Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[taffy19]

You really can't reference the rest of the thread in any real way as fact. Everything but the initial post is pure speculation, much if it off base of what the OP was passing along. Much of the rumor here is built by other Tuggers and not from Marriott in any way.

I have read several times on TUG that there are sales people who are spreading these rumors and I remember one in particular because we owned at this resort so so could find it quickly. I even read that Marriott wants this to happen at another thread but I don't remember who posted this and at what resort it was so cannot find the link so quickly but may look for it as I am not making this up. Why would I? There is enough confusion already.

If sales people are spreading rumors or are lying to us then Marriott needs to stop them if they want to keep their integrity as a resort developer. Personally, I have never experienced this with all our updates over the years as I would challenge them immediately and let the Sales Manager know about it. They can stop it too.

People are worried about it judging from so many posts in only two days since Dave posted this. I am very worried.

PS. I found the thread (post #11 and #32). I knew I had read it somewhere and didn't make it up. I was planning to make a comment about it but changed my mind. I will do it here and that is that Marriott needs to clean up their act if they allow these rumors to fly. We have enough insecurity already with the economy the way it is and all the other changes that are hanging over our head. Just listen to the news.

 

[mas]

What I find curious is that a lot of people feel that once a point system is instituted, Marriott trades through II will dry up and:
1) those trying to trade into a Marriott through II will find it difficult, if not impossible to do so, and
2) those who do deposit their Marriott units to II will somehow have achieved super trade status.

If that were the case, then I suspect that I should have an impossible situation trying to trade into a points based system, as an outsider. This, however, is not the case, as I have experienced it. As already mentioned, Hyatt is a points based system that trades through II. For the last 9 out of 10 years I have routinely traded into Hyatt's Key West resorts through II with what I would consider relatively little problems. This suggests to me that neither case #1 or #2 will come to pass.

So my guess is that the world will not end, if, or more probably, when Marriott implements a points system. My advice: step back; take a deep breath; and wait for the details to develop.

 

[Latravel]

"In a nutshell, if you purchase resale, no, you do not get the same documents."

This explains so much. I wish I could locate my purchase documents (i'm in the process of moving) so I could list the items they made us initial. There was a list of maybe 35 disclosure sentences.

Like i've posted before, Marriott was very clear, and made us initial next to the sentence, that timeshares are not an investment and no promises of resale value was implied. I personally believe I will receive some sort of return should I sell, but it was never promised to me.

They were also clear about reserving their right to change the program. I find it interesting when people say Marriott cannot apply changes to previous resale purchasers. Oh yes they can and they made us sign the documents to make sure we understood this point.

This is a flaw in the system if resale purchasers don't get these documents! These documents are almost like the truth after the sales pitch. Maybe that's why some people have unrealistic expectations?

 

[davidvel]

"In a nutshell, if you purchase resale, no, you do not get the same documents."

This explains so much. I wish I could locate my purchase documents (I'm in the process of moving) so I could list the items they made us initial. There was a list of maybe 35 disclosure sentences.

They were also clear about reserving their right to change the program. I find it interesting when people say Marriott cannot apply changes to previous resale purchasers. Oh yes they can and they made us sign the documents to make sure we understood this point.

This is a flaw in the system if resale purchasers don't get these documents! These documents are almost like the truth after the sales pitch. Maybe that's why some people have unrealistic expectations?

No, these "documents" are irrelevant to resale purchasers because they didn't contract with Marriott to buy their timeshare/condo interest.

This goes to the heart of nearly all my posts and my goal to inform and educate people about what deeded "rights" people have vs. what are simply contractual "add-ons" which Marriott contends it can change at will (ie. bonus MRP points on its egregious loans, trading for points, your personal adviser, etc.)

I would love to see the documents that everyone always refers to which (at least according to all the posts I read from direct buyers) evidence the illusory contract that they entered into with Marriott (ie. Marriott promises things that they can at their own whim change or rescind, etc.) Note: if one side in a contract can change the terms when they want, it is not a contract... but I digress.

also, as a resale purchaser, you really have to dig, dig, dig to get the honest answer as to what a resale purchaser does/does not get. I'm still not sure I have gotten the honest answers.

Many people often say that resale purchasers "lose the right" to exchange for points, or other perceived benefits. I see it from a different perspective. There are two parts to a Marriott timeshare ownership (the following should be a sticky named YOUR MARRIOTT "RIGHTS" 101):

1. DIRECT and RESALE BUYERS have equivalent deeded rights
Your rights in your deed=Your right to reserve a week in your season, at your resort, 12/13 months in advance, and use it as you wish (yourself, friend, family, rent out, any exchange program you choose to contract with). MF you pay are up to your HOA (mostly controlled by Marriott but legally distinct.) Marriott doesn't own your TS or project, you do. Any "documents" you signed as a direct purchaser have nothing to do with these rights other than that Marriott had to transfer the deed to you, after which they are done. As a resale purchaser, you got the same deed. The deed and accompanying CCRs, etc. do not distinguish between direct purchasers and resale purchasers.

2. Other stuff
anything other than 1, above, is (apparently) subject to change at any time at the whim of Marriott or any other vendor. In reality this "other stuff" isn't part of your rights as a "Marriott" timeshare owner, but a "side deal" or deals that may have been promised to you as part of the sale, or something you perceived you were getting. You should not think that this is a "right" that you have.

This other stuff (which may or may not be available to a direct or resale purchaser) includes: right to trade unit for points for round the world trips or weeks in Paris (which of course will never be devalued), glorious promises about trading your unit with II's program (salesman:"You can lock off this mud week and trade the studio for a 2BR in Maui..."), promises in your sales presentation about bonus MRP each year you repay your loan (which of course won't be withdrawn), the new Marriott internal trading program, redweek, is subject to change, renegotiation, etc.


In fact, few people realize that legally Marriott has no ongoing direct obligation to you at all. They have an indirect obligation as a manager of your resort for the HOA. They don't have any legal obligation as manager to do anything other than 1, above, or what it contracts with the HOA to do, which contract can end. This means that your resort called "Marriott's XXXXX resort" could become "XXXXX resort," once the management contract ends (and this has happened.) This is the leverage Marriott has to demand high management fees (and thus higher MF).

So, hopefully, the above puts all the commentary about what can or can't be done (positive statements), and what should or shouldn't be done (normative staments), in context.

 

[m61376]

Heidi-
As has been explained before, there are legal issues as to why Marriott has you acknowledge that timeshares are not investments. However, this doesn't negate the fact that most people consider that something they have purchased has inherent value and have the expectation that it will retain at least some value over time. Investments in the typical use of the word have the expectation at least of increasing in value over time and generating income; while educated purchasers know in general that is not the case (except in rare instances of either great buys or initial pre-construction purchases) with timeshares, that is different than the expectation that there will be at least partial retention of value. And, no, Marriott never promised that there would be resale value- but that is different from gutting the market so that they ensure there is no value.

And you are right- they can apply certain changes to resale purchasers as well as to direct purchasers. There are basic usage rights that are ensured in the documents that they cannot change, however.

I think where our opinions sharply diverge is that you seemingly agree, or are willing to accept, the fact that as long as Marriott can do it, that it isn't wrong to do and, well, if anyone gets hurt along the way they should have known better, and it is unrealistic for us to expect that Marriott will deal with us fairly. I staunchly maintain that Marriott has a moral obligation to ALL its owners who they have entered into a contractual relationship with to sustain the terms of that relationship, whether stipulated or implied. And, yes, that means continuing to treat resale owners as equals to developer purchasers in all aspects of product usage (except for the perk of being able to trade their units for points, but I consider that an alternative to product usage), because that's the understanding that resale owners bought the product under. And that was not just the unrealistic expectations of resale buyers- those were the parameters that Marriott transferred ownership under and those were the rules that Marirott conveyed.

The legal entanglements of whether or not their actions constitute an implied contract in the legal sense of the word are beyond me, but irregardless I have the realistic expectation that Marriott should treat its customer base fairly and equitably and not remove rights that were enjoyed at the time the purchase was consummated and, moreover, have been the normal and customary course of business over time. All owners pay ongoing MF's (which quickly approach and likely even exceed even the initial purchase prices over time) and all are entitled to expect to retain the rights that existed at the time of purchase. Any changes, if instituted, should affect all owners equally, since all current owners made their purchases based on a policy of equal ownership usage.

Just so I am not misinterpreted- this doesn't mean I think it is ok to shaft future resale buyers as long as current ones retain their rights, because I don't. But I recognize the distinction between removing rights that were enjoyed and that purchases were based upon and changing a program over the course of time. I may not like it, but concede that Marriott has the right to create a two tier usage system (which it would effectively be doing) as long as no one is penalized retroactively. I fear for everyone's resale values, and for the impact that this may have on the Marriott brand overall, if they decide to exercise this right and only convey partial usage rights to future resale purchasers.

As for the several posts about the points system being instituted only for exchanging- we, of course, don't know if or how it will eventually be implemented. There has been at least some consideration of a total points model, akin to the Asia Pacific program, for those owners that opt to buy into the program. Those who choose not to will continue to book weeks as before and trade in II as before, and proportionate inventory at the respective resorts will have to be retained in the current system to cover those owners' interests. The eventual program may, as suggested above, only be points based for exchange purposes (as an overlay system as suggested) but it may very well be a completely points based system, which will allow people to reserve days at a time at their home resort, elsewhere or any combination. Marriott will sell it as offering tremendous flexibility and hope that people don't perceive the inherent limitations and logistical problems which are likely to ensue.

Rolling out this program and gaining acceptance is going to require a tremendous public relations effort and, frankly, even if Marriott isn't motivated to do the right thing for the right thing's sake, I don't think at the outset they will be looking to antagonize any customer base and would not want to risk any negative publicity, making me reasonably certain that they will, in fact, treat ALL their current owners fairly and equitably (and that means allowing resale owners to retain their current equal usage rights). It is to their advantage as well, because it increases their potential enrollment base and costs them nothing, since penalizing past resale purchasers would be purely punitive and Marriott would have nothing to gain since the sales were already made.

 

[FlyerBobcat]

The Aruba thread has 1803 posts and has been going on for many months....I expect this thread will overtake that one within seven days!

Interesting..... maybe another deliberate act by Marriott

 

[indyhorizons]

This really won't give anyone much more than II currently offers, one may be able to do shorter stays (II now has short stay exchange), check in any day of the week (II now has this). This may be why II has come out with their new short stay exchange program. Though an internal program would offer more flexibility at your home resort.

The only thing in your post I would disagree with is the fact that Marriott controls developer units. These are ones that we see at II during flexchange (I suppose). If these units are moved to the internal program, that will have a negative impact on any owners who opt to stay with the current program. Marriott has the option to rent them, deposit into their own internal exchange program (MEP) or offer them during their own flexchange program. I don't see where II comes into this equation.

 

[indyhorizons]

What I find curious is that a lot of people feel that once a point system is instituted, Marriott trades through II will dry up and:
1) those trying to trade into a Marriott through II will find it difficult, if not impossible to do so, and
2) those who do deposit their Marriott units to II will somehow have achieved super trade status.

If that were the case, then I suspect that I should have an impossible situation trying to trade into a points based system, as an outsider. This, however, is not the case, as I have experienced it. As already mentioned, Hyatt is a points based system that trades through II. For the last 9 out of 10 years I have routinely traded into Hyatt's Key West resorts through II with what I would consider relatively little problems. This suggests to me that neither case #1 or #2 will come to pass.

So my guess is that the world will not end, if, or more probably, when Marriott implements a points system. My advice: step back; take a deep breath; and wait for the details to develop.

You reference the Hyatt points system, but isn't this the only system they offer? Marriott's program is proposed to be optional. I stand that #1 and #2 are both quite possible in this new scenario.

 

[bobcat]

You reference the Hyatt points system, but isn't this the only system they offer? Marriott's program is proposed to be optional. I stand that #1 and #2 are both quite possible in this new scenario.

As I see it, Dave tried to pass on some information and also said may not be correct. What this thread I see two sides. Direct purchase and resale owners. Now we are two kinds of owners. Just think, we should all stand together and show a united front. We own one of the top 10 Marriott resorts and it is 300 miles from home. We use it each year. If the rules change, just think how many weeks will no longer be up for trades as the owners will use them. Stand together and we are strong.

 

[indyhorizons]

As I see it, Dave tried to pass on some information and also said may not be correct. What this thread I see two sides. Direct purchase and resale owners. Now we are two kinds of owners. Just think, we should all stand together and show a united front. We own one of the top 10 Marriott resorts and it is 300 miles from home. We use it each year. If the rules change, just think how many weeks will no longer be up for trades as the owners will use them. Stand together and we are strong.

I think Perry's earlier suggestion, that we band together and create our own internal exchange program is an idean worth considering. I agree that there is obviously enough knowledge on this board to get one implemented, and if II is not going to do something "strong" to counter this (more than flexible stays) to lure us to stay with them, then why not?

 

[AceValenta]

WOW!! Has this thread balllooned!

Great insights by everyone....

 

[PerryM]

Try this out...

I think Perry's earlier suggestion, that we band together and create our own internal exchange program is an idean worth considering. I agree that there is obviously enough knowledge on this board to get one implemented, and if II is not going to do something "strong" to counter this (more than flexible stays) to lure us to stay with them, then why not?

RedWeek already has a 100% Points exchange system that costs peanuts to join and use. Their problem has always been a lack of marketing effort by Redweek.

I encourage all the folks reading this thread to go to Redweek's Exchange Page and put in a reservation they already have and find out how many RW Points you would get if you deposited.

I'm a member of RW but an not current in dues and I just submitted a week for appraisal - give it a try.

So ALL Marriott owners instantly have an alternative to Marriott's new reservation system if they choose. Building our own would require money, manpower, and a backing of a lot of Marriott owners - I don't really see that happening.

So spend 30 minutes and see what RW has to offer us Marriott owners and then we can let Marriott know that there are viable alternatives to any new system they might shove down our throats.

RW has been discussed for years now and I'd bet that the folks there would jump through hoops to get a bunch of Marriott owners using their system; that's worth pursuing and costs nothing.

I have no doubt they would make a part of their system "Marriott Owners Only".

P.S.

I can see a huge petition drive taking place where the word is spread from Marriott owner to owner that RedWeek is an alternative to any parasitic exchange system Marriott might infect us with that will result in loss of freedoms, decreases in resale values, and a damn caste system imposed upon us.

That's worth the effort.

Send that petition to Bill Marriott's Blog. There's a difference between an upset Marriott owner and 50,000 of them.

 

[indyhorizons]

RedWeek already has a 100% Points exchange system that costs peanuts to join and use. Their problem has always been a lack of marketing effort by Redweek.

I encourage all the folks reading this thread to go to Redweek's Exchange Page and put in a reservation they already have and find out how many RW Points you would get if you deposited.

I'm a member of RW but an not current in dues and I just submitted a week for appraisal - give it a try.

So ALL Marriott owners instantly have an alternative to Marriott's new reservation system if they choose. Building our own would require money, manpower, and a backing of a lot of Marriott owners - I don't really see that happening.

So spend 30 minutes and see what RW has to offer us Marriott owners and then we can let Marriott know that there are viable alternatives to any new system they might shove down our throats.

RW has been discussed for years now and I'd bet that the folks there would jump through hoops to get a bunch of Marriott owners using their system; that's worth pursuing and costs nothing.

I have no doubt they would make a part of their system "Marriott Owners Only".

P.S.

I can see a huge petition drive taking place where the word is spread from Marriott owner to owner that RedWeek is an alternative to any parasitic exchange system Marriott might infect us with that will result in loss of freedoms, decreases in resale values, and a damn caste system imposed upon us.

That's worth the effort.

Interesting. Quick question about RW, OT, but if I have a week that I have purchased with an AC that I can't use, could I exchange it on RW? Just curious.

 

[PerryM]

Interesting. Quick question about RW, OT, but if I have a week that I have purchased with an AC that I can't use, could I exchange it on RW? Just curious.

You have to have a reservation to a resort - doesn't matter how you got it. RW allows rentals (last time I checked) so you can deposit a week, and then anyone who snaps it up can rent it for cash.

But I'll be honest in that I've not tested this out; I'm sure others here have.

 

[rsackett]

One big change that will take place from a points system, Redweek, Marriott, whatever, is that high demand high quality resorts will get not just more trading power, but can turn that into more days of vacation.

The flip side is that lower demand weeks will not just have lower trading power, but less vacation time if they move up the quality/demand chain. Under the current system lower demand weeks will not be able to grab higher demand/quality weeks without down grading size and/or days of vacation.

The winners are those with great weeks.

Ray

 

[PerryM]

Fight back...

What the sales morons at Marriott don't realize is that we are not sheep - we have the internet and all the tools to take Marriott on in this matter. We have hundreds of millions of dollars at risk here and this is no small matter.

Giving us 2 years of constant threats and then almost 1 year to get ready is stupid on Marriott's part but that's how the salesreps think - threaten the owners into submission.

Well we don't have to take it on the chin without a good fight.

 

[m61376]

Send that petition to Bill Marriott's Blog. There's a difference between an upset Marriott owner and 50,000 of them.

Accomplishing that would be quite a herculean effort

Can individual posts be submitted to the blog? It would be interesting to see how/if there was a response to a polite, non-threatening non self-serving letter outlining many of our concerns.

 

[indyhorizons]

Accomplishing that would be quite a herculean effort

Can individual posts be submitted to the blog? It would be interesting to see how/if there was a response to a polite, non-threatening non self-serving letter outlining many of our concerns.

I'd say our #1 concern is the rumor mill that Marriott has refused to acknowledge or respond to. If we could get some confirmation from Marriott that some type of program is coming, then we could be informed buyers and/or owners. It's all the cloak and dagger that has everyone up in arms. Its the fact that allegedly they have people who can't keep their mouths shut for this alleged program that is going to be implemented and enough information is being leaked (again allegedly) to get a large number of owners up in arms. If we could get an answer to that question alone, I think that would eliminate 75% of the posts in this thread (and previous as well).

Of course details would be nice as well.

 

[Eric]

Perry


Maybe you can team up with Mark as you kind of think alike. Good luck with that

What the sales morons at Marriott don't realize is that we are not sheep - we have the internet and all the tools to take Marriott on in this matter. We have hundreds of millions of dollars at risk here and this is no small matter.

Giving us 2 years of constant threats and then almost 1 year to get ready is stupid on Marriott's part but that's how the salesreps think - threaten the owners into submission.

Well we don't have to take it on the chin without a good fight.

 

[thinze3]

Eric, what have you heard about the internal trading program?

 

[PerryM]

I own just one Gold Summit Watch so I really don't have a bone in this struggle.

Others, that have $100k+ invested should be worried and ban together.

But that's up to you guys - good luck.

 

[icydog]

I don't see how Marriott can make a point system that would punitively affect their owners whether they bought resale or not.

Someone gave the DVC model as an example. In the DVC system, no matter how you bought your points you are considered the same.

If Marriott doesn't grandfather resale owners into their system I think they would be open to legal action as this stipulation, that resale owners would not have an equal right to a new exchange system, was not part of the deed, whether purchased resale or not, when we bought.

 

[CMF]

I'm amazed at the amount of energy expended on this discussion. I can't keep up with the posts.

I would like to know [just curious] if anyone will make a move in advance of the expected and uncertain changes. Perhaps a poll is in order? The poll could be along the lines of:

What action will you take before Marriott changes the exchange/reservation system:

1. No change, I do not plan to sell my weeks in advance of an official announcement.
2. I am selling my weeks now.

Charles

 

[indyhorizons]

I'm amazed at the amount of energy expended on this discussion. I can't keep up with the posts.

I would like to know [just curious] if anyone will make a move in advance of the expected and uncertain changes. Perhaps a poll is in order? The poll could be along the lines of:

What action will you take before Marriott changes the exchange/reservation system:

1. No change, I do not plan to sell my weeks in advance of an official announcement.
2. I am selling my weeks now.

Charles

And you'll start the poll by responding....

 

[icydog]

Again, I cannot understand why everyone is running around exclaiming the sky is falling without any facts. If you sell your weeks preemptively that is your choice, although I believe it is the wrong one. Keep a clear head when rumors circulate and you will be fine. Wait for the final story and don't believe Marriott salespeople who have their own agenda in mind. Stay cool, real cool, as they sang in West Side story.