Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[Dave M]

Because Marriott is using this rumor to benefit sales - they created this rumor, make money from it, and laugh at us.

I find that despicable but that's just my opinion.

You are entitled to your opinion, with which I strongly disagree.

If you truly believe this is merely a rumor, how about a substantial wager as to whether this program will become reality? Since you are apparently convinced that it won't, you should be willing to bet a lot. I am.

 

[SueDonJ]

... I'm sitting in the United Red Carpet lounge at DC's Dulles International Airport, waiting for my flight to Amsterdam. In a couple of days, I'll get on a cruise ship in Rotterdam for a Baltic cruise. Internet connections on most cruise ships are notoriously slow and unreliable. That's why I'll likely be out of touch for most of the next two weeks.

Yes, and we're all impatiently waiting for you to board the ship so that we can run amuk and cross-post all over creation and double-post until our eyeballs bleed and just generally wreak havoc all over your un-moderated Marriott Board.

But don't worry - just give us 24-hour notice of your return and we'll have this place back in its perfect condition. Or, looking at least as undamaged as wayward teenagers manage to leave their parents' homes when left unattended. :hysterical:

No really, Dave, have a great time. We'll miss you.

 

[JimC]

Yes, and we're all impatiently waiting for you to board the ship so that we can run amuk and cross-post all over creation and double-post until our eyeballs bleed and just generally wreak havoc all over your un-moderated Marriott Board.

But don't worry - just give us 24-hour notice of your return and we'll have this place back in its perfect condition. Or, looking at least as undamaged as wayward teenagers manage to leave their parents' homes when left unattended. :hysterical:

No really, Dave, have a great time. We'll miss you.

ROTFLOL!! Great post :hysterical:

 

[PerryM]

You are entitled to your opinion, with which I strongly disagree.

If you truly believe this is merely a rumor, how about a substantial wager as to whether this program will become reality? Since you are apparently convinced that it won't, you should be willing to bet a lot. I am.

Interesting but bet on what? An exact day when Marriott will release this and what will be released?

My betting would simply add credence to a rumor - I would be aiding Marriott's scheme in that case.

I don't question what you say Dave I question the ethics of Marriott - spread a rumor and then profit from that rumor. And then use the largest independent chat-room for timeshares to spread the rumor even further.

They profit if they scare the life out of an elderly couple who are now afraid they will not be part of an exchange system. That, to me, is immoral and just a cheap sales gimmick.

So I don't think I will participate in this sham...

 

[rsackett]

So what do people think will happen to the Marriott preference in II? Will it be gone? Will Marriott weeks owners have just the same chance of getting a Marriot weeks as everyone else? Will the trading fee be $149 if you trade into a Marriott or anyother resort? If this is the case would you still stick with II?

Or do you think the points program will be an additional program rather than a replacement?

Ray

 

[Dave M]

Perry -

There is no question that Marriott is using the info related to the forthcoming internal exchange program to profit from sales. That's no different from what many corporations do. And I don't see anything unethical about it. And if you think carefully about what people have related from those sales presentations, a potential buyer being advised of the coming program might well question whether it makes sense to buy from Marriott because the comments by salespeople, as often related here in recent months, suggest that an owner might have difficulty reselling a Marriott timeshare.

It would be unethical do disseminate info about the coming program if Marriott had no intention of implementing such a program. Further, as related in this thread, a number of people have chosen not to buy solely because of the uncertainties about the coming program. That doesn't benefit Marriott.

I can assure you that Marriott does plan to implement it. If you choose not to believe that, as I said previously, you are entitled to your opinion.

I'm about to board my plane. So I'll check out of this debate.

 

[PerryM]

Marriott gets an F in business ethics in my book...

Perry -

There is no question that Marriott is using the info related to the forthcoming internal exchange program to profit from sales. That's no different from what many corporations do. And I don't see anything unethical about it. And if you think carefully about what people have related from those sales presentations, a potential buyer being advised of the coming program might well question whether it makes sense to buy from Marriott because the comments by salespeople, as often related here in recent months, suggest that an owner might have difficulty reselling a Marriott timeshare.

It would be unethical do disseminate info about the coming program if Marriott had no intention of implementing such a program. Further, as related in this thread, a number of people have chosen not to buy solely because of the uncertainties about the coming program. That doesn't benefit Marriott.

I can assure you that Marriott does plan to implement it. If you choose not to believe that, as I said previously, you are entitled to your opinion.

I'm about to board my plane. So I'll check out of this debate.

Its not that I don't think they will implement an internal exchange system they have every right to do so. To me this is about business ethics - for 3 years they have made a profit from the rumor they created. That I find despicable.

Then to have a Marriott employee chuckling at their lack of business ethics is just raunchy. I've recommended Marriott to many folks over the years - even buying direct from Marriott; now I must warn folks that the downturn in the economy has affected Marriott's ethics as well.

Marriott owns us an apology for a lapse in their ethics.

 

[pwrshift]

Marriott already has 'categorized' their timeshares!

As you know, Marriott gave Marriott Reward Category levels to their timeshares, with:

6 considered Category 5

6 considered Category 7

all the rest considered Category 6

That means it costs you more MR points to stay in some TS and less if you stay in others, just like with hotel levels. The same thing could work in an internal trading system, and I wonder if Marriott is already telling us something about a possible "points" program of the future?

A discussion on 'trading points' is confusing because of the 'MR Points' program, but it might mean if you wanted to trade your Cat5 TS into a Cat7 TS using points you might only get to stay 4 nights instead of 7 nights...and if the Cat 7 traded in to a Cat5 they might get 12 nights instead of 7 nights.

Interesting times ahead...

Brian

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=719220&postcount=9

 

[hotcoffee]

I very much hope that whatever Marriott does, it does not hurt resales. I never bought my timeshare thinking that I would own it for the remainder of my life (and my children for the remainder of theirs).

If there are any who bought developer who do not care about the value of resales, I assume that they actually do expect to own their units for the remainder of their lives. I have a natural aversion to getting into something that I cannot get out of - especially when it costs me money to remain in it. If it turns out that resales are in any way hurt by whatever Marriott implements, I will probably explore whether Marriott would be willing to take my unit for resale. I might be able to get out because I have a quality unit in a sold-out resort. But, I'd feel bad for those who are truly stuck with a unsellable unit if they can no longer get the exchanges they want.

The one comment I generally agree with is that Marriott cares little about what owners think. Marriott is just a business. They do what is in their own best interests.

 

[indyhorizons]

As you know, Marriott gave Marriott Reward Category levels to their timeshares, with:

6 considered Category 5

6 considered Category 7

all the rest considered Category 6

That means it costs you more MR points to stay in some TS and less if you stay in others, just like with hotel levels. The same thing could work in an internal trading system, and I wonder if Marriott is already telling us something about a possible "points" program of the future?

A discussion on 'trading points' is confusing because of the 'MR Points' program, but it might mean if you wanted to trade your Cat5 TS into a Cat7 TS using points you might only get to stay 4 nights instead of 7 nights...and if the Cat 7 traded in to a Cat5 they might get 12 nights instead of 7 nights.

Interesting times ahead...

Brian

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=719220&postcount=9

Excellent point Brian. The problem with that is, what in that process, entices an existing owner to move from deeded week to a points system? Right now, at the least, I am guaranteed like for like and can/will receive a 2 bdrm (as others have pointed out), very likely an upgrade (if I am patient) thru the existing program with II. Plus, I have to pay for the privilege (unknown as yet conversion fee). Speaking of, even if it is alot (a la AP) or a little (let's say $50, or you can use MR poiints to cover - let's get real creative), I still see no advantage based on what you have outlined above. In the OP by Dave, I believe he mentions the carrot will be waived that will likely make it impossible to refuse (or something to that effect).

 

[davidvel]

Out of curiosity, if they move to an internal exchange system is there anything that says that have to still let you trade your week through Interval? Might be a stupid question but I have not read anywhere that they are required to do so???

Once you reserve your week you can let anyone you want stay there. Rent it, trade it, Redweek, ownertrades, II, whatever... But this doesn't mean that if you join the new system you won't be agreeing to only use thier system-- most likely you will.

 

[SueDonJ]

I very much hope that whatever Marriott does, it does not hurt resales. I never bought my timeshare thinking that I would own it for the remainder of my life (and my children for the remainder of theirs).

If there are any who bought developer who do not care about the value of resales, I assume that they actually do expect to own their units for the remainder of their lives. I have a natural aversion to getting into something that I cannot get out of - especially when it costs me money to remain in it. If it turns out that resales are in any way hurt by whatever Marriott implements, I will probably explore whether Marriott would be willing to take my unit for resale. I might be able to get out because I have a quality unit in a sold-out resort. But, I'd feel bad for those who are truly stuck with a unsellable unit if they can no longer get the exchanges they want.

The one comment I generally agree with is that Marriott cares little about what owners think. Marriott is just a business. They do what is in their own best interests.

I guess I just don't understand the contradiction. Folks here say, on the one hand, that it is guaranteed a developer purchase will immediately depreciate to a sometimes drastic extent the minute a buyer signs on the dotted line. That's the rationale behind choosing a resale over a developer-purchase every time, despite the fact that doing so contributes to the depreciation of a developer-purchase.

But on the other hand, those same folks say that MVCI should not be able to implement or contract any exchange system which will negatively impact the value of their resale-purchased weeks. Meaning what, exactly? Is MVCI expected to act in such a way that the resale buyers' investments are protected, when MVCI takes no such action to protect developer buyers' investments?

Like I said, I don't get the contradiction.

The fact that timeshares depreciate as they do is the single reason why I don't see them as financial investments. They are an investment in a forced vacation lifestyle, nothing more and nothing less. The way we buy them is one of the determining factors for our eventual profit/loss ratio should we sell them at some point in the future, sure. Each of us has to determine what level of that risk we want to assume when we're buying. But MVCI assumes none of that risk for when we're selling.

That's how I see it, anyway.

 

[Pit]

Like I said, I don't get the contradiction.

There is no contradiction. The comments do not pertain to developer vs. resale buyers, but rather resale sellers. Regardless of where you bought, all owners are, sooner or later, resale sellers.

 

[SueDonJ]

Its not that I don't think they will implement an internal exchange system they have every right to do so. To me this is about business ethics - for 3 years they have made a profit from the rumor they created. That I find despicable.

Then to have a Marriott employee chuckling at their lack of business ethics is just raunchy. I've recommended Marriott to many folks over the years - even buying direct from Marriott; now I must warn folks that the downturn in the economy has affected Marriott's ethics as well.

Marriott owns us an apology for a lapse in their ethics.

But on the other hand, Perry ....

Speculation here is that it makes sense that it would take as long as it has to rollout a new exchange system, right? Now what if somebody goes to a sales presentation during this time, asks about resale differentials and is told about only the MRP exchange option. Bingo! S/he signs on the dotted line for a resale and six (eight, ten, twenty, whatever) months later is notified that the week s/he purchased no longer has an exchange value equal to a developer-purchased week. S/he rants and raves and finds TUG, and is dismayed to learn that what was speculated about HERE was not disclosed in the original sales presentation. Isn't s/he going to think, maybe rightly so, that MVCI had an obligation to disclose future use limitations if such things were more than rumors though not yet fully developed?

I guess the answer is that if no speculative info had ever been disclosed during any sales presentations, then there could be no discussion about it on TUG or any other message boards. But consider that message board discussions center around all sorts of "what if?" scenarios, some that are in the works as well as some that aren't. Is it more or less ethical for a company to acknowledge the discussion/speculation if by chance one of those scenarios is in the development stage?

 

[SueDonJ]

There is no contradiction. The comments do not pertain to developer vs. resale buyers, but rather resale sellers. Regardless of where you bought, all owners are, sooner or later, resale sellers.

Well then I'm confused, because the speculation in this thread is about a devalued exchange system that applies to resale purchases, not sales. And again, MVCI doesn't assume any risk for the profit/loss ratio of any week for sale, not developer- or resale-purchase.

 

[Pit]

Well then I'm confused, because the speculation in this thread is about a devalued exchange system that applies to resale purchases, not sales. And again, MVCI doesn't assume any risk for the profit/loss ratio of any week for sale, not developer- or resale-purchase.

The speculation concerns a new internal exchange system with the potential to devalue all weeks on the resale market. For example, if Marriott does not allow participation in the internal exchange system to transfer with your week when you sell it, who do you think wants to buy it from you?

I believe this is the issue hotcoffee was speaking to.

 

[SueDonJ]

The speculation concerns a new internal exchange system with the potential to devalue all weeks on the resale market. If Marriott does not allow participation in the internal exchange system to transfer with your week when you sell it, who do you think wants to buy it from you?

As I said before, the folks who do not care to exchange but rather are purchasing for consistent yearly use. Granted, those buyers will benefit by being able to negotiate an extremely good deal by virtue of the fact that the sellers will have a smaller pool of buyers with which to do business (because we assume that most folks want exchange privileges,) and the sellers will suffer a higher loss ratio.

But isn't that somewhat related to the current system whereby a developer-purchaser suffers a higher loss ratio than the resale-purchaser, when they each put identical weeks on the resale market? I think so, and now see it as this thread contains a contradiction in that resale purchasers have never up until this point been concerned with the devaluation of developer purchases.

 

[sdtugger]

As I said before, the folks who do not care to exchange but rather are purchasing for consistent yearly use. Granted, those buyers will benefit by being able to negotiate an extremely good deal by virtue of the fact that the sellers will have a smaller pool of buyers with which to do business (because we assume that most folks want exchange privileges,) and the sellers will suffer a higher loss ratio.

But isn't that somewhat related to the current system whereby a developer-purchaser suffers a higher loss ratio than the resale-purchaser, when they each put identical weeks on the resale market? I think so, and now see it as this thread contains a contradiction in that resale purchasers have never up until this point been concerned with the devaluation of developer purchases.

I'm not sure I totally follow your point. But, I can say that in the thread earlier this year on the potential for a different reservation system for developer and resale purchasers, I and a few others pointed out that all owners would suffer under that system because all owners would lose if they tried to sell.

That's one of the reasons that I asked Dave earlier what he thought Marriott was trying to accomplish. On the one hand, I believe that Marriott is trying to make developer sold units more appealing. On the other hand, just about any step to make developer sold units more appealing would by definition make ALL resale units less appealing. As a result, ALL current owners would suffer a devaluation in the product that they own. Dave says that Marriott recognizes this issue and will not roll something out that makes everyone mad. But, I'm still struggling with the concept. How is that possible unless Marriott is banking on the majority of owners not caring what their units might sell for in the future?

 

[Pit]

As I said before, the folks who do not care to exchange but rather are purchasing for consistent yearly use. Granted, those buyers will benefit by being able to negotiate an extremely good deal by virtue of the fact that the sellers will have a smaller pool of buyers with which to do business (because we assume that most folks want exchange privileges,) and the sellers will suffer a higher loss ratio.

Yes, those buyers will be able to negotiate an extremely good deal, and that means you will get a lot less when you sell your unit. That's the point. You are the seller in this scenario. Maybe that doesn't concern you, but I think it does concern most owners.

But isn't that somewhat related to the current system whereby a developer-purchaser suffers a higher loss ratio than the resale-purchaser, when they each put identical weeks on the resale market? I think so, and now see it as this thread contains a contradiction in that resale purchasers have never up until this point been concerned with the devaluation of developer purchases.

Resale purchasers are still not concerned with the devaluation of developer purchases. They are concerned about the devaluation of their own purchases. There is no contradiction in that, just self-preservation.

 

[taffy19]

When we were in Maui last March, the internal exchange system was mentioned already but not by the sales people at that time. It was mentioned by someone who works for the Marriott Vacation Club and gave the workshop for letting new buyers or anyone know how to make reservations and better exchanges with II, etc.

A few months later I asked a sales person about it and she told me that they had a meeting about it and the new system was mentioned but no details yet. It was mentioned that it would be rolled out in about a year. I recently called again because of what I read in this forum. I wanted to know how the new system will affect re-sales in the future for all of us.

I told her that re-sale prices would drop like a rock if re-sale buyers are treated differently from Marriott direct buyers as this is what is happening with the Wyndham resorts. She told me not to worry about it because Marriott would sell the week for me. If that is true, re-sale prices will not go to zero. We may have to pay 40% commission but that would be OK if it is based on the current sales prices. Even if they don't go up, you will still get 60% back of your original price and the new owner will get all the perks that come with the new system most likely. If Marriott is willing to sell the weeks for you, then I am not worried about it.

Most likely, they will exercise ROFR again, when the economy turns around and that will keep re-sale prices up again and the Marriott can sell these units with the new point system in place so that gives them more internal exchange inventory between older and newer resorts, if they start building at other locations again. There are locations where no resorts can be built anymore so they will always be attractive to buyers at the newest resorts for exchanging to these locations, if the resorts are kept up to date which they will.

I also feel that they can make changes in the reservation system if that is what they want to do but hopefully only for people who opt-in to go to the new system. The question is, can they do it with all contracts? As I have posted before, they changed the reservation rules for our first timeshare as I am positive that there was no mention of the 13 months reservation perk in our contract as it wasn't even introduced yet but there is a clause in our documents that says that they can make changes in the reservation system from time to time. We still had the 12 months reservation window so that wasn't really changed but half the inventory was no longer available to us so it made a big difference for the early contracts. I still haven't found my documents yet but when I find them, I will scan them and post it here.

We own a fixed unit/week and even that can be changed to a floating week/unit according to the documents but I would need an attorney to have it explained to me. As I understand it now, you have to request it and they will approve it. No way would I make this change but other people may automatically, if they opt-in to the new internal exchange system which is based on points, or it will be done by Marriott when they sell our week so it will be part of the new point system from thereon. I even wonder now if the fixed week/unit contracts will lose that status eventually and all fixed condos will revert back to a floating unit/week with a certain amount of points assigned to it?

I feel that Marriott is hurting themselves by having the sales people spreading these rumors around (not ours) but not giving more details. I would never buy a Marriott now and not even one for pennies on the dollar until they announce the new system. JMHO.

 

[FlyerBobcat]

"How do you know that????"

It doesn't take much to pick up pretty clearly the main reason people purchase resale is price. That's a very puzzling question!

Heidi,

I was simply responding to your quote, where you stated:

Those that bought resale knew there was a possibility that changes could occur regarding trading and they may not favor the resale buyer

.
not about price.....

 

[KathyPet]

I agree with you that if Marriott sells your unit for you your resale value is obviously not zero. The problem arises in that currently Marriott will not accept a unit to be listed for resale unless the resort is sold out of that particular season or unit view. So, in the case of someone needing to sell prior to a location being closed out due to divorce or death or job loss if they cannot get Marriott to sell it then it is virtually worthless.

 

[Pit]

No, values won't go to zero. Even Wyndham sells on ebay for more than zero. Marriott has a nice product, even without the exchange system.

So, they will sell your week. I don't think that's anything new. How long are you willing to wait? 1 year? 3 years? 5 years?

 

[m61376]

As a direct AND a resale Marriott buyer, I just wanted to say, that when we bought resale, the ONLY thing we knew we were giving up was the conversion of our week to points, nothing else. Certainly, we didn't think we'd be treated differently, and thankfully, that has been far from the case. Keeping that in mind, you shouldn't be surprised that we would be concerned over this matter.

I am glad you posted this. You have underscored what I think are critical points in the whole discussion as to how past/current resale purchasers should be treated. First of all, resale buyers bought under a system that they enjoyed all usage privileges that developer purchasers had; the only difference was they did not receive the perk of being able to trade for points. Some buyers felt this perk was worth spending thousands of dollars extra for, and others didn't. Those that didn't still actively supported the product, sustaining the value for ALL owners and supporting the individual resort(s) monetarily by paying MF's like everyone else.

Secondly, you're the perfect example of why it would be a bad business decision on Marriott's part to exclude any current owner from any new program. Many, if not most, resale owners have purchased at least one unit from Marriott directly and ALL resale owners are potentially future direct purchasers. It doesn't make good business sense to exclude and alienate any group of otherwise satisfied and loyal Marriott owners.

 

[Latravel]

Based on the comments we have been hearing, it looks like they would come up with a system to resell units. Maybe an expanded version of what they have now.

Tom- If you've been on this board for a while, you'll know that Marriott reserves the right to change the Vacation Club program as they wish. It's also very clearly stated in the documents I signed when I purchased my properties. That's how I know.