Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[timeos2]

Verbal simply doesn't count in real estate

Despite what you say verbal contracts are binding albeit harder to prove but nevertheless legally enforceable.

Real estate is a special case and nothing verbal is enforceable. It all has to be in writing or it doesn't exist. Thus the hundreds of pages of disclosure tied to even a "simple" timeshare purchase.

 

[steveg11]

Assuming that some villas would go unoccupied under the new system....Isn't the MF's of those units being paid, (points & weeks) whether they are occupied, or not?

Either way, Marriott needed to find another way to make up any additional cost involved with implementing this new system. To take away our ability to reserve a "like for like" exchange, or our own week, without purchasing more points appears to me to be nothing more than Marriott trying to force us to purchase more points.......This is a total disregard for Marriott's loyal customers, and flies in the face of every vacation dream, and theory that they have been selling for the past 25 years.

Marriott is betting that we will all purchase more points in order to reserve those like for like weeks, and the actual week, that we have already paid for........That's how I see it, at any rate.

And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.

 

[MikeZ]

And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.

Steveg11,

Good question. Here's a clean example.

Let's say, I want to go to Ko Olina, and an owner from Ko Olina wants to come to Waiohai. We both have OV, and like-for-like should get us OV. Here are the numbers:

I get 5075 for my Waiohai week, but have to pay 5725-6025 for most Ko Olina weeks

He/she gets 4975 points for the Ko Olina week (that I have to pay 5725-6025 to reserve) and has to pay 5875-6175 for most Waiohai weeks (which I received 5075 for)

Between those two, there could be almost 2000 points lost for owners in a transaction that used to be equal.

Now, there are some low season weeks that will not require as many points, but even in those cases, the person trading to Waiohai is short points, and I am relegated to get weeks I don't want to use without finding points elsewhere.

 

[tombo]

And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.

Simply see how many points they give you for your week and how many it costs to stay in it. Marriott gives you less points when you deposit your week than they charge other members to use it pocketing the extra points. Call it skimming or theft, Marriott is ripping owners off.

Before you say it, yes you can stay in your home resort during use year without using points, but if you want to bank your points this years so that you can have 2 units to bring family/friends next year, you won't have enough points to reserve exactly what you deposited. So to book an identical week to what you deposited at your home resort on a non use year you will have to borrow future points or buy more points.

Example to make it clearer. Your week/season costs 5000 points to reserve. Marriott give you 4650 points when you deposit your week. You don't have enough points to save them and book your home resort on a non use year. In addition since Marriott says your week/season is worth 5000 points, then any other resorts where a week/season has been assigned a cost of 5000 points are by Marriott's own standards like for like resorts because all cost 5000 points to reserve. With the 4650 points you get annually from Marriott you will never have enough points to trade like for like unless you buy more points or borrow from the future. With points Marriott has not only ended any chance you will ever trade up on an excahnge, they have guaranteed that you will never be able to trade like for like. If Marriott is going to charge 5000 points to members to stay in the week I deposit, then Marriott should give me 5000 points for my week, not 4650!

Read past posts here and on other threads for specifics. Many owners aren't getting enough points to trade for any week in their season at their home resort. Some people are not getting assigned enough points to be able to reserve ANY week in ANY season at their home resort. Some are only getting enough points to get the worst in season weeks, but NONE are getting enough points to reserve a prime in season week. In fact people with fixed weeks aren't getting enough points to reserve their own fixed week.

Welcome to Marriott's secret hidden points fees. Marriott brags that they don't have an exchange fee while they steal points making money (fees) by theft on every exchange. Under points they also claim no lock-off fees which is also a lie factoring in additional stolen points (skim). If you add the points totals required to reserve a studio and thepoints required to stay in a one bed room and compare the number of points required to stay in a 2 bed room same resort/season, the combined points required for the lock-offs are higher, so they are again charging a hidden fee. The owner deposits his 2 bed room week. marriott gives him less points than they will rent it for, they skimmed points. If a member rents a oned bed room side and another member rents a studio, marriott will charge the 2 a combined point total higher than reserving the whole 2 bed room. More points skimmed, more Marriott hidden fees.Welcome to the new crokked, skimming, theiving marriott.

Another troubling part of points is when you join points you give up your right to vote and instead give Marriott the right to vote your week. They won't let you even vote if you join points. Do you think they might be pursuing an agenda that NO owners would vote for? Why else would they want to remove owner's right to vote? What a deal this new system is (for Marriott that is). Take note Wastegate. With Marriott's new points program they are about to give you a run for your money as they now have potential to become the most hated timeshare developer.

 

[pacheco18]

Jim



Despite what you say verbal contracts are binding albeit harder to prove but nevertheless legally enforceable.

NOT for real estate. It is called the Statute of Frauds. Applicable in every state. NOTHING oral is binding in a real estate contract. If it's not in writing it does not exist. You could record it on a tape recorder and it would not be binding and enforceable. IN addition, the "merger clause" in the contract states clearly that oral representations are not binding.

I hate the misinformation but I really get concerned about the legal misinformation.

 

[ArtsieAng]

And how is it exactly that Marriott is taking away our ability to reserve a like for like exchange or our own week without purchasing more points? If they have done that, I would say, like you guys, shame on them. But their web site clearly states that we can continue to exchange our week for another week, and it clearly states that we can still reserve the week that we own at our home resort. So they have done what to us again? Oh, yeah, they have given us a fourth option to use points to get flexible vacations at resorts where we don't own, and get villa sizes and views that we don't own in a season that we don't own for whatever length of vacation is convenient to us. How horrible of them.

Yea, it all sounds wonderful.....The only thing they didn't give us, is the 7 day interval at the resort/season/view that we purchased, along with like for like exchanges!

Premier/Premier Plus owners have the ability to reserve ahead of everyone else, at the resort of their choosing. When I go to reserve my week, what will be left?

The old system is now gone. It has been replaced by the new point system.....The Marriott of the future is points, not weeks. Unfortunately, their new system left a large number of their Legacy Owners behind, with their ask/bid point ratio.

 

[tombo]

NOT for real estate. It is called the Statute of Frauds. Applicable in every state. NOTHING oral is binding in a real estate contract. If it's not in writing it does not exist. You could record it on a tape recorder and it would not be binding and enforceable. IN addition, the "merger clause" in the contract states clearly that oral representations are not binding.

I hate the misinformation but I really get concerned about the legal misinformation.

But if a developer is condoning the use of lies to sell real estate, that developer would be liable for fraud and misrepresentation which is ilegal. Marriott hires, trains,retains, and promotes sales people who use outright lies and misrepresentation to sell Marriott's product.The law does not protect and absolve Marriott of their responsibility to truthfully sell their product or to require a truthful sales presentation from it's employees or agents as long as the facts are in writing when the actual purcase is made. Even if it was legal to lie and misrepresent in order to make the sale, would you really trust a company and want to do business with an organization that you know uses lies to sell their product, but is legally compliant when you sign the contract? Not me. They showed their true colors during the sales presentation. I don't need to read the contract to find out what I really purchased because I am not buying from a company I already know is not ethically selling their product.

In Missouri in 2005 the attorney general sued and won damages against Festiva Resorts for using false and misleading sales tactics to sell timeshares. In addition Festiva employed a 3rd party sales force and claimed since they didn't actually employ them that they weren't liable. They were sued and paid restitution anyway.

http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/213804-time-share-company-agrees-to-pay-339000-settlement

http://ago.mo.gov/newsreleases/2005/112805b.htm

Excerpt:
"In the lawsuit, Nixon is asking the court to order Festiva to refund more than $200,000 to consumers who were misled into buying timeshares from the company. The lawsuit also seeks preliminary and permanent injunctions, fines of up to $1,000 per violation of the law and reimbursement to the state for its investigative and legal costs."

"Under the agreement, Festiva agreed to stop using false and misleading sales pitches to market and sell its time shares. "

Some people here believe that anything can be legally said or promised during the sales presentation with no repercussions for the developer if they have a contract at the closing and honor the contract. That is simply not true. If you use lies and misrepresentation to sell any product including real estate, it is illegal. The fact that what you actually get is in the contract does not allow them to say anything they want to make the sale.

 

[mickeypops]

The great $360,000,000 steal!

Someone correct my logic here, because it can't be right - can it????

Let's assume:

Average points value per week across the system = 4,000
Enrollment take up = 100,000 weeks
Marriot bid/sell skim = 10%
= Marriott profit of 40,000,000 points
@ $9 per point = $360,000,000

Has Marriott just created $360 million inventory for itself, without laying a single brick?

And in doing so, hasn't it stolen this from its owners?

I'm sure I can't be right - someone tell me I'm wrong, please??

 

[hipslo]

6500 & 13000 respectively.

This is specifically stated to be subject to change. Premiere is to be no more than 20% of owners, and premiere plus no more than 5% of owners. The 6500 and 13000 levels are stated to be "initial" levels based on estimated point ownership distributions.

Over time, the amount of points required to qualify for these levels are likely to increase.

 

[pacheco18]

But if a developer is condoning the use of lies to sell real estate, that developer would be liable for fraud and misrepresentation which is ilegal. .

You can sue for fraud -- and get monetary damages - but you CANNOT ENFORCE the verbal terms of a real estate contract through a lawsuit (Statute of Frauds). Two different things.

SO - if a rep promises you X and you can prove ALL the elements of fraud (detrimental reliance is key - "but for" the misrepresentation you would not have entered into the contract) and prove your damages, you might be able to get the damages, but the promise (X) will not be enforceable. Chances are the cost of suing will be greater than the recovery.

I don't want to be pedantic and put you all through law school but any verbal representation made by a rep that is not part of the writing signed is not part of your contract and never will be.

 

[RandR]

I guess I don't have any either because I'm looking at this as a great deal. Not perfect but great for me. I also believe it's a home run for resale owners.

Jim, why do you think it is such a great deal for resale owners? I own 1 week which means I have to pay $1495 to join this program. What do I gain? From what I can tell the only thing I gain (that is different from a direct buyer) is the ability to trade for MRP. But, I don't care about that at all. My wife travels a lot so I get plenty of them. Plus, I never thought it made sense, in my case, to trade for them anyway.

So let's see, I used to be able to lock off my 2bd, get two weeks in high season and now I would have to pay $1495 to do exactly, at best, what I was able to do before. But hey at least I can trade for MRP.

 

[timtax]

Before you say it, yes you can stay in your home resort during use year without using points, but if you want to bank your points this years so that you can have 2 units to bring family/friends next year, you won't have enough points to reserve exactly what you deposited. So to book an identical week to what you deposited at your home resort on a non use year you will have to borrow future points or buy more points.

Unless you book and deposit this year's week in II and trade for the week you want next year. Then you can add the year 2 reservation in front or behind the week you traded for. It can be done.

 

[hipslo]

My theory is different - I think at some resorts weeks get a jump on points at 13 months... Why do you think it is the opposite case?

I agree with this, depending on desired check in day.

 

[RandR]

This is specifically stated to be subject to change. Premiere is to be no more than 20% of owners, and premiere plus no more than 5% of owners. The 6500 and 13000 levels are stated to be "initial" levels based on estimated point ownership distributions.

Over time, the amount of points required to qualify for these levels are likely to increase.

And that is the word that worries me, "initial". Since they are just rolling this out for the first time all things are initial. Like anything else new, no matter what it is, there will be changes to smooth things out. So the information people use for their assumptions as to why they join might, likely will, change. I have seem here on TUG that Marriott subsidizes MF sometimes and later removes that subsidy and the MF rise. Right now the yearly $165/$199 is quite appetizing, even for me with one week. But after the "initial" period ending 12/31/10, it could easily go up to $295/$400. Still a good deal for some but it would eat up much of the savings of those with only one or two weeks.

I am just not sure that I want to trust Marriott to do the right thing.

 

[pacheco18]

Jim, why do you think it is such a great deal for resale owners? I own 1 week which means I have to pay $1495 to join this program. What do I gain? From what I can tell the only thing I gain (that is different from a direct buyer) is the ability to trade for MRP. But, I don't care about that at all. My wife travels a lot so I get plenty of them. Plus, I never thought it made sense, in my case, to trade for them anyway.

So let's see, I used to be able to lock off my 2bd, get two weeks in high season and now I would have to pay $1495 to do exactly, at best, what I was able to do before. But hey at least I can trade for MRP.

I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga! I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125. For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra. So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.

As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off. Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.

 

[tombo]

You can sue for fraud -- and get monetary damages - but you CANNOT ENFORCE the verbal terms of a real estate contract through a lawsuit (Statute of Frauds). Two different things.

SO - if a rep promises you X and you can prove ALL the elements of fraud (detrimental reliance is key - "but for" the misrepresentation you would not have entered into the contract) and prove your damages, you might be able to get the damages, but the promise (X) will not be enforceable. Chances are the cost of suing will be greater than the recovery.

I don't want to be pedantic and put you all through law school but any verbal representation made by a rep that is not part of the writing signed is not part of your contract and never will be.

You are a lawyer so please don't be offended, but just because a company might legally get away with misrepresenting what they are selling by using a legally binding contract when the sale is made, that doesn't make it RIGHT. I can't believe so many say well they do lie often in the sales presentations, but I still think Marriott is a reputable company and I have no problem buying retail directly from them. How can anyone condone the use of lies and misrepresentation by Marriott to sell their product and then say but it's OK because you do find out what you REALLY legally get if you sort through the lengthy legal contract AFTER you buy (they won't give you a blank contract to take home and study because I tried). There are a lot of things that are legal that aren't moral or right, and the way Marriott (and most timeshare developers) markets their products might be legal, but it isn't moral or right IMO.

 

[pacheco18]

You are a lawyer so please don't be offended, but just because a company might legally get away with misrepresenting what they are selling by using a legally binding contract when the sale is made, that doesn't make it RIGHT. I can't believe so many say well they do lie often in the sales presentations, but I still think Marriott is a reputable company and I have no problem buying retail directly from them. How can anyone condone the use of lies and misrepresentation by Marriott to sell their product and then say but it's OK because you do find out what you REALLY legally get if you sort through the lengthy legal contract AFTER you buy (they won't give you a blank contract to take home and study because I tried). There are a lot of things that are legal that aren't moral or right, and the way Marriott (and most timeshare developers) markets their products might be legal, but it isn't moral or right IMO.

I am not offended. Legality and morality are two different things!
I certainly don't condone misrepresentation, but I also think buyers should be smart enough and careful enough when spending thousands of dollars to read the contract. When it says clearly, "oral representations are not binding," you can't disregard just because you like what you heard.

 

[tombo]

I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga! I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125. For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra. So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.

As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off. Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.

The cost of your resale has been diminished far below $7500 thanks to Marriott. If you sell your week that you convert to points take the $1495 conversion fee right off of the top or what you get resale because it is an extortion fee. Either you pay it to try and get good resale prices or you don't pay it and you reduce the value of your week for many resale buyers. Then in the new points rules it specifically says that any buyer has to pay at least $2000 to Marriott to retain the points rights reducing your resale value by another $2000. So $7500 minus $3495 leaves you $4005. In addition some things you might legally interpret say that resale buyers will only be able to use their points at 60 days out. If that is correct resale value lowered even more. In addition to get points to transfer from what I have read you must use an approved resale broker. You will have to pay them commission. Their goes more money out of your pocket. By the time you get through jumping through all of the new hoops Marriott inserted into the points program you might have to pay the approved resale broker to sell your week for you. This program will not increase resale values, this program was designed to hurt resale values and will probably almost kill resale values.

 

[Powerguy]

Then in the new poitns rules it specifically says that any buyer has to pay at least $2000 to Marriott to retain the points rights reducing your resale value by another $2000.

In addition some things you might legally interpret say that resale buyers will only be able to use their points at 60 days out.

Where does it specifically say these two statements? I have not seen these items. It states that resale buyers after June 20 ,2010 cannot enroll in the points program.

 

[pacheco18]

The cost of your resale has been diminished far below $7500 thanks to Marriott. If you sell your week that you convert to points, it specifically says that any buyer has to pay at least $2000 to Marriott to retain the points rights reducing your resale value by $2000. In addition some things you might legally interpret say that resale buyers will only be able to use their points at 60 days out. If that is correct resale value lowered even more. In addition to get points to transfer from what I have read you must use an approved resale broker. You will have to pay them commission. Their goes more money out of your pocket. By the time you get through jumping through all of the new hoops Marriott inserted into the points program you might have to pay the approved resale broker to sell your week for you. This program will not increase resale values, this program was designed to hurt and will almost kill resale values.

Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth the same.

Additionally, many of us never plan to sell - timeshares are not and were never intended to be a real estate investment we should expect to appreciate. Those who bought with profit in mind were at best misinformed. I love my deeded weeks (I bought where I want to go and to have the flexibility to trade for Rewards Points) and plan to include them in my will - so reselling is not something I care about. The resale week I bought to use - we go to Palm Desert every year - so trading for Rewards points was not an issue.

I am not condoning the program - I will not be joining - just pointing out the huge bonus for resale buyers.

 

[rsackett]

Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth the same....

I have news for you; your developer purchase was always worth the same as a resale unit when you sell it! That is what all those resale units are. Someone bought them from the developer and sold them resale. You lost all that money the second you went past your rescind period.

What ever rights a resale buyer has does not affect your usage what-so-ever! The more rights are passed on to a resale buyer the more residual value you have in your developer unit. If you ever sell you are selling a resale unit.

Ray

 

[pacheco18]

I have news for you; your developer purchase was always worth the same as a resale unit when you sell it! That is what all those resale units are. Someone bought them from the developer and sold them resale. You lost all that money the second you went past your rescind period.

What ever rights a resale buyer has does not affect your usage what-so-ever! The more rights are passed on to a resale buyer the more residual value you have in your developer unit. If you ever sell you are selling a resale unit.

Ray

Understood, but now the two units have the same benefits and are worth the same to me as an owner. If I join the points system they are indistinguishable in their benefits.

If I sold, both have diminished value since neither can join the points program. My "loss" on the resale unit is much less.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Yes - but if I sell I am losing far more (tens of thousands more) on the developer unit I bought - the resale unit and the developer unit are now worth the same.

Additionally, many of us never plan to sell - timeshares are not and were never intended to be a real estate investment we should expect to appreciate. Those who bought with profit in mind were at best misinformed. I love my deeded weeks (I bought where I want to go and to have the flexibility to trade for Rewards Points) and plan to include them in my will - so reselling is not something I care about. The resale week I bought to use - we go to Palm Desert every year - so trading for Rewards points was not an issue.

I am not condoning the program - I will not be joining - just pointing out the huge bonus for resale buyers.

.


I think there are a lot more resale buyers out there than anyone has been led to believe, and I am guessing Marriott wants those many units out there to join the program and make it work. Hence the enticement fee of $1,495 to those resale buyers...

 

[RandR]

I think for those who bought resale this is a ganga! I bought one Shadow Ridge from developer for 24000 and one resale for 6125. For the 1495 (assuming I just joined with the 1 unit) I convert the resale unit into something that has ALL the value for which Legacy owners paid TENS of thousands extra. So that brings the "cost" of my resale up to around $7500 and I can still use it, trade it through II or exchange for Rewards Points.

As an owner of 2 developer units I am very pissed off. Marriott is screwing me over and completely disregarding my past loyalty to them.

From what I can tell, the only thing that my $1495 buys me to make me on even footing with direct buyers is the ability to trade for MRP. This has absolutely no value to me at all. So how am I getting such a great deal as a resale buyer?

As for you being pissed off about your developer bought units....that I agree with. I am surprised that more direct buyers aren't coming unglued about that. Someone probably spent $20,000 - $25,000 or more to buy the same unit I got at GV for under $7000. (And could have been bought before June 20 for much less than that.) Now if I wanted I could just pay $1495 and all would be forgiven.

 

[rsackett]

....I guess I don't have any either because I'm looking at this as a great deal. Not perfect but great for me. I also believe it's a home run for resale owners.

Not for this one! I have two resale weeks in two bedroom units. Both are in the highest season at their resorts. The total points I would receive is 3525. This results in a maintenance fee per point of $0.59. I am sure that there are MANY off season resort owners that are as bad off as or worse than I am. I have no intention to join the club. I will save my money, and use my deeded weeks as I have in the past.

Ray