Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[susanmmm]

Dave,

Have a wonderful trip. We will miss your input and information. Thanks for all you do!

Susan

 

[BocaBum99]

Has anyone read this post about the ASIA point system: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100469

After reading that post I do like that it is like DVC in that you can check-in any day fo the week. That is very attractive for me right now. I know, this is an emotional response to the post but to be able to leave the day after Christmas Day would be perfect. For example, this year we are using our resort from Fri to Fri. Christmas day is on our check - out day. However, my kdis want to spend Christmas at home so, we are leaving a day earlier. So, if the new system is anything like the ASIA system it just might tempt me but it all depends on price and how many people join.

I'm concerned if a lot of people jump ship and join the point system and I don't what will happen to my trades. I trade mostly to Marriott resorts and I've been happy with my trades. This is why I bought in the Marriott system because of the trading. I guess, I'll be happy staying at my home resort all the time but not what I bought a timeshare for. We bought to see other places if I wanted to return to the same place over and over I would have bought a cabin in Tahoe.

It is FAR more likely that the opposite will be true. Owners who convert should be concerned if NOT a lot of people jump ship to join the point system and what they purchase doesn't work as planned due to insufficient inventory converted.

Nobody in the history of point systems has been able to get a significant majority of owners to convert from fixed/flex weeks to points. There are always those hold outs who "say over my dead body" when it comes to converting to points.

 

[IngridN]

You can count me in with those that will not convert. The reason...weeks works for me. We've looked into the points system and we actually purhased a Hyatt before recinding. We like long vacations of at least a week and purchased the Hyatt only for close-by long weekends. Reviewing the paperwork and points exchange costs, it was much more expensive than renting a very nice (and costly) hotel room. Who needs a kitchen for a long weekend.

For us, we would most likely be losers under a points system. We prefer exchanging into Marriotts, however, have also exchanged into very nice non-Marriotts and don't have a problem with that.

Also, it galls us to pay for something we have already paid for.

Ingrid

 

[Latravel]

I find it really interesting that people are saying this is all a rumor despite all the signs to the contrary. What more information or signs do you need to understand there will be changes?

I personally am looking forward to hearing about the upcoming points system. I own RCI points and love them. I am willing to pay a little extra ($500 is not bad) to get this option but I've had experience with a points program and love it.

I also find it interesting that people are complaining about possibly being treated differently in the new system. Those that bought resale knew there was a possibility that changes could occur regarding trading and they may not favor the resale buyer. It was a risk that was taken for the sake of lower upfront prices. Complaining now just seems like you're trying to take advantage of the system. It doesn't work that way.

 

[littlestar]

I'm glad I only own an EOY with Marriott. I'm going to sit back and watch this play out. If the value of Marriott goes to nothing, I'll just give mine away for free. It's a lock-off, so splitting it and trading it in II would still have value.

We own DVC points, too, and I actually like the combination of my DVC points and my Marriott week vacations. It works out great for booking 10 or 11 day trips by splitting my stays between weeks and points. Both systems have resorts in locations where I like to go - Hilton Head and Orlando.

 

[FlyerBobcat]

.... I also find it interesting that people are complaining about possibly being treated differently in the new system. Those that bought resale knew there was a possibility that changes could occur regarding trading and they may not favor the resale buyer. It was a risk that was taken for the sake of lower upfront prices.....

Really? How do you know that???? Maybe they opted for "lower" prices because that reflects the real value. And/or maybe they feel that those that paid developer prices just overpaid....

Two sides to every coin....

 

[Latravel]

"How do you know that????"

It doesn't take much to pick up pretty clearly the main reason people purchase resale is price. That's a very puzzling question!

 

[sandesurf]

I also find it interesting that people are complaining about possibly being treated differently in the new system. Those that bought resale knew there was a possibility that changes could occur regarding trading and they may not favor the resale buyer. It was a risk that was taken for the sake of lower upfront prices. Complaining now just seems like you're trying to take advantage of the system. It doesn't work that way.

As a direct AND a resale Marriott buyer, I just wanted to say, that when we bought resale, the ONLY thing we knew we were giving up was the conversion of our week to points, nothing else. Certainly, we didn't think we'd be treated differently, and thankfully, that has been far from the case. Keeping that in mind, you shouldn't be surprised that we would be concerned over this matter.

 

[Twinkstarr]

I don't think resale prices will be brought to zero by any exchange program because there will always be people who only want to use their weeks to travel to their own resorts every year. Consider that the lack of MRP-exchange value in current resales is a non-existent factor for those who buy resale. There will be a smaller pool of resale buyers, sure, if a diminished resort exchange program is attached to resales, but the number won't be zero.

It's always been my thought that Marriott/MVCI concerns itself less than some on TUG think with the profit/loss margins that owners realize on the resale market. BUT with the relatively recent explosion of resale opportunities on the internet, it makes sense to me that Marriott/MVCI do something to get in on the action.

The only points program that I know anything about is DVC, so I'm looking forward to reading this thread because I know you people will provide a great education. Seriously, no sarcasm or snarkiness intended.

****

Dave, have a grand time sailing the seven seas. Again.

Susan,

We love our DVC points! I probably wouldn't be looking at Marriott if DVC's HHI resort was oceanfront, the decor not so dark and the MF"s per point were not quite so high.

It's very flexible as to season and size of unit. I've got a 3br booked for Thanksgiving and just booked a studio for myself to go down for Epcot Food & Wine. We go for full weeks at Thanksgiving and Easter, plus through in a long weekend around MLK.

If you or anyone else has any questions about how DVC works,send me a PM. We own at 2 resorts. I think it's a much easier system to learn than Wyndham.

 

[Latravel]

"I just wanted to say, that when we bought resale, the ONLY thing we knew we were giving up was the conversion of our week to points, nothing else."

Since you are a direct purchaser, when you attended the sales presentation, the sales person didn't mention not having any restrictions on your unit if you bought direct? The sales person didn't mention that you'd have an "R" next to your unit in the system if you bought resale? Just curious but what did you take this to mean?

 

[SueDonJ]

As a direct AND a resale Marriott buyer, I just wanted to say, that when we bought resale, the ONLY thing we knew we were giving up was the conversion of our week to points, nothing else. Certainly, we didn't think we'd be treated differently, and thankfully, that has been far from the case. Keeping that in mind, you shouldn't be surprised that we would be concerned over this matter.

I can somewhat understand this because the only Marriott sales rep that we've dealt with over the years has been very forthright with us in stating that the one difference between resale and developer purchases is the ability to exchange for MRP. She didn't initiate any comments about possible future devaluation between resale and developer. We did, though, after reading things here on TUG, and her response was that MVCI does have the ability to make certain changes (none were mentioned specifically) that would be protected by contract language.

That's why I say "somewhat" - it's hard for me to believe that any frequent readers of TUG could be surprised/newly concerned that Marriott/MVCI will at any time exercise its rights to make changes in the program. The history of them doing just that is all right here in black and white.

 

[sandesurf]

We bought into a small, mostly So.CA, point system 14 years ago. At the time, our points were only good at our home location. They then announced their new "upgraded" plan... For a conversion fee, $3000!, our points could be used an any of the other resorts in the system. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but now I feel that was the worse timeshare mistake we've made. Not only are the HOAs more (as much as a high end Marriott), but the other resorts just are not worth that much to us. (I have learned to make the best use of those points though). We liked the original location so much, that we bought a resale week there for $200, and use the heck out of it! Low HOA too.
I can see the direction Marriott is thinking of going, and will never buy into a conglomerate point system again.

 

[sandesurf]

Since you are a direct purchaser, when you attended the sales presentation, the sales person didn't mention not having any restrictions on your unit if you bought direct? The sales person didn't mention that you'd have an "R" next to your unit in the system if you bought resale? Just curious but what did you take this to mean?

We bought direct 14 years ago, and re-sale 5 years ago. PRE TUG and PRE rumors. Hope that clears it up for you.

 

[PerryM]

Insanity at Marriott or just being sly

I can understand Marriott wanting to make a few bucks in the exchange business - every little crumb helps.

However, 3 years of wild speculation - now that makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason why the programmers or contract programming service can't sign NDAs and keep this all hush-hush. 6 months before release the training courses are released and salesreps would then learn of the exchange system and incorporate the rumor into their normal spiel.

The ONLY reason that makes any sense is that this will be such a culture shock that 3 years of wild speculation are needed to ease the program onto the owner base. If that's the case then expect the worse.

If the new exchange program incorporates Marriott's Destination Club, hotels, and fractionals then this makes all the sense in the world - a huge shakeup at Marriott as it combines their entire product line. But that's not what the rumors hint at; simply a substitute for II.

 

[SueDonJ]

Susan,

We love our DVC points! I probably wouldn't be looking at Marriott if DVC's HHI resort was oceanfront, the decor not so dark and the MF"s per point were not quite so high.

It's very flexible as to season and size of unit. I've got a 3br booked for Thanksgiving and just booked a studio for myself to go down for Epcot Food & Wine. We go for full weeks at Thanksgiving and Easter, plus through in a long weekend around MLK.

If you or anyone else has any questions about how DVC works,send me a PM. We own at 2 resorts. I think it's a much easier system to learn than Wyndham.

Thanks for the offer; I'm sure someone will be asking about DVC but I think I have that system down pat.

Don and I have an agreement that we both have to want whatever major purchase is on the table, and that's the reason we don't own DVC. I would have purchased in a heartbeat because I love WDW but he's happy with a visit every five years or so. The ability to rent points, which we've done in the past through the disboards, sealed the deal against DVC for us. But I've gotta admit, I was heartbroken when DVC left II. More so now that the Ko Olina property is in the works - that resort looks stunning!

If only someone could explain MVCI's points program (as it develops) as compared to DVC, then I'll have a better chance of understanding it!

 

[wsrobinson]

However, 3 years of wild speculation - now that makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason why the programmers or contract programming service can't sign NDAs and keep this all hush-hush. 6 months before release the training courses are released and salesreps would then learn of the exchange system and incorporate the rumor into their normal spiel.

I sincerely doubt the source of ANY information has come from programmer (contract or other). Programmers are bound not to disclose proprietary information. I don't see alot of proprietary inforamtion here. Just alot of speculation. Besides I doubt many of the programmers are owners or care what they are coding. The source is NOT likely and IT source.

 

[Dave M]

The source is NOT likely an IT source.

You are correct.

 

[JimC]

I think that there was a lawsuit that prohibited TS HOAs from charging disproportionate MFs based on season. An owner in the fall creates just as much wear and tear as an owner in the summer, so it would be patently unfair for the latter owner to have to fork up more money to maintain the same unit. Remember that a premium for owning a popular week was already paid when the unit was purchased. They'd have a tough time selling platinum weeks if the MFs were also consistently higher.

But they can distinguish property taxes by season. If converted to points then all costs are the same per point. You pay more or less based on the number of points you own, which will vary by time of year and size of unit.

 

[SueDonJ]

I can understand Marriott wanting to make a few bucks in the exchange business - every little crumb helps.

However, 3 years of wild speculation - now that makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason why the programmers or contract programming service can't sign NDAs and keep this all hush-hush. 6 months before release the training courses are released and salesreps would then learn of the exchange system and incorporate the rumor into their normal spiel.

The ONLY reason that makes any sense is that this will be such a culture shock that 3 years of wild speculation are needed to ease the program onto the owner base. If that's the case then expect the worse.

If the new exchange program incorporates Marriott's Destination Club, hotels, and fractionals then this makes all the sense in the world - a huge shakeup at Marriott as it combines their entire product line. But that's not what the rumors hint at; simply a substitute for II.

Is it possible that the three years of speculation have resulted not from salespeople initiating comments about resale v. developer purchases, but from the savvy owners who attend sales meetings and ask directly, "but why should I buy from you when I can get a much better deal on the resale market?"

It could be a vicious circle kind of thing, couldn't it? Prior to savvy owners asking that question, sales people didn't have any reason to acknowledge the resale market. Then as the internet brought resales to the mainstream, the question started getting asked and salespeople responded to it with only the MRP exchange difference. But at the same time, they were reporting to MVCI thinking heads who had to acknowledge that their customer base was being impacted in larger and larger numbers by the resale market. So MVCI had no choice, I think, but to think of ways to reign in that customer base. They start brainstorming with the salespeople who have direct contact with customers, the salespeople start repeating what's been speculated about in meetings, the customer base starts brainstorming and speculating on internet message boards, MVCI incorporates some of that info into its brainstorming, and voila! - three years have gone by and we still don't know how this will flesh out.

All that to say, maybe MVCI isn't totally at fault for the long drawn-out process.

 

[Twinkstarr]

Thanks for the offer; I'm sure someone will be asking about DVC but I think I have that system down pat.

Don and I have an agreement that we both have to want whatever major purchase is on the table, and that's the reason we don't own DVC. I would have purchased in a heartbeat because I love WDW but he's happy with a visit every five years or so. The ability to rent points, which we've done in the past through the disboards, sealed the deal against DVC for us. But I've gotta admit, I was heartbroken when DVC left II. More so now that the Ko Olina property is in the works - that resort looks stunning!

If only someone could explain MVCI's points program (as it develops) as compared to DVC, then I'll have a better chance of understanding it!

I don't think anyone has mentioned banking/borrowing of points which makes DVC work so well.

I think I may throw up when I see the point chart for DVC Ko Olina, BLT was creeped up a bit, no problem. The resort at DL when someone wanted to trade a Hyatt week for it, I about passed out.

That is something I would be worried about with a Marriott point system, point creep at new resorts. It's very evident with Wyndham's resorts and now DVC(but I understand the economics of it).

 

[sdtugger]

Thanks Dave!

I don't believe for a second that Marriott doesn't "care about the buyer". Having worked in and consulting to entreprenurial businesses all of my adult life until retiring last year, I know that the balance between giving customers everything they want and making a profit is a very delicate balance. Both are important and Marriott can't have some of one without some of the other.

The new system will be great for some owners and not so great for others. But Marriott does care. They have to. A high percentage of Marriott timeshare sales are to existing owners. If they roll out a new program that makes most of the owners so mad that they won't buy again.... Well, they just aren't that stupid.

Dave, Your knowledge of the Marriott system and insider information is very much appreciated. Please keep sharing what you hear and know. You put enough disclaimers in your posts that we all know that you are hearing general outlines of planned changes.

My question for you is based on your last sentence stating that Marriott won't roll out a new program that makes most of the owners so mad that they won't buy again. I agree with your premise. But, I'm puzzled by the application to the points system. Perhaps you are saying that Marriott will grandfather all current owners (I think you said that was likely with the other potential changes) and, therefore, owners won't be "mad." But, if the new points system does what I understand to be its purpose and that is to make new sales more attractive, then wouldn't the new points system devalue all prior sales be they developer or resale? And, depending on the extent of devaluation, wouldn't that make all existing owners "mad"? I'm not criticizing your info, I'm just trying to understand what you understand to be Marriott's thinking and strategy here. Thanks.

 

[Dave M]

If converted to points then all costs are the same per point. You pay more or less based on the number of points you own, which will vary by time of year and size of unit.

That's not necessarily true. Although not my source on this particular thread, one Marriott person I have talked to about this topic suggested that the points might be solely for purposes of internal exchanges and not for any other ownership purpose.

Bottom line? It's easy to speculate, as you have. But beware of assuming that such speculation will become fact.

 

[SueDonJ]

I don't think anyone has mentioned banking/borrowing of points which makes DVC work so well.

I think I may throw up when I see the point chart for DVC Ko Olina, BLT was creeped up a bit, no problem. The resort at DL when someone wanted to trade a Hyatt week for it, I about passed out.

That is something I would be worried about with a Marriott point system, point creep at new resorts. It's very evident with Wyndham's resorts and now DVC(but I understand the economics of it).

There's a lot about a possible MVCI points system that concerns me, despite owning developer-direct HHI 3BR and 2BR plat/gold oceanside/oceanfront properties. Theoretically I think my resorts are among the higher-valued properties, but as you say, as time goes on they will be pushed further down the list by newer properties that will probably have higher point values.

I also have had excellent results with trading in II, and love love LOVE the opportunity for AC's with II. Any MVCI points program that devalues what we've gotten with II will not be championed by me, that's for sure.

 

[JimC]

Responding to a couple of comments and questions.......It does make me a bit sad that in trying to provide useful info, I (or one of my sources) get criticized when the stated likely scenarios and likely timing don’t turn out to be 100% accurate.

I doubt that there are any readers here who would have preferred that I withhold info that comes to my attention solely because I am unable to confirm that the final product will look exactly like or be formally implemented at the exact date of early development forecasts....

Starting later today I will be out of the U.S. for the next four weeks and will have very limited Internet access for most of the next three weeks. So I will not be able to check in on this thread very often during that time.

Dave, I appreciate the information, even when it comes with limitations and/or may not be to my liking. Enjoy your holiday!

 

[SueDonJ]

That's not necessarily true. Although not my source on this particular thread, one Marriott person I have talked to about this topic suggested that the points might be solely for purposes of internal exchanges and not for any other ownership purpose.

Bottom line? It's easy to speculate, as you have. But beware of assuming that such speculation will become fact.

So, speculating, all of the program features will remain as is except that weeks will be assigned a point value (based on resort/season/unit configurations and purchase method, maybe?) for exchanging to other MVCI properties? That doesn't sound so bad.