that was misdiagnosed for several months so I know it happens. But, I still go to a doctor with my medical problems, not some random individual in the neighborhood that is more than willing to give me his medical opinion. Doctors don’t know everything and sometimes they get it wrong. After all, as you said, they are human. But, they still know a lot more than someone who has no medical training but has lots of opinions.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

[QUOTE="TravelTime, post: 2436580, member: 105071
....I work in the healthcare field and we get many referrals from doctors when they can’tThrough my experience, I have lost a bit of trust in doctors. Many patients get frustrated with their doctors when they can‘t figure out what is wrong. It makes me really frustrated because then I am stuck trying to figure it out for the doctors.
[/QUOTE]

everyone has their Silos - some get stuck in them and can’t think beyond their limited expertise .

 

[TravelTime]

I understand that point and sympathize with it. I have a nephew who had stomach cancer that was misdiagnosed for several months so I know it happens. But, I still go to a doctor with my medical problems, not some random individual in the neighborhood that is more than willing to give me his medical opinion. Doctors don’t know everything and sometimes they get it wrong. After all, as you said, they are human. But, they still know a lot more than someone who has no medical training but has lots of opinions.

Yes I already agreed with this. I think doctors are excellent when they know what is wrong and have the specialized technical experience to solve it. Right now with Covid, many doctors do not know too much more than the rest of us. I have a patient right now with suspected Covid and his doctor can‘t provide the answers he needs about what is wrong, when he will get better, even if he really has it. My patient is very frustrated and consults with other doctors but he says no one knows. OTOH, I have had excellent surgeons for various procedures and the doctors knew exactly what to do because of their technical expertise. If something is standardized and the doctor has the training, then they are usually excellent. Now I forgot why we originally started talking about doctors. LOL

 

[DannyTS]

[QUOTE="T-Dot-Traveller, post: 2436589, member: 82356 So
[QUOTE="CalGalTraveler, post: 2436567, member: 79547
Second, Canada has a lot of Chinese immigration. There may have been more links to Wuhan bringing virus into the country than Sweden.
IMHO there might is more behind this data to explain the difference.
[/QUOTE]

***********
Quebec has a lot of cases that are connected to nursing homes - both workers and residents .

Total Covid 19 deaths in Quebec - 1515 - (as of April 24 2020)
over 60% are nursing home related.
[/QUOTE]
Due to French, Quebec has a very small population of Chinese descent, about 1%. For comparison, Ontario has 4%, British Columbia 10%. So it cannot be that.
Sweden also has over 50% of the reported death in the nursing homes.

 

[TravelTime]

[QUOTE="T-Dot-Traveller, post: 2436589, member: 82356 So
[QUOTE="CalGalTraveler, post: 2436567, member: 79547
Second, Canada has a lot of Chinese immigration. There may have been more links to Wuhan bringing virus into the country than Sweden.
IMHO there might is more behind this data to explain the difference.

I read about half the deaths in NY are in nursing homes too.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

What is scaring the *bleep* out of me are these reports of young people who are barely sick with COVID-19 having strokes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/

And if you can't get to the Washington Post article, here is another one:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-deaths-symptoms-covid-19-heart-a9484091.html

What is the entire symptom set of COVID-19? I read that autopsies of advanced fatal cases show heart damage, a build-up of iron in the lungs (probably from iron sucked out of red blood cells), and signs of blood clots in the body.

Now this may be ancedotal (not enough autopsies to be statistically relevant), however, it is consistent with the appearance of stroke cases. (What the level of existing arteriosclerosis in the victim was not described. Still, one can have a stroke from a large blood clot, without any sign of arteriosclerosis.) It is also consistent with the heart problems ascribed to hydroxychloroquinone, if given in the late stages of COVID-19. (Aggravating the existing heart damage from the COVID-19 virus, or just getting the blame. . . )

I mention this about hydroxychloroquinone, because if it is as dangerous as portrayed, why didn't these problem show up over the years? It has been used for decades for treatment of lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, with no history of large number of side effects.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

Second, Canada has a lot of Chinese immigration. There may have been more links to Wuhan bringing virus into the country than Sweden.

In Ontario - some of our earliest cases. (Feb) were folks returning from the Wuhan area after visiting family.
Those folks tended to self isolate upon return & were smart enough to call the doctor / hospital if fever symptoms
started - rather then go and infect others .

The next group of Ontario cases tended to be people returning from family visits to Iran and Italy . Again most used caution and while those in their household may have gotten Covid 19 - community transmission was minimal,

Currently :
Ontario Covid deaths 835 - (April 26- 2020) Population - 14 .6 million
Canada Covid deaths 2560 ( April 26 - 2020) Population - 37.6 million

*******
Canada got lucky on something’s (IMO)
1) - not a lot of incoming visitors in January (winter)
and winter tends to be a time when many people here are less social
( cold weather - stay home more often & hibernate ) .

2) outgoing vacationers in Jan -Feb often go to ~ Mexico / Cuba/ Dominican Republic
locations that were not hot zones at that point .

3) Provinces moved to restrictions before public transmission was common place here
( ie - when it was apparent NYC was a hot spot - not just China - Iran - Italy -Spain .

4 ) Provinces and Federal government are working together in a Team Canada concept -
{inspired by past Olympic successes.in certain venues .}

Canada has not done a great job preventing nursing home deaths or the spread of Covid 19
into meat processing plants .

Testing is not yet sufficient to easily reopen closed functions . The risk to provincially run healthcare
- IS A STRONG COUNTER BALANCE - to scientifically unqualified re-openings .

 

[Rolltydr]

Maybe it’s because the doctors knew the potential side effects and their patients potential risks and they either didn’t prescribe it to those patients they believed were most at risk or they prescribed lower dosages than would be required to fight covid-19.

 

[bluehende]

Forget it. I feel like I am getting beat up every time I post something.

You can have your thoughts and data and I can have my fears and "anecdotal evidence". I guess doctors don't qualify as scientific advice any longer.

Yes I gave up too. People claim you are in a big conspiracy with the WHO, China, CDC, almost all epidemioligists, scientists, the government, the liberal media, hospitals, and the whole medical profession to destroy America by asking them to stay at home. I gave up when I was accused of rooting for a big body count because I questioned that the deaths were being over reported (note conspiracy theory).

 

[DannyTS]

Yes I gave up too. People claim you are in a big conspiracy with the WHO, China, CDC, almost all epidemioligists, scientists, the government, the liberal media, hospitals, and the whole medical profession to destroy America by asking them to stay at home. I gave up when I was accused of rooting for a big body count because I questioned that the deaths were being over reported (note conspiracy theory).

in case you missed it:

 

[PigsDad]

This cartoon reminded me of the arguments going on here:

Kurt

 

[bluehende]

in case you missed it:

Wow you found someone with an opinion on a talking head political show. What does the CDC say about this topic?????? I will listen to them. You do know he is an MD specializing in nutrition right.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Maybe it’s because the doctors knew the potential side effects and their patients potential risks and they either didn’t prescribe it to those patients they believed were most at risk or they prescribed lower dosages than would be required to fight covid-19.

If trials are being stopped for 10+% fatality rates, why wasn't that seen in lupus and rheumatoid arthritis prescriptions? And how would they know who was "at risk"? Any drug with that level of potential risk would have been banned decades ago.

 

[DannyTS]

What does the CDC say about this topic??????

About what topic? There were several covered in the interview.