Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[Dave M]

Right now I have 2 resorts that I use the 13 month rule to reserve. If I go to points (unlikely) I would only be able to reserve 12 months out. Does that apply to use of my home resort if I am a "points" owner or will I still get 13 months out ???

Whether or not you join the points system, you will still have all of the use options that are available to you now. Thus, you can still choose to reserve two consecutive or concurrent weeks for a particular year at 13 months. Or, if you join points, you can elect points for that year and be subject to the points rules.

 

[gailo]

Thanks Dave,
Have you answered the what do you think question?

 

[DanCali]

No I don't, and neither will the majority

Lower fee for my current usage pattern:

Current - II - $89
lockoff - $75
2 internal trades - $218
Total = $382

System fee = $165





Yes. It is clearly stated in the disclosure document that Marriott or the owner can cancel the contract in every year at their discretion.

Skimming 7% = about $100

$1500 enrollment fee for resale owner has an oportunity cost of about 5% = $75 a year.

So overall you don't save that much...

 

[SueDonJ]

Did you try Firefox? I had no problem there but couldn't get through with Safari.

Sue,

I just tried Firefox on my Mac and that appears to be the problem. Safari just won't allow the "enroll now" button. Also, they updated my point values to 4200 for SurfWatch 2 BD Plat OS. Good luck!

Well I broke down and installed Firefox, just didn't have any more patience left to wait for some other written confirmation. My 25-yo son couldn't have rolled his eyes any further to the heavens when I asked him eighteen different ways if d/l-ing Firefox would affect Safari somehow. "Just do it, Mom, your world won't end, I promise." He was right. It looks like the difference is that Safari couldn't load the security notice that popped up on Firefox before I could access the point value page. (Hopefully this might help other Safari users, otherwise I've wasted about 6.3 zillion megabytes of TUG space on something that doesn't affect anybody else.)

The values that I got from the telephone rep today are correct. That's good. And I'm glad that you've seen a correction, ws, although for both our sakes I would have preferred that my SW values were incorrect and yours were not. That's bad for you, and I'm sorry if asking the rep today to triple-check 3BR weeks against 2BR weeks was what caused the correction. (I don't think so, though, she mentioned that they had other reports of SW "issues.") Dean, are you also seeing a correction in what you thought might be incorrect? {edited to add} Nevermind Dean, I see your new post #824.

So it's on to the next thing to obsess over before making a decision ...

 

[wsrobinson]

I am a little concerned about the fact that if you join you get a new interval number and become part of the corporate account. I just wonder what kind of control they will end up with and will normal deposits be treated differently in the corporate account vs the old interval account we all have. It could be that deposits made with the new numbers will end up in a pool for points owners and deposits made with the old interval accounts will not. Will these deposits have the same value in Interval when exchanging.

I was just told by a VOA that if you are looking to exchange Marriott to Marriott it won't go to II. The exchange will be handled (based on availability) in house by Marriott's new internal exchange system.

 

[wsrobinson]

They have corrected my Surfwatch points as well down to the level I suspected would be the case. Also, check your points calculations carefully if you are looking on the online enrollment options as while it calculates my total correctly which includes an EOY even week, it gives me an extra 500 for 2011 when the EOY is not counted.

Dean,

They revised mine downward as well. It was nice being point rich for a day

 

[wsrobinson]

Is 33 to 1 a standard conversion rate to Marriott Reward Points? If so, that could a benefit or a detriment of enrolling.

Our unit would get 110,000 today but only 87,450 using a 33:1 ratio.

Perhaps, but you can only exchange on a varying basis. Regular program members may exchange up to 50 pct of their vacation points, premier members can do 65 pct and premierplus members can do 75 pct.

 

[ondeadlin]

One thing is clear. The points system is going to be the future. At least in the near term 1-5 years. I am not willing to gamble that it will fail when the ante is so cheap compared to my investment.

When I read this my first thought was, "Are we still talking about timeshares?" I mean ... it seems so ominous ... "THE FUTURE!!!"

That said, if you bought developer and the money is chump change to you, I can understand your position. You view it as essentially hedging a bet for a relatively low cost. Makes sense. But you're selling this system so hard that it's hard not to wonder why. The hyperbole with "the future" etc. seems a bit much. If the worst thing that happens to someone is that they're shut out of the Marriott points system, I think most folks will be just fine, lol.

There are undoubtedly people this system will work for. There always are.

But for the average Marriott owner, it's going to devalue their week's resale value even further, potentially gut the II weeks system, and - should theyjoin the system - they're going to need to buy more points. Win, win, win Marriott, lose, lose, lose owners.

I can see how it works for you and a few others.

But I think any neutral evaluation has to conclude it also hurts the majority of owners in a variety of ways. It's not a simple question of "Pay this fee, because it's not that expensive, and what do you have to lose?" It's more like, "If you don't pay this fee, you may find that week you paid $40,000 for significantly devalued ... and, yes, you'll still get your annual use at your home resort, enjoy that, but all those other things we promised you in the sales pitch? Yeah, we're devaluing those big-time. Marriott resale program? Already gone. Marriott rental program? Gone too if you join points. II trades? Potentially gutted. But don't worry, trust us, if you give us more money, it'll all be just fine ...

Oh, except don't expect to be able to sell this benefit we're selling you. Only we get to do that.

And, of course, we can change the rules at any time.

I'm surprised you can't see the "gun to your head" element to all that and understand why it (at least) annoys people. I'm not so sure it's the future. I think there's a decent chance it flops and they're back in six months with much lower prices and much bigger incentives. They essentially harvest the folks who think the system and terms are great, and then offer a better deal to move the rest of the folks. Two words for you: Marco Island. The prima facie case of sales staff overpricing. How would you like to have been an original purchaser at that joint before they cut the prices? Oh boy.

 

[Dean]

Well I broke down and installed Firefox, just didn't have any more patience left to wait for some other written confirmation. My 25-yo son couldn't have rolled his eyes any further to the heavens when I asked him eighteen different ways if d/l-ing Firefox would affect Safari somehow. "Just do it, Mom, your world won't end, I promise." He was right. It looks like the difference is that Safari couldn't load the security notice that popped up on Firefox before I could access the point value page. (Hopefully this might help other Safari users, otherwise I've wasted about 6.3 zillion megabytes of TUG space on something that doesn't affect anybody else.)

The values that I got from the telephone rep today are correct. That's good. And I'm glad that you've seen a correction, ws, although for both our sakes I would have preferred that my SW values were incorrect and yours were not. That's bad for you, and I'm sorry if asking the rep today to triple-check 3BR weeks against 2BR weeks was what caused the correction. (I don't think so, though, she mentioned that they had other reports of SW "issues.") Dean, are you also seeing a correction in what you thought might be incorrect?

So it's on to the next thing to obsess over before making a decision ...

Iown a GV and OV 2 BR and the numbers are as I expected them to be. I don't have the numbers available right now but the GV was less than my GO OS and the O Vista was in between the OF and OS GO numbers. I'm sure the GV, OS and OF numbers for those 3 resorts will be the same on both ends, not enough difference between them to justify making them different. The O Vista is less than OF because it's further back. You'll like using Firefox for the MVCI site as well since it doesn't have the issues with the security info there either and you won't have the problem where Safari doesn't load the tabed info like the owner related info. IF you use RCI, you'll see that FF works better there as well, esp for the Directory. FF also works better with the more advanced webmail products that I've seen.

 

[siberiavol]

Again, what is the light? I agree the system sucks, but it is going to be the system going forward. You can join for free/low cost and keep your options open. If you don't join what will happen if II trades dry up? What if Marriott changes the point totals to give people MORE points because they find they made a mistake in the demand? If you opted out will you be able to get back in?

Unless you want to make a statement that Marriott is bad then I don't see the value in closing out your options when no one knows what will happen in the next few years.

I think there are plenty of people who don't see any value to them in the new program. They have reasoned their way to a decision. There are clearly some that are very mad at Marriott. I wonder if all of it is because of this program. A lot of people bought at very high prices and are sitting on big losses and feels like Marriott is getting them again. That probably makes it difficult not to make a statement in some form that 'Marriott is bad" even though they are not changing anything the best I can tell for those that don't join.

I don't think the new program is better for most people but that doesn't make Marriott into an Enron or their people into Bernie Madoffs. Virtually every company I know of in the travel business have given their clients less rather than more for years. Nobody I know is happy about it but it is the current reality

 

[gmarine]

When you join you give up your right to vote with your resorts HOA. Why would Marriott include this in the terms ?

Before anyone considers joining, you should seriously consider why Marriott wants to restrict your RIGHT to vote with your HOA.

 

[billymach4]

Marriott Degradation Club!

Proclamation!

I have coined the term

Marriott Degradation Club! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Apple has the Ipad, We have the Degradation Club. Then there is WASTEGATE!

That's what happens when you smoke the Marriottjuana!

 

[myip]

If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club. Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts. The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.

 

[saturn28]

If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club. Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts. The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.

There are a lot of weeks resorts and it will be a long time before points only resorts out number them. But all new resorts will be points only and you will not be able to do weeks exchanges through II to trade into them. The only way to trade into them will be through the points system.

 

[ondeadlin]

If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club. Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts. The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.

Absolutely. This is the inevitable outcome. It's just a matter of when the remaining II options for weeks Marriott owners are reduced to nothing but Branson, May and October weeks in Colorado and Utah and July and August in Phoenix and Florida.

The threat is obvious and real and intended to force you to convert.

 

[NJDave]

I was just told by a VOA that if you are looking to exchange Marriott to Marriott it won't go to II. The exchange will be handled (based on availability) in house by Marriott's new internal exchange system.

This adds more uncertainty. Any thoughts? Will Marriott allow better trades internally or exclude trading up so the members have to use points after they can't get their trade? How would the comparable trade criteria be applied? Would it be the same as Interval's criteria?

 

[winger]

You can roll an ever increasing amount from year to year and not bump into the one year restriction. Or simply plan to use lower value weeks/smaller units one year so you'll have 1000 or so "leftover" to roll to the next year. Then you have the 6000 needed. It works very well with a little planning.

The question then becomes whether each year's pt allotment are 'flagged' in such a way, any given year's allotment canNOT be extended for more than one year. This requires essentially buckets for each year's pt allotment, and knowing the rules behind when a member reserves resort time (or any point use), which bucket the points are pulled from first.

In the DRI point system, the document language originally made it seem that any given year's pts can only be extended I think for one (or two?) years, but upon using the system, the only limit seems to be that a member not be allowed to carry x times his annual pt allotment to the next year.

I hope the new Marriott system works like DRI's

 

[BocaBum99]

If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club. Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts. The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.

It might take 100 years or more for that scenario to play out.

There are tons of resorts to exchange to in II for Marriotts. What will be missed is the developer inventory that they have deposited for years. Not sure what will happen to their excess inventory now in the new program since there is no discount window and no concept of bonus time. This was a huge miss by the Marriott product managers. Not as bad as points granted being less than points required to book. That has to be one of the all time worst product decisions in all of timesharing.

 

[m61376]

Well I just enrolled my two EOY in the points program. I have one at Aruba Surf Club 2BR Gold OS that is worth 3075 and honestly we plan to use that one every year so I don't really care about it being enrolled but since it cost the same for me to enroll one or both I figured what the heck.

I did confirm St Kitts IS part of this point enrollment and holy smokes my EOY 2 BR Gold OS is worth 4550. We bought it as a trader and I am thrilled with that amount of points in my use year. I can even stay at Aruba Surf Club (our favorite) for a week and have 1000 points left over. For that alone it was a no brainer.

Is that correct- since it appears that it only "costs" 3,325 points to book a 2BR Gold OS room there? Am I reading something wrong?

 

[m61376]

Well I just enrolled my two EOY in the points program. I have one at Aruba Surf Club 2BR Gold OS that is worth 3075 and honestly we plan to use that one every year so I don't really care about it being enrolled but since it cost the same for me to enroll one or both I figured what the heck.


Just Curious: My "every year" Aruba Surf Club Gold OV is also worth 3075 points. Can this be a mistake that your EOY is worth the same as my EY and the only difference is the OS vs. OV?

According to the points chart - the OS and OV units are given the same value. Something doesn't seem right.

I noticed that too, and was unable to get any sort of explanation as to how OS weeks, which cost several thousand more than OV weeks, and which rent for more money from Marriott, are valuated identically.

 

[timeos2]

The same old "problems" - most really aren't

But for the average Marriott owner, it's going to devalue their week's resale value even further, potentially gut the II weeks system, and - should theyjoin the system - they're going to need to buy more points. Win, win, win Marriott, lose, lose, lose owners.

The devaluation is going to happen regardless of the new system or not. Once the developer decides to trash rather than support resales the trend is irreversible. Look at Wyndham or DRI among many others for proof of that.

Need to buy more? Thats what was(is) often said about Wyndham yet in over 15 years of ownership we looked and decided what the amount we needed would be in 1995. Bought it cheap resale & figured we'd get more when needed. 2010 and after all that time pooling, banking, borrowing and renting points in our account we have NEVER bought more nor needed to. We have never paid a housekeeping fee I can recall. And we have stayed at every resort we requested in the unit size we wanted on the dates we needed - mostly the holidays/no school like everybody else. The claims of doom gloom and ever increasing points needs just simply never materialized. But the fancy new resorts and locations did and we stayed at nearly all of them with our "cheap, old points - nonVIP!

And, of course, we can change the rules at any time.

Same in all three of our systems. In nearly two decades I can count on one hand the changes and most had zero impact on us. So minor as to be meaningless.

Overall we have found points based systems, if priced reasonably to join, a great value. And the new Marriott seems to mirror most of the others. It's worth looking closely at if you are a Marriott owner. But do look closely.

 

[timeos2]

The question then becomes whether each year's pt allotment are 'flagged' in such a way, any given year's allotment canNOT be extended for more than one year. This requires essentially buckets for each year's pt allotment, and knowing the rules behind when a member reserves resort time (or any point use), which bucket the points are pulled from first.

In the DRI point system, the document language originally made it seem that any given year's pts can only be extended I think for one (or two?) years, but upon using the system, the only limit seems to be that a member not be allowed to carry x times his annual pt allotment to the next year.

I hope the new Marriott system works like DRI's

I'll bet it does. And that means you could roll as much as 100% of your annual points over. That should be enough for most people!

 

[DanaTom]

I noticed that too, and was unable to get any sort of explanation as to how OS weeks, which cost several thousand more than OV weeks, and which rent for more money from Marriott, are valuated identically.

I think it's been coined here previously, Tuggers will find the flaws and take advantage. When someone finds flaws though... just email me, don't tell eveyone else.

 

[DanaTom]

If all the new resort or sales are now in points, don't you have to join the club. Eventually, there won't be much inventory in II for exchanges except for old resorts. The price of resale in Marriott should drop like Starwood.

I think you will note that Starwood's MFs are very high, and that has caused values to drop noticeably... here at MVC though, they just reduced your normal week tstay o five or six days (as that's all the points you will have) instead of raising MFs.

 

[m61376]

I have not, and don't plan to, go out & try to add up and average the values at the resorts to attempt to verify what Marriott did. There are enough (for me) cases previously posted here where an owner has done the math and is satisfied that at that one resort it is in balance - I've seen at least a dozen examples - so I'll have a bit of faith that in fact they did the math, double checked it and arrived at the proper figures. If in fact they are attempting to skim (or whatever you care to all it) then the whole thing qualifies as a scam and deserves to crash and burn. Whatever you think of Marriott that isn't something I'd expect from them. I do believe they are an ethical organization, looking to make money of course, but not by intentionally cheating people.

So I will place my trust in the fact that the base points, the assignment to the seasons and values are in fact the best possible and do represent what Marriott feels are the proper values. The remainder of the system has to stand on it's own merits and things may not be as rosy there. I plan to summarize my overall opinion soon simply as my personal take on the final product revealed.

You certainly are free to have blind faith that Marriott has fairly assigned valuations- but there are multiple examples where people have indisputably illustrated that you are, in fact, mistaken. You cannot reasonably argue that "skimming" or whatever you want to call it is occurring when fixed week owners are assigned values less than their corresponding week costs to book, nor can you argue that points have been assigned equitably when an owner cannot book a single week in their owned season using the points allocated.

There may be some resorts where the allocations were more reasonable and equitable, but that does not negate the FACT that Marriott has created a program where in many cases they profit from each and every point deposit, since the person relinquishing the points would have to pay significantly more to purchase the identical item they are depositing.

I do agree that I am surprised. I would have expected Marriott to act in a more ethical fashion. Like you, I expected more of them. Unlike you, I am willing to recognize that either they carelessly set point values, at least in some cases, or they are intentionally cheating people. Regrettably, I feel this skimming is actually a surcharge of 7-20%, masked as an "enhancement" to ownership.

The real money-maker for Marriott isn't the fee to join, nor the $169 or 199 club fee- it is the surcharge that anyone converting to points is forced to pay for the "wonderful enhancement" to their ownership!