Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[verby]

low fee

I don't own any mvc but my timeshare went a while ago to the point system and their 'low fee' is $5000... Thank you but NO... just my 2c.

 

[dioxide45]

Not to add a further kink into the thought process but when you own the deeded property...you own it. Most points memberships expire after a period of time.

I was just reading the MVCI AP thread ans their points will expire in 2056. Now, I know that is a long time away and I probably won't live that long but my kids may. That is one the selling points when you attend a seminar, "You can pass this onto your children."

So, if you pay to convert over to the point system will your points expire at a specified date or do you own them in perpitude?

From the survey many took it seemed that Marriott planned to expire your membership in the program every three years or so. You would have to re-up in the program every time paying a new fee each time. A great money maker for Marriott IMO. Now just because this was in the survey doesn't mean it will be in the final program, but it shows they are thinking about it. It also provides good flexibility for the owners since if they don't like it they can drop out.

 

[Clemson Fan]

MFs will definitely be impacted. If Gold weeks are assigned lower points values, they will have a proportionately lower MF, Platinum owners will now have to pay the difference.

Maria

This is actually a great point.

If you look at Disney's system, you buy a certain number of points at your "home" resort and then your MF's are based on the number of points you own. You can then reserve at your "home" resort for any day or week of the year at 11 months out and for other Disney resorts at 7 months out. The point value assigned to any particular day or room size is based on demand. So, getting a 2 bedroom room on Dec 31st is going to cost you a heck of a lot more points then a 2 bedroom on a Wed in October.

Now if you translate the same thought process to a new point system with Marriott, then at resorts like ski resorts where there's clearly a huge difference between ski weeks and non ski weeks, owners of ski weeks will need to be given a ton of points to compensate them for their ownership week should they decide to make the conversion.

Now, what about the MF's??? Is there a way to separate what you owe in MF's from the amount of points you "own"???

Currently, the owner of a ski week pays the same MF's as the owner of a bronze week. This is fair since it's reflected in the initial purchase price of 30-50K for the ski week vs. <5K for the bronze week, and everybody knows what the MF arrangement is at the time of purchase. Now, if say for argument sake the owner of a ski week gets 500 points in the new system while the owner of a bronze week gets 100 points. If the MF's are then tied into the number of points you own, then that ski week owner will be paying 5 times as much in MF's as the bronze week owner. That immediately significantly devalues the value of the ski week and decreases the initial inherent value received by paying such a high initial purchase price for a ski week.

Marriott doesn't even handle their internal MVCI reservation system well (e.g. no wait list, etc.), so I have very little faith that if they roll this out it won't be an absolute utter mess for at least 5 years. They should concentrate on making good fixes in their current system rather than reinventing the wheel which I think will be a dissaster.

 

[BocaBum99]

I don't think you're comparing apples to apples. For whatever reason, in the II world, apparently these are great traders. Past performance obviously bears this out.

I'm not trying to compare apples to apples. II will not be the same as Marriott. II = Apple. Marriott internal = Orange. I am trying to get some insight as to how Marriott will construct its Orange and see how it might differ from the II Apple.

When we understand the differences, the better buys may be different resorts than they are for II.

 

[BocaBum99]

From the survey many took it seemed that Marriott planned to expire your membership in the program every three years or so. You would have to re-up in the program every time paying a new fee each time. A great money maker for Marriott IMO. Now just because this was in the survey doesn't mean it will be in the final program, but it shows they are thinking about it. It also provides good flexibility for the owners since if they don't like it they can drop out.

If this happens, it will be more like RCI Points. I hate that program. I hope Marriott doesn't create such a model.

 

[JimIg23]

ahh. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If Marriott becomes Starwood, I'm selling.

 

[BocaBum99]

This is the direct link

I don't think people tout Manor Club and Branson as being the top of the trading heap, but just that they are good traders which can be purchased at a relatively lower price point and have lower annual MF's.

I think the only indication as to possibly how Marriott values different sizes/views/seasons can be found in the posts by Starbucks describing the Asia Pacific program. Although it only references the resorts in that system, my guess that it is indicative of how Marriott relatively values things.

What we are trying to find are two ratios:

1) Purchase Price / Number of Points.

2) $MF / Number of Points.

Whichever has the best combination of the above (lowest ratio) is the resort to buy.

Of course, if the program provides advantage at a single resort you own, these ratios aren't important when you use your home resort. These ratios are only meaningful if you use them for internal exchanges.

 

[FlyerBobcat]

MFs will definitely be impacted. If Gold weeks are assigned lower points values, they will have a proportionately lower MF, Platinum owners will now have to pay the difference.

Maria

Someone will have to straighten me out on this one....

Isn't the MF set by the resort's BoD?

So if a platinum owner does not opt in to this new points system, why should their MFs go up?

 

[thinze3]

It will get worked out. Aren't Grand Chateau and Ko Olina currently both weeks and points resorts.

 

[Pit]

Someone will have to straighten me out on this one....

Isn't the MF set by the resort's BoD?

So if a platinum owner does not opt in to this new points system, why should their MFs go up?

I don't think you have to worry about this. When you bought, you purchased a fractional interest in a condo, same as everyone else. Your MFs are based on your fractional interest, not some arbitrary point allocation. Disney is a different animal. Read your deed.

 

[lovearuba]

HOAs

Marriott is in a pickle - they should be offering more and not less to owners.

This is NOT the purpose of such and exchange program - the one you describe already exists and apparently many owners are happy.

Its all about Marriott's sales. I'm pretty confident that if such a system is introduced you will get:

1) Eye watering initiation fee
2) Point for Point exchanges - forget about the great II deals
3) Resales hurt with the exchange system not transferring from owner to owner
4) Complicated - 2 exchange systems working at once

So the Marriott owner will have to settle for less and Marriott wants more profit from us.

Marriott owners would be better off if we just got together with RedWeek and came up with our own exchange system. RedWeek's Point system already exists and if Marriott owners got behind it they could take on II.

I'd suggest that the various HOAs start approaching RedWeek and just do it ourselves.

Disney owners could do the same thing.

Hi Perry
I agree with everything you say, with one small exception. I do not think the Home Owner associations at Marriott will be left with any power to go against Marriott, look at the way they treated the Marriott Aruba Ocean club when we wanted to get different members on the board. That board is definately Marriott puppets and as soon as owners try to replace any, Marriott will miraculously find those B votes.

 

[hotcoffee]

If Marriott makes decisions that lower the value of your property to zero and it costs extra money to get trading privileges, the value could go to less than zero, i.e. you may have to pay someone to take over your responsibilities to the property.
ray

Oh man. I was feeling bad when I thought I would have to sell my Marriott for $1 to get someone to assume those high MFs. Now you're telling me that I may have to pay someone to take it off my hands! I hope that does not become a reality!

 

[m61376]

Terry- yes they are.

As for the whole MF question, it will be interesting to see what Marriott decides to do. In the Asia Pacific program, as it has been explained on Tug, a point is a point, and MF's are equalized amongst all resorts in the system. Thus, relatively high MF resorts such as those in Hawaii actually have lower MF's under their points program. Furthermore, since you are no longer paying resort specific MF's, that expensive Plat. week- which will be awarded high point values- will also be encumbered with higher MF's (since the fees are tied to the point valuation). An owner of a Gold week at the same resort will enjoy lower MF's, but will also have less points to reserve with.

The loophole here is that if you own a Gold week at resort X and intend to use that week at resort X, you will be given ownership of enough points to make that reservation, but will be paying a significantly lower MF than the Platinum week owner who is using all his points to make a reservation in his owned week. If you are using your owned week and not trading, you won't care that you've been awarded fewer points, but will be happy that you have lower MF's. Similarly, a Platinum week at a lesser rated resort might be awarded less points, but it doesn't matter if the owner is using the week. There are some owners who will definitely see a big drop in their MF's, which other owners will have to balance out of necessity. If MF's are spread amongst all resorts in the program, a hurricane or fire,etc., at one, or even the need to refurbish, will impact everyone, not only owners of that resort.

Of course, Marriott may enact a different program than it has in its Asia Pacific program, but it is likely that that program is a testing ground for the future.

 

[m61376]

I don't think you have to worry about this. When you bought, you purchased a fractional interest in a condo, same as everyone else. Your MFs are based on your fractional interest, not some arbitrary point allocation. Disney is a different animal. Read your deed.

Yes- but IF you opt into the points program then the rules of the game change.

 

[lovearuba]

not a good strategy

I will always agree that going directly to the source will result in more satisfaction than is possible to gain by any other method. But why wait? Several pages back Superchief suggested that letters be sent to Mr. Babich now. It's as good a strategy as any for doing all you can do to make your opinions clear, especially if you feel as strongly as you appear to about all this.



If that is truly the case, then I will thank you to stop putting words in my mouth that I have not said, and attributing a caste system among owners which I have not done.

Go ahead, go to the source and see where that gets you. I'll sit back and watch. Let me know how you make out. I'll check in again after you get no response. Our opinions holds no weight when it comes to the almighty dollar.

 

[SueDonJ]

Maybe it's just me but I am getting very confused here with the last couple pages worth of posts. I know that all of this is speculation, but didn't Dave's original post here mention that MVCI is considering a points value system with respect to only the exchange option of our ownership usage?

Why are we off on so many tangents that have to do with a weeks-to-points conversion that would impact every single aspect of our ownership? Especially since we all pretty much agree that the specific resort/unit/season configuration that we bought is protected by deeded rights, as are the stipulated usage options - occupy, rent, exchange? And that the protections contained in our deeds/ownership contracts prohibit Marriott/MVCI from making changes which would effectively remove any of those deeded rights?

Is it because Marriott/MVCI recently rolled out information about the AP point conversion? Are we perhaps not separating that info from what was provided by Dave's source? Should we be?

I know, I know, it's all speculation so what's the harm in going off tangent anyway? And these are a lot of questions. But I'm just saying, I think that all these tangents are making what's in development more confusing than it should be. And maybe not really very productive if our objective is to discuss/analyze whatever exchange system Marriott/MVCI wants to try to force on us?

Or maybe I'm totally off base here.

 

[taffy19]

If this happens, it will be more like RCI Points. I hate that program. I hope Marriott doesn't create such a model.

Jim, did you see this post already plus the rest of the thread? There is a very big difference in the required points for different resorts depending on were the resort is, what season and type of unit and for what day of the week. This whole thread is quite an eye opener and also about the maintenance fees that may change depending on how many points you get. Can they do this even if you don't want to join the new system?

I wished Marriott would stop the rumors from spreading even further by coming out with some type of statement to all of us.

 

[dioxide45]

Jim, did you see this post already plus the rest of the thread? There is a very big difference in the required points for different resorts depending on were the resort is, what season and type of unit and for what day of the week. This whole thread is quite an eye opener and also about the maintenance fees that may change depending on how many points you get. Can they do this even if you don't want to join the new system?

I wished Marriott would stop the rumors from spreading even further by coming out with some type of statement to all of us.

You really can't reference the rest of the thread in any real way as fact. Everything but the initial post is pure speculation, much if it off base of what the OP was passing along. Much of the rumor here is built by other Tuggers and not from Marriott in any way.

 

[Michigan Czar]

Maybe it's just me but I am getting very confused here with the last couple pages worth of posts. I know that all of this is speculation, but didn't Dave's original post here mention that MVCI is considering a points value system with respect to only the exchange option of our ownership usage?

Why are we off on so many tangents that have to do with a weeks-to-points conversion that would impact every single aspect of our ownership?
Or maybe I'm totally off base here.

Susan, I agree with you. From what I understand the points option is only used when you are trading your unit for another. It has nothing to do with ownership, maintenance fees, etc.

I too am confused why everyone keeps going off on this tangent!

Everyone, Dave only mentioned if you opt in when trading your unit, nothing to do with a change to a point system for ownership. Let's get back to the original topic please. If Susan and I are missing something please explain it to us.

 

[dioxide45]

Susan, I agree with you. From what I understand the points option is only used when you are trading your unit for another. It has nothing to do with ownership, maintenance fees, etc.

I too am confused why everyone keeps going off on this tangent!

Everyone, Dave only mentioned if you opt in when trading your unit, nothing to do with a change to a point system for ownership. Let's get back to the original topic please.

I agree.

I think the easiest way for Marriott to implement this is an overlay program where points are really only used for exchange purposes. This doesn't change your base deeded ownership and MF are what each BOD sets for their own resorts. This type of program has the fewest legal issues with it. When a new purchaser buys their purchase price includes the overlay program. They will still be deeded a week and unit and that will have a value in the program. Current owners can buy in at a fixed cost and get the same value based on what they own.

Trying to change the basic foundation from weeks to points is very difficult and has far more legal challenges than an overlay program would have.

This really won't give anyone much more than II currently offers, one may be able to do shorter stays (II now has short stay exchange), check in any day of the week (II now has this). This may be why II has come out with their new short stay exchange program. Though an internal program would offer more flexibility at your home resort.

Ultimately this is a way for Marriott to make more money, no other reason for it. It won't come free for anyone.

 

[laurac260]

Marriott has total control over this rumor - they could easily instruct their employees (MVCI) to cut it out. But they haven't for 3 years and use their rumor in their sales pitches if you lean towards not buying.

I've bumped into this rumor in the last 5 sales tours I believe - this is a coordinated effort on Marriott's part and they should know better.

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, and I sense that you may be, but I have to tend to agree with you a bit on this one. I am not saying that this is only a rumor, I have absolutely no background or experience from which to draw a conclusion on this topic, but I can tell you from very recent experience with Marriott salespeople that some have no problem perpetuating rumors (outright lies) to assist in advancing a sale, or at the very least, creatin confusion to keep someone from purchasing resale. I was told by a salesperson yesterday that "this is a good ole' boy's network" (not sure if he meant Marriott, South Carolina, or the Barony), and that they definitely make a distinction between internal and external owners, and that the internal owners always get the best units. Two different people at the front desk assured me they really have no ability to tell whether someone is internal or external while they are in the process of assigning units, but that didn't stop the salesperson. He was very, very specific in his statement, and repeated it many times.

 

[chalucky]

Just for fun

The Aruba thread has 1803 posts and has been going on for many months....I expect this thread will overtake that one within seven days!

 

[laurac260]

"I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property)."

I am confused by this comment. When I signed my purchase documents, Marriott had us intial a very long list of qualifiers. I remember clearly the documents stating that Marriott could change the system at their discretion(not exactly in those words). To me, if they change the vacation club rules, I do not feel it is morally wrong in any way since they disclosed this fact and I accepted. They disclose all the facts so people don't come back later and say, "I had an expectation..."

Even if you purchase resale, don't you get the same documents? Can you really say you didn't know or didn't you read your purchase agreement?


SueDon - you don't have to assume, it's written in the documents.

In a nutshell, if you purchase resale, no, you do not get the same documents. The agreement that was sent to me yesterday to buy a resale WAS NOT a Marriott document.

 

[laurac260]

"I know the distinction I have been making is that current resale owners bought with the expectation and understanding that the only difference in use was the inability to enjoy the perk of trading for points. I think it is morally wrong for Marriott to change the game after being a party to the sale (after all, they approved the resale and transferred the property)."

I am confused by this comment. When I signed my purchase documents, Marriott had us intial a very long list of qualifiers. I remember clearly the documents stating that Marriott could change the system at their discretion(not exactly in those words). To me, if they change the vacation club rules, I do not feel it is morally wrong in any way since they disclosed this fact and I accepted. They disclose all the facts so people don't come back later and say, "I had an expectation..."

Even if you purchase resale, don't you get the same documents? Can you really say you didn't know or didn't you read your purchase agreement?


SueDon - you don't have to assume, it's written in the documents.

also, as a resale purchaser, you really have to dig, dig, dig to get the honest answer as to what a resale purchaser does/does not get. I'm still not sure I have gotten the honest answers.

 

[gmarine]

In a nutshell, if you purchase resale, no, you do not get the same documents. The agreement that was sent to me yesterday to buy a resale WAS NOT a Marriott document.

Of course the agreement wasnt from Marriott. Your not buying it from Marriott. You can request a copy of the resorts governing documents which are the same as someone buying direct from Marriott.