Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[PerryM]

Blood suckers beware...

We own WorldMark credits but I've not been to a WM resort in many years - exchange into II and stay at Marriotts.

When you check into a WM resort you are immediately hit with a caste system - at the front desk there is a VIP marked line and dedicated front desk clerk who only handles WM owners who have bought credits from WM direct, no resales, and they get faster service. I'm not a VIP member so I schlep through the long lines that await non VIP members. The developer, Wyndham, started this caste system and not the WM owners who actually own the damn resorts.

It's not a stretch of the imagination to see Marriott headed down this same path - folks who buy from Marriott and the blood suckers who buy resale.

The rumor of the Internal Exchange System that ONLY is available to Marriott bought weeks is the start of a caste system and why should they not get a VIP line at Marriott resorts?

Out of all the units that will go into this new exchange system 80% will be us owners (just a guess) - why are we to all of a sudden be thrown into a caste system? Marriott is the hired help at most Marriotts - the tail now wags the dog?

 

[Zac495]

Again, I cannot understand why everyone is running around exclaiming the sky is falling without any facts. If you sell your weeks preemptively that is your choice, although I believe it is the wrong one. Keep a clear head when rumors circulate and you will be fine. Wait for the final story and don't believe Marriott salespeople who have their own agenda in mind. Stay cool, real cool, as they sang in West Side story.

Marilyn,
The sky keeps falling with Marriott lately - so that's why I think people are speculating. Points devalued, no more points with financing, super high fees at Aruba ....

Would I buy a Marriott now? Only at a ridiculously low price - if I got ridiculously lucky.

 

[mjbaran]

Perhaps Marriott is rattling the saber about a points sytem to force a concession from II? Better revenue sharing? Who knows? It is a distinct possibility that they are threatening to depart to sweeten the arrangement.

I read somewhere that Marriott is part owner of II

 

[CMF]

And you'll start the poll by responding....

Sure . . . I'm waiting for the dust to settle. I don't have enough information to make a reasonable decision. So, my answer is 1.

Charles

 

[icydog]

If Marriott departs II, and with DVC's departure this year, I think II will be in for a vast devaluation. I also portend that II will start to lose other highend timeshare systems if this happens. After all why give a great Hyatt week in for exchange if all you have left are some straglers which nobody wants.

 

[Bill4728]

I read somewhere that Marriott is part owner of II

Many years ago Marriott did own or was owned by a company which also owns II. That has not been true for several (maybe many) years.

 

[icydog]

Marilyn,
The sky keeps falling with Marriott lately - so that's why I think people are speculating. Points devalued, no more points with financing, super high fees at Aruba ....

Would I buy a Marriott now? Only at a ridiculously low price - if I got ridiculously lucky.

Ellen, I just sent an email to my Marriott sales rep. I will post her answers here.

I just don't think Marriott would be so dollar foolish as to lose a vast audience like those who bought from resellers. I, for one, would not subscribe to a system in which I am treated like a second class citizen as Perry has described. I'd sell my weeks if that was the end outcome of this.

Thankfully, as you know, I now own where I want to go, so this may be academic to me. Of course, there will be times I will want to exchange and this is not the atmosphere I wish to encounter when I make that decision.

So yes, I see your side..I am hoping it doesn't come to the regretful ending everyone is leaning towards here on Tug. Take care..

 

[Latravel]

I understand what a few posters are saying that they had an expectation of how the system was when they bought therefore Marriott has a moral obligation to continue.

It has never happened that way in the past so why would it happen in the future? Marriott can and will change the system now and in the future. There have been some negative changes: Point devaluations, removing the points for financing program. And there have been some positive changes: including stays at Marriott timeshares toward Elite credit, removing black out times.

They have to change to be competitive, to be in alignment with other timeshare companies, to be profitable, to offer new programs to attract new customers. Is this morally wrong? Were you cheated? NO!!!! As others have said, we still have the right to use our one week a year at our resort and they cannot alter this right. There just may be some changes to the other perks but that was a risk you took when you purchased outside the Marriott system because you didn't feel those perks were worth paying the extra cost. You didn't pay for those benefits upfront.

I don't feel Marriott can do what ever they want. I just don't have the same anxiety that others may feel. I bought direct from Marriott for this peace of mind. How much is this worth to you?

 

[PerryM]

Rumor Central...

Just remember folks that for 2+ years Marriott has spread this rumor through their agents at sales presentations - this is not an Alligator In The Sewer rumor, this is an officially sponsored rumor designed to frighten folks into buying from Marriott.

This is despicable from a Fortune 500 company.

Marriott's rumor could have been "ALL owners, no matter how they became owners, will get a 21st century, Marriott only, exchange system".

But no, Marriott had to introduce a caste system and immediately use the rumor as a weapon against us.

Marriott is 100% responsible for this rumor - I believe Dave and don't think for a second he embellished a single word - we are getting an official rumor from Marriott Central.

We can put on rose colored glasses I suppose but that rumor is used as a weapon and not something that benefits the owners of the resorts that Marriott cleans the toilets.

 

[Bill4728]

Just wanted to remind everyone that the other big three hotel based TS systems have had a "point-based" internal exchange system for a long time. Here is how they do theirs:

Hilton: everyone, no matter how they purchased, is in the point system. The points for peak weeks is basically the same for most of their resorts. Though Hawaii is higher and you'd only get a 1 bd instead of a 2 bd in hawaii.

Hyatt: everyone, no matter how they purchased, is in the point system. The points for peak weeks is basically the same for most of their resorts.

Westin/Starwood: Most resale buyers are excluded from the point system. The points for their nicest resorts are lot more than the points for their lessor resorts. Resale buyers at only an handful of Westin resorts are allowed in. At all the other Starwood resorts you can't join the point system at any price unless you buy another week direct from starwood. All owners who bought before the point system started were grandfathered into the system for ~$500.

Marriott could choose to do a system like Hilton or Hyatt but it looks like they are going to follow Starwood.

 

[SueDonJ]

Just wanted to remind everyone that the other big three hotel based TS systems have had a "point-based" internal exchange system for a long time. Here is how they do theirs:

Hilton: everyone, no matter how they purchased, is in the point system. The points for peak weeks is basically the same for most of their resorts. Though Hawaii is higher and you'd only get a 1 bd instead of a 2 bd in hawaii.

Hyatt: everyone, no matter how they purchased, is in the point system. The points for peak weeks is basically the same for most of their resorts.

Westin/Starwood: Most resale buyers are excluded from the point system. The points for their nicest resorts are lot more than the points for their lessor resorts. Resale buyers at only an handful of Westin resorts are allowed in. At all the other Starwood resorts you can't join the point system at any price unless you buy another week direct from starwood. All owners who bought before the point system started were grandfathered into the system for ~$500.

Marriott could choose to do a system like Hilton or Hyatt but it looks like they are going to follow Starwood.

I don't know anything about these programs.

Are they similar to MVCI where deeded rights entitle the owners to the purchased season/resort/unit configurations to occupy/rent/exchange, which would mean the points programs you've outlined are related to only exchanges within those three systems?

Or, are they similar to DVC where deeded rights entitle the owners to the purchased number of points with priority for home resort reservations, which would mean that the points programs you've outlined are an extension of the purchased points within those three systems?

 

[BocaBum99]

Just wanted to remind everyone that the other big three hotel based TS systems have had a "point-based" internal exchange system for a long time. Here is how they do theirs:

Hilton: everyone, no matter how they purchased, is in the point system. The points for peak weeks is basically the same for most of their resorts. Though Hawaii is higher and you'd only get a 1 bd instead of a 2 bd in hawaii.

Hyatt: everyone, no matter how they purchased, is in the point system. The points for peak weeks is basically the same for most of their resorts.

Westin/Starwood: Most resale buyers are excluded from the point system. The points for their nicest resorts are lot more than the points for their lessor resorts. Resale buyers at only an handful of Westin resorts are allowed in. At all the other Starwood resorts you can't join the point system at any price unless you buy another week direct from starwood. All owners who bought before the point system started were grandfathered into the system for ~$500.

Marriott could choose to do a system like Hilton or Hyatt but it looks like they are going to follow Starwood.

Following Starwood and Diamond is actually a really bad idea. It's too bad that Marriott isn't building a point system as a fundamental aspect of the ownership. In my opinion, that really weakens the system.

All the best point systems have permanent multi-site reservation privileges that are a fundamental feature of the ownership. In other words, you can't take it away.

The one's that treat the point system as an addon to a product are the weakest.

 

[indyhorizons]

Westin/Starwood: At all the other Starwood resorts you can't join the point system at any price unless you buy another week direct from starwood. All owners who bought before the point system started were grandfathered into the system for ~$500. .

Does this purchase have to come after the fact? IOW, if someone owns a developer week, and also owns resale, are they eligible then?

 

[LisaRex]

Does this purchase have to come after the fact? IOW, if someone owns a developer week, and also owns resale, are they eligible then?

The one purchased from the developer trades in the internal system (SVN) or II. The one purchased on the resale market cannot participate in SVN unless the resale purchase was made first and the owner was able to get Starwood to requalify it (bring it into SVN) as a condition of closing on the subsequent developer purchase.

Clear as mud?

 

[Bill4728]

Originally Posted by Bill4728
Westin/Starwood: At all the other Starwood resorts you can't join the point system at any price unless you buy another week direct from starwood.

Does this purchase have to come after the fact? IOW, if someone owns a developer week, and also owns resale, are they eligible then?

This is discussed over on the starwood board. BUT in a nut shell:
You buy a resale week at a Starwood resort, then buy a second week direct from starwood ( at any of their resorts) and get the resale week " retro'd " and it's like both weeks were bought direct from Starwood.

Generally, you can not do it the other way around. You can not buy direct, then buy resale and get the resale "retro'd"

 

[indyhorizons]

The one purchased from the developer trades in the internal system (SVN) or II. The one purchased on the resale market cannot participate in SVN unless the resale purchase was made first and the owner was able to get Starwood to requalify it (bring it into SVN) as a condition of closing on the subsequent developer purchase.

Clear as mud?

Believe it or not, yes I do understand that. Scary?

 

[Bill4728]

The real key to Marriott new system will be this paragraph by Dave.

Originally Posted by DaveM
Those who bought directly from Marriott will pay a relatively low fee if they choose to join the points program. Marriott intends to make the fee low enough so that many, many owners will join. Those who bought resale will pay a higher fee, possibly much higher, if they wish to join. I don't know yet whether there will be any partial or full grandfathering for those who purchased resale before a particular unknown date.

-If the fee is small enough to get people to switch, then many people will likely switch, but if Marriott tries to do what most RCI resorts are doing when they introduce RCI points ( cost to resort $200, cost to owner >$3000) Then IMHO, very few people will pay to convert to points.

Following Starwood and Diamond is actually a really bad idea. It's too bad that Marriott isn't building a point system as a fundamental aspect of the ownership. In my opinion, that really weakens the system.

All the best point systems have permanent multi-site reservation privileges that are a fundamental feature of the ownership. In other words, you can't take it away.

The one's that treat the point system as an addon to a product are the weakest.

I have to agree with Boca. "All the best point systems have permanent multi-site reservation privileges that are a fundamental feature of the ownership. In other words, you can't take it away."

But I think that Marriott thinks it can make money when there is a switch to this new system. Therefore Marriott will charge all current owners to join the new system. If Marriott gets too greedy, because of higher fee than is necessary, many owners may not choose to join.

 

[BocaBum99]

I have to agree with Boca. "All the best point systems have permanent multi-site reservation privileges that are a fundamental feature of the ownership. In other words, you can't take it away."

But I think that Marriott thinks it can make money when there is a switch to this new system. Therefore Marriott will charge all current owners to join the new system. If Marriott gets too greedy, because of higher fee than is necessary, many owners may not choose to join.

It really depends on the amount that Marriott charges. If I were selling the Marriott resale product, I could sell it (if what I think "it" is turns out to be close to what Marriott offers) as a $1000-2000 add on if they had a rudimentary point system where you could book partial weeks and there are differential values for the various Marriott properties by season, unit size, unit type and day of the week AND an Open Season like feature. If they have just that, I could sell it as a premium offer over resale prices.

If Marriott makes the fee $5000, I wouldn't even look at the product. I can't imagine them creating a product that would be worth that premium over II.

 

[SueDonJ]

I have to agree with Boca. "All the best point systems have permanent multi-site reservation privileges that are a fundamental feature of the ownership. In other words, you can't take it away."

But I think that Marriott thinks it can make money when there is a switch to this new system. Therefore Marriott will charge all current owners to join the new system. If Marriott gets too greedy, because of higher fee than is necessary, many owners may not choose to join.

Exactly. Too high a buy-in fee will defeat the purpose of Marriott implementing an internal exchange system, because as you say then not enough owners will join to generate the buy-in and exchange fees that Marriott must be banking on. Why offer what amounts to a new revenue source if you can logically expect that it won't sell?

 

[mas]

You reference the Hyatt points system, but isn't this the only system they offer? Marriott's program is proposed to be optional. I stand that #1 and #2 are both quite possible in this new scenario.

The point I was trying to make was that the fact that a program implements an internal points system doesn't necessarily equate to less availability in an affiliated exchange company (II). To my way of thinking Marriott's program is proposed to be optional whereas Hyatt's is not. This, I would think, would make more Marriott's available to II, not less, as not all owners will buy into the internal trade program.

 

[indyhorizons]

If Marriott makes the fee $5000, I wouldn't even look at the product. I can't imagine them creating a product that would be worth that premium over II.

Yes, but you are making an assumption that the existing Marriott:II relationship continues to exist as we know it. If there are changes (no 24-day window preference, no developer week deposits, etc), will the II product continue to be a viable product. Some changes that Marriott may implement in this relationship may make their product seem more attractive, even if the fee is exorbitant. It leaves the owners in a catch-22.

 

[LisaRex]

The point I was trying to make was that the fact that a program impliments an internal points system doesn't necessarily equate to less availability in an affiliated exchange company (II). To my way of thinking Marriott's program is proposed to be optional whereas Hyatt's is not. This, I would think, would make more Marriott's available to II, not less, as not all owners will buy into the internal trade program.

I thought all trades are currently done via II. If Marriott creates its own system, a portion of the inventory will be diverted into that program, ergo less inventory in II vs. now.

No?

 

[indyhorizons]

The point I was trying to make was that the fact that a program impliments an internal points system doesn't necessarily equate to less availability in an affiliated exchange company (II). To my way of thinking Marriott's program is proposed to be optional whereas Hyatt's is not. This, I would think, would make more Marriott's available to II, not less, as not all owners will buy into the internal trade program.

I agree that would be ideal. But why bother entering into this internal program at all if it won't make them money? Why even bother? They have to have a plan for this to be profitable and successful. Therefore, I believe there will be some incentive to get owners to join. Whether it is low entry fees, or a bonus week, or Marriott rewards points.

In which case, just like people go to the sales presentations for $100 in gift certificates or 10,000 MRP, (which I have long ago decided are not worth my time when I have no intention of buying and the incentives are not enough to lose valuable vacation time) Marriott can dangle some other meaningless carrot and many people will flock to this program. Maybe not all, I for one plan on not doing so if at all feasible. But if I find an impact to my II experience, I may find I have no other choice, other than always going to my home resort.

 

[indyhorizons]

I thought all trades are currently done via II. If Marriott creates its own system, a portion of the inventory will be diverted into that program, ergo less inventory in II vs. now.

No?

Not only that, but think of the owners who won't/don't trade at all. So they won't be in either pool of inventory. Of course, that's no different than now. The thing I worry about is Marriott is going to obviously keep those developer weeks in their program, wouldn't you think? Or the inventory they can't rent. Those would likely go into a flexchange program for their "MEP".

 

[BocaBum99]

Not only that, but think of the owners who won't/don't trade at all. So they won't be in either pool of inventory. Of course, that's no different than now. The thing I worry about is Marriott is going to obviously keep those developer weeks in their program, wouldn't you think? Or the inventory they can't rent. Those would likely go into a flexchange program for their "MEP".

Exactly! That is why I believe a bonus time program ala the HGVC Open Season program would be worth a $1000-2000 premium over resale price to enroll a week.

Marriott wants to control all of the inventory. They can do it if all owners automatically deposit their week into their internal program. That gives them the flexibility of offer bonus time, trade ups, etc.

The biggest source of real gain in a weeks based system such as Marriott currently has is in recapturing value from breakage in weeks. That breakage is hugely valuable. FAR more than an exchange fees that Marriott can get.