Need assistance planning a visit to Italy

[amycurl]

I love Venice, and would live there if I could figure out the $$$. I've loved every place I've stayed in Venice. Take the water taxis everywhere; at night, you can sometimes see fireworks over the lagoon. Don't pay for a gondola. Eat gelato at a different place everyday. Get out of the San Marco sestieri. Take a late afternoon nap and then head back out in the evening. Strike up a conversation with the night fishermen in the lagoon. I second the Peggy Guggenheim museum; the tour of the opera house is also amazing (plus, you'll usually see/hear performances/rehearsals as you wander through.) Eat mussels (I grew up in Maine, but only fell in love with mussels after having them in Venice.) Find a glassblower (not on a tour) in Murano. Definitely get the guided tour of the Jewish Museum and the tabernacle. If you find yourself in a crowded square, go down an alleyway and find a deserted one. The most recent place that we stayed in Venice was just off the square anchored by the church that is featured in the newest Indiana Jones movie--as a library; the Chiesa di San Barnaba is actually a museum that hosts traveling exhibitions. (We were surprised and delighted to recognize it!) We've also stayed here, when we were splurging a little bit more. I've found it very hard to get "lost" in Venice; it is shaped like two interlocking claws (once you see it, you can't unsee it, LOL.) The mobility issues of your spouse may limit you (there are stairs up and down the bridges that cross all of the canals) but then just hop on a vaparetto and see where it takes you. Need some green, shady space? Check out the Giardini della Biennale (you should check what programming they may have there, too, while you are there.) AVOID SAN MARCO SQUARE IF THERE IS A CRUISE SHIP IN PORT. (I can't stress this enough.)

I love Siena and San Gimignano more than Florence. (The only exception: our small group of art students talked our way into seeing Bosch paintings not normally on display to the public. That was my Florence highlight.) I could also live in either of those two towns, too, LOL!

I could go on and on and on....I've lived in Italy and would live there again in a heartbeat. My spouse tried to get Irish dual-citizenship, so that we would have an EU passport, simply for the purpose of living in Italy. Alas, his mother would have had to claim hers (she still can, if she was interested) before he was born.

#stepsoffsoapbox

 

[WinniWoman]

Someone I know just came back from Italy and her favorite was Venice. ( she went to all the tourist sights around the country)
But Venice is very expensive.

Also she said the Pompeii museum was much more interesting than the actual site.

She didn’t like Naples . She didn’t feel safe there and said it was dirty.

 

[WinniWoman]

You can totally skip the Pantheon. It's an interesting building -- but empty. I would absolutely put a red line through that if my time was limited.

I heard the interior was the thing to see.

 

[slip]

No, they're bickering in the station, red-faced, and clearly [urinated]-off. Heated arguments about tardiness and costs. A train is late and they lose their minds because if they don't make that connection, the rest of the day is shot. You can go to any popular place in Europe and see this on full display.

Yes, I'm sure that is the case for everyone not traveling like you.

I have never seen anyone traveling with only a backpack and not making plans arguing or bickering.

 

[WinniWoman]

My favorite things about Italy aren't visited by tourists. That's great (for me at least). My wife and I have a seaside town we like to visit where we see next to no tourists. We have another in the interior. Neither are on any tourist maps. There's no particular reason for anyone to go there. And yet, these places are lovely, and have everything Italy has to offer -- minus the crowds.

Since we've seen all the museums, cathedrals and palaces, we would rather just visit our sleepy little seaside/hillside town. Get our morning espresso. Have some baked goods and cheese for breakfast. Take trains to some nearby towns. Drink some wine. And then return for some of the best food on the planet. The old idiom, "Do as the Romans do," is just as valid today as it was in antiquity. It's a pity that people refuse to live by this idiom.

Romans eat late. So should you. They take an evening stroll. So should you. They'll get a gelato on that stroll. So should you. They'll pop into a wine bar and have a glass and chat with friends. Maybe a nibble here and there.

Most tourists are so frantically trying to see things, they completely forget to do things. The doing is more fun than the seeing. It is the difference between an enjoyable trip and a stressed-out nightmare.

I totally get this but you seem to be able to travel ALOT. For most people they’ve got one chance to see things in a new country, limited time and money. They’ll never be back. So there’s that.

Ask me how I know …..

 

[ScoopKona]

I heard the interior was the thing to see.

I'm glad I've seen it. But @Passepartout is right -- it's no different than buildings you can see in DC. (Of course, those buildings had the benefit of modern equipment.)

It's very low on my list of things to see in Rome. Off the top of my head, the only thing lower on that list is the Circus Maximus -- because there's almost nothing left of it. You can see where it was. And some stones that haven't been carted off to build other buildings.

 

[ScoopKona]

I totally get this but you seem to be able to travel ALOT. For most people they’ve got one chance to see things in a new country, limited time and money. They’ll never be back. So there’s that.

Ask me how I know …..

Travel is just another skill. No different than hitting a baseball. It's a skill which can be learned, developed, and taught. I travel a great deal because it doesn't cost much. It doesn't cost much because I've become good at it. Airfare, a rail pass and about $70 per night in the developed world -- that's how much Europe costs above and beyond "me just living my life as normal." Travel costs even less elsewhere. California and Iceland are the most expensive places I ever visit -- and I can even see those places for not a whole lot.

Why? I don't live an extravagant lifestyle. And I use timeshares and AirBnbs. Now I can cook. Now it's no different than waking up in Las Vegas, or Hawaii.

It's fine for someone to demand "there's more than one way to hit a baseball." I know very well that there are. But first I'm going to want to see that person hit some dingers, just to make sure he or she isn't blowing smoke. And if someone can afford to travel like a pampered princess, and enjoys that, that's fine, too. But I've found most people just want to know how to go to a place, not spend a fortune, see the A-list sights, eat well, and do so as stress-free as humanly possible.

I have an answer for that, because I've been doing the see it, do it, don't spend a fortune thing for my entire adult life. Italy is a particularly easy place to answer, because I could cheerfully move there. (But not in the summer). Thankfully, I have a friend in Australia who is moving there. So now I have more options than before. (But not in the summer.)

 

[Patri]

Scoop, You are wrong. People have a blast on their vacations. And most would rather explore the history and art vs. sitting around drinking wine. You can do that at home.
Why do you feel a need to micro-manage everyone’s lives? We know your opinions on travel. You never have to tell us again. Dave, the advice from everyone else is spot on. You will have a great time. And sometimes the cruise excursions are a good idea, because if you encounter a delay, they will wait for you. I have been to many of the places named. Such good memories.

It’s hard to write on an iPad!

 

[WinniWoman]

Travel is just another skill. No different than hitting a baseball. It's a skill which can be learned, developed, and taught. I travel a great deal because it doesn't cost much. It doesn't cost much because I've become good at it. Airfare, a rail pass and about $70 per night in the developed world -- that's how much Europe costs above and beyond "me just living my life as normal." Travel costs even less elsewhere. California and Iceland are the most expensive places I ever visit -- and I can even see those places for not a whole lot.

Why? I don't live an extravagant lifestyle. And I use timeshares and AirBnbs. Now I can cook. Now it's no different than waking up in Las Vegas, or Hawaii.

It's fine for someone to demand "there's more than one way to hit a baseball." I know very well that there are. But first I'm going to want to see that person hit some dingers, just to make sure he or she isn't blowing smoke. And if someone can afford to travel like a pampered princess, and enjoys that, that's fine, too. But I've found most people just want to know how to go to a place, not spend a fortune, see the A-list sights, eat well, and do so as stress-free as humanly possible.

I have an answer for that, because I've been doing the see it, do it, don't spend a fortune thing for my entire adult life. Italy is a particularly easy place to answer, because I could cheerfully move there. (But not in the summer). Thankfully, I have a friend in Australia who is moving there. So now I have more options than before. (But not in the summer.)

We are pretty frugal folks. At home and when traveling. Timeshares were perfect for us. Most ( not all) meals in the unit. A lot of drive to’s as opposed to airfare. Free activities. Etc.

That said, what we consider expensive is probably not that expensive for you. We all have a $ line we either cross or we don’t.

I like a bit of slow travel or vacationing or whatever you want to call it myself. But sometimes I’ve got to speed it up out of practicality. This June we did a tour group trip to South Dakota. Next week we are spending a week at our timeshare an hour from our home and just hanging at the resort, taking walks in the mountains, going to a favorite restaurant or two, etc.

No reason why if we are blessed with taking more than one vacation or trip we can’t change it up each time as desired.

No matter, we always enjoy our experiences. Never been miserable on a trip yet. Being a good planner helps.

 

[DaveNV]

Thanks, everyone. This is some awesome information.

The way we travel is the way we have to travel, if we want to travel at all. There is nothing wrong with spontaneity and flexibility - I've done a lot of that sort of thing myself over the years. But at this point in our lives, with two of us going, and one of us having health issues requiring planning ahead, it limits how unscripted that traveling can be. It may not be the kind of trip someone else would take, but this isn't their trip. And it's a damn site better than any trip not taken. I have many relatives who have never traveled anywhere, and who wouldn't have the first clue how to even start such a trip. For me, this trip will be going back to some places I saw years ago under very different circumstances. (Scoop, I HAVE driven in Naples, thanks - a full-sized Chevy van with US Navy license plates and filled with sailors heading from the pier to the NATO base. I'd never consider doing it again. I've also been to Venice, Trieste, Pompeii and Herculaneum.) But that was a long time ago. I'm looking forward to seeing things again, with my eyes open to what is, compared to what used-to-be. For my husband, it'll be his first, and likely only trip there. The rest is in the details.

We'll have ourselves a fine time, once I figure out how best to do that. And for that, Tuggers, I thank you for your assistance. The Travel Agent I'm working with seems kind of clueless.

Dave

 

[ScoopKona]

That said, what we consider expensive is probably not that expensive for you. We all have a $ line we either cross or we don’t.

I posted precisely what I spend on a European vacation -- the cost of a round-trip ticket, about $70 per night, and a rail pass. That's it. Really. Nothing more than that. Anything else I spend there, I would have spent anyway if I was here. Sure, there are incidentals there. But there are also incidentals here. More of them, in fact. My car has never konked-out at the side of the road in Europe. And if it did, it's someone else's problem.

Last time I needed medical assistance there, the cost was $0. And the doctor who splinted my arm gave me some great restaurant tips. Travel can cost as much or as little as you want. Just like life in general. I live basically the same way no matter where I am. So the costs don't really factor. It's less expensive to stay longer -- less time in the air, more on the ground.

 

[DAman]

I’m a wanderer. Go and experience Italy almost anywhere. We have great memories of Rapallo. A walk down the harbor with the moon in the sky. But you have an open mind and will put together the right trip for you two. Trust your judgment.

I recommend flying to Milan then taking the train to Venice. You will be exhausted when you get to Venice but a walk, dinner, and bed you will wake up the next day ready to go.

My favorite food was to eat grilled porcini mushroom caps. Sliced like a steak. Almost every night.

I like how Scoop says to travel. But the older I get the harder it is. And my wife has veto power….

 

[amycurl]

@DaveNV, if your travel agent is no help, I would recommend the Lonely Planet guides. On our first five plus week trip to Europe (after not living there,) we used Let's Go guides, because we were by ourselves in our early 30s. On the next, 15 years later, we did use a travel agent (because we were visiting people, too, so needed someone to work out the Point A to Point B logistics, around the dates that different people would be in Point A and Point B....and it was beyond my time capacity) and had a 9 year old with us--but we supplemented with the Lonely Planet guides, which we found had a similar sensibility to Let's Go, but geared to the next age (and price point) bracket. We went with independent, smaller hotels both times--none of the large, American chains. (Although you might want to, if you've got hotel points to burn.)

My only concern about Venice is the mobility issue....I consider to be the most pedestrian-friendly city in Europe, but that also comes with a lot of walking (and more small ups and downs steps than other cities.)

I found Rome in the summer to be exhausting, so we limited our time there on those trips. If you are planning to catch a cruise out of Rome, give yourself *plenty* of time to get to the cruise port in Civitavecchia. It's just a train ride away from Rome, but still a train ride. And sometimes, trying to catch a cab from the heart of Rome in the summer to the train station can be way more time-consuming than one might think. (I might be tempted to book a hotel room there the night before the cruise leaves.)
https://www.booking.com/city/it/civitavecchia.html

In full disclosure, the way I feel about Florence is tinged by the fact that we were coming from the Italian Alps, and it was SPRING and we were expecting it to be at least warm-er. Instead, it was gray and cold and it even SNOWED while we were there. Which will probably not be the case in summer. (Upside? Not as many crowds in March/April, LOL!)

 

[DaveNV]

Thanks, @amycurl. Great advice! This will be a fun and interesting trip, and the planning is exciting for me. Since we sold our last timeshare last year, and just completed a trip to Molokai (Hi @slip!) to use our last exchange, this Italy thing is totally out-of-pocket. I have no hotel points to burn. In this thread I've learned the names of a couple of nice hotels near train stations in the cities we'll be visiting, and I think that'll be where we'll focus on staying. If we're sleeping near the trains it will be easier to get around, I think, at least between cities. And shorter distances to drag our suitcases.

The walking thing isn't a deal-breaker, but it's a factor to deal with. Jeff has neuropathy in his feet, and also degenerative disc disease in his back. That limits his ability to come and go at will, and he does need to sit down periodically to take a break. So planned tours with transportation are appealing, since he can enjoy the scenery without having to walk all that way. In cities like Venice, he'll just have to deal with it, since there isn't any way to avoid the stairs and such. That's one reason we decided to start there, fresh from a relaxing (HAHA!) plane flight from the USA. If he paces himself, punctuated by train rides between cities and staying close to train stations, he'll manage, and we'll be fine. Then we get on the cruise ship for a week, and he can relax between shore excursions. We end in Athens, where we're planning to spend an extra day or two to see things, and then we're back on a plane for the trip home. All in, things should be manageable, if we take it easy. Another reason not to try for twelve cities in seven days.

Dave

 

[zentraveler]

The Travel Agent I'm working with seems kind of clueless.

Travel agent and clueless - now there are two descriptors that don't belong in the same sentence !

 

[DaveNV]

Travel agent and clueless - now there are two descriptors that don't belong in the same sentence !

Yes. And it's another reason I'm here seeking information. The TA is very nice, but she's young and inexperienced. She's asking me where I want to stay, and such. So I'm using her to provide travel options, and I'll come up with the things I think we'd like to do. She's been formulating (aka researching) information for me for about a week. We'll see what she comes up with.

Dave

 

[ScoopKona]

Thanks, @amycurl. If we're sleeping near the trains it will be easier to get around, I think, at least between cities. And shorter distances to drag our suitcases.

Having as little baggage as possible (mentally and physically) helps a ton. Pun intended. I've seen families pushing the kind of bag trolley normally found in airports on cobblestone medieval streets. You really want to shake such people, "Unless you're a theater troupe putting on your own production of MacBeth, you don't need all this stuff."

If you don't take anything else I said to heart, I truly hope you will find some small town, directly on a rail station, surrounded by the places you want to see, and stay there for as long as possible. Considering how close together everything is (in the general region tourists tend to congregate), there is no reason to have more than a few places total. Less lugging stuff around. A great deal more relaxing. Staying in the city center of every city you plan to visit is [censored] exhausting.

Let's take Tuscany as an example. I can do this without a rail map because I've done it so often. The main "we gotta see this" area is a loop consisting of Florence to Pisa, with Lucca and Prato on the north side of this oval and Empo and Pontedera on the south side. If you stay in Lucca (awesome, but the most crowded of the four), Prato (great), Empo (great) or Pontedera (great) you're no more than an hour away from anything you want to see. Siena is a little out of the way -- being the only city in Tuscany that's a tourist mecca but outside that loop. That could be an easy up and back from Prato.

Do a google image search of any of those four towns. Just as lovely, half the price. And other than Lucca (which Rick Steves is doing his damnedest to turn into another Siena), no crowds. There won't be any tourist trap restaurants -- because all the tourists are in Florence, Pisa and Siena. Compare the price of Steak Florentine in Florence and any of those four towns. It's less than half. Sometimes less than a quarter. I highly recommend trying Steak Florentine (as long as you like rare beef). But not in Florence -- and certainly nowhere near the city center. We visited with an Italian friend from Piedmont and he and his wife were appalled and insulted. "You're going to charge us what? For that?" And then he said some things I can't repeat -- suffice to say he didn't think the waiter's mother was a virtuous person.

If you ride one of the fast trains, Rome is an easy transit to Florence -- 3.5 hours. And so is Venice - 3 hours. So of the four towns, Prato makes the most sense as a place to use as home base. If the tourist loop of Tuscany is a Salvadore Dali clock face, Florence is at 3 o'clock and Prato is at 1:30. Google the place. Just as pretty as any Tuscan town.

PS -- Italy is not the most friendly place in the world for anyone with mobility issues. Lots of hills, steps, and walking. Siena is one of the least friendly of all, because the rail station is at the very bottom of the hill and Siena is a hill-top town. Definitely take a taxi/uber if you visit Siena. You should vaporetto in Venice -- because that's 10 steps up, 10 steps down, every 25 meters for about 4 kilometers -- and that's assuming you don't get lost. It's REALLY easy to get lost. Especially when there's a sign reading "Per Rialto" with arrows leading in two directions. Florence is manageable. Rome is manageable. Naples is a chaotic mess, but manageable. Hub and spoke travel is going to serve you well everywhere except Venice. If this were my trip, I'd stay on Lido island or similar, and then take the boat in.

 

[DaveNV]

Having as little baggage as possible (mentally and physically) helps a ton. Pun intended. I've seen families pushing the kind of bag trolley normally found in airports on cobblestone medieval streets. You really want to shake such people, "Unless you're a theater troupe putting on your own production of MacBeth, you don't need all this stuff."

There is a lot to consider, and as you say, plenty of places to stay. If we stay closer to the train stations, it'll reduce the luggage handling. We aren't "bag trolley" people. I pack light, and encourage my husband to do the same. Having medical supplies and photographic equipment adds up, so regular luggage needs to be managed. We both understand the challenges of a trip like this, so we won't overdo anything. And at the end of the Italy portion of the trip we'll be on a ship for a week, so luggage can be even more reduced. We are not "dress up" people.

It'll work out. It always does. We allow room for delays, and rarely see the need in arguing over a delayed departure or missed connection. We are not ugly travelers. The Navy took me all over the world, and I know how to act in a foreign country.

Dave

 

[Ken555]

Given the additional info you posted, I would recommend considering a private car for your day in Naples when going to Pompeii or elsewhere in the area. Other than the walking within Pompeii having a car and driver will make it much easier for you, especially if private so they will come at your schedule and at your preferred location, etc. I’ve done this in many cities, including from Naples when we went on a day trip to the Amalfi coast, and it was exactly what we wanted. The best part is that you can adjust your schedule on a whim based on how you feel at that time. As a minor example, on our way back to Naples I saw an olive oil factory directly ahead and we just stopped…had a wonderful tasting and bought some as gifts, etc. I love having flexibility, and personally dislike big bus tours.

Whatever you decide, I’m sure you’ll have a great time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ScoopKona]

It'll work out. It always does. We allow room for delays, and rarely see the need in arguing over a delayed departure or missed connection. We are not ugly travelers. The Navy took me all over the world, and I know how to act in a foreign country.

I'm not suggesting you're ugly travelers.

But I sincerely hope you don't carry those bags to each city. If I could use words other than [censored] I'd put it in Navy terms just what a cluster[censored] it is staying in the center of town in every [censored] city you visit.

Imagine you're doing a trip in Nevada. Imagine there is rail linking every place in Nevada to every other place. Imagine it takes about half an hour to get from any of those places to any other. Imagine you have a trip that includes Las Vegas, Pahrump, Ash Springs, Alamo, Mesquite and Laughlin. Now imagine changing hotels six times. It doesn't make any sense at all. Just stay in Vegas (at a Station casino next to the train station) and hub and spoke it.

Now imagine that the other two places you're going. They are as far away as Flagstaff and Los Angeles, and there are fast, three-hour trains from where you're staying. (And if you drive, it's a 12-hour traffic jam. But at least the truck stops serve better food than you can get at 99% of the restaurants in the US.)

In geographical terms, that's the trip you're taking, with some cruising involved.

 

[DaveNV]

Actually, as I see it, it's not the same. It's a progressive trip, from one city to a second, on to a third, and then we're leaving the country. It makes no sense to rent a hotel in a central city and venture outward in different directions each day, then have to return each evening. Better to be "in" the city we're seeing for two to three days, enjoy a one way train trip to the next city, and repeat. I don't want to have to spend several hours in each direction every day to see the things we want to see. Venice to Florence to Rome. What am I missing?

 

[nerodog]

I heard the interior was the thing to see.

It's the sunlight and just the atmosphere. It's a brief stop but I'm glad I saw it.

 

[nerodog]

@DaveNV, if your travel agent is no help, I would recommend the Lonely Planet guides. On our first five plus week trip to Europe (after not living there,) we used Let's Go guides, because we were by ourselves in our early 30s. On the next, 15 years later, we did use a travel agent (because we were visiting people, too, so needed someone to work out the Point A to Point B logistics, around the dates that different people would be in Point A and Point B....and it was beyond my time capacity) and had a 9 year old with us--but we supplemented with the Lonely Planet guides, which we found had a similar sensibility to Let's Go, but geared to the next age (and price point) bracket. We went with independent, smaller hotels both times--none of the large, American chains. (Although you might want to, if you've got hotel points to burn.)

My only concern about Venice is the mobility issue....I consider to be the most pedestrian-friendly city in Europe, but that also comes with a lot of walking (and more small ups and downs steps than other cities.)

I found Rome in the summer to be exhausting, so we limited our time there on those trips. If you are planning to catch a cruise out of Rome, give yourself *plenty* of time to get to the cruise port in Civitavecchia. It's just a train ride away from Rome, but still a train ride. And sometimes, trying to catch a cab from the heart of Rome in the summer to the train station can be way more time-consuming than one might think. (I might be tempted to book a hotel room there the night before the cruise leaves.)
https://www.booking.com/city/it/civitavecchia.html

In full disclosure, the way I feel about Florence is tinged by the fact that we were coming from the Italian Alps, and it was SPRING and we were expecting it to be at least warm-er. Instead, it was gray and cold and it even SNOWED while we were there. Which will probably not be the case in summer. (Upside? Not as many crowds in March/April, LOL!)

I woukd suggest seeing more of Venice via water taxis , ftom the water to avoid some of the mobility issues.

 

[nerodog]

On the Venezia Unica website, there are city maps to download where you can find the major points (with the Vaporetto) to cross the Grand Canal. On their site, you can also download routes to get with your wheelchair and attractions for people with disabilities.

On St. Mark's Square and in the railway station of Venice (Santa Lucia) is a tourist office, especially for people with disabilities (open between 7:00 am and 21:00 pm). You can obtain unique city routes at these service offices, showing what is wheelchair accessible. There are about 12 different routes you can take. They help you to visit in a wheelchair Venice Italy on their best.

 

[nerodog]

On the Venezia Unica website, there are city maps to download where you can find the major points (with the Vaporetto) to cross the Grand Canal. On their site, you can also download routes to get with your wheelchair and attractions for people with disabilities.

On St. Mark's Square and in the railway station of Venice (Santa Lucia) is a tourist office, especially for people with disabilities (open between 7:00 am and 21:00 pm). You can obtain unique city routes at these service offices, showing what is wheelchair accessible. There are about 12 different routes you can take. They help you to visit in a wheelchair Venice Italy on their best.

Just for a guide even without a wheelchair!!! Just for mobility