Kobe Bryant

[pedro47]

Good grief...just imagine what it will be like when Amazon starts employing drones to fly all over delivering packages! (Trying to insert just a bit of humor into a sad topic...this will be my last posting: count every day as a blessing, folks!)

This thread is a about Kobe Bryant, Please left him and the eight (8) others R.I.P.

 

[SNA27]

So, is it too early to ask questions? Must the post-mortem wait until after 'mourning'?

1. Who gave the special approval to override safety rules? I bet he/she is in hiding right now.
2. And who demanded it?
3. Did the pilot feel coerced by the Celebrity to suspend his judgment and disregard safety and common sense?
4. Did the pilot approve the extra passenger? Did he do so under 'celebrity' duress?

Just watch the lawsuits fly after the 'mourning' is over and reality strikes.

 

[Grammarhero]

So, is it too early to ask questions? Must the post-mortem wait until after 'mourning'?

1. Who gave the special approval to override safety rules? I bet he/she is in hiding right now.
2. And who demanded it?
3. Did the pilot feel coerced by the Celebrity to suspend his judgment and disregard safety and common sense?
4. Did the pilot approve the extra passenger? Did he do so under 'celebrity' duress?

Just watch the lawsuits fly after the 'mourning' is over and reality strikes.

There's probably at least $5.0 million in insurance. It's not enough to pay the families of the non-celebs. A middle-aged, non-celeb usually gets $1.0 million in insurance payouts in wrongful death lawsuits.

 

[Grammarhero]

Do helicopters have black boxes?

 

[pedro47]

His 13 year old daughter, her teammate and the parent of the team mate and the pilot.

Do helicopters have black boxes?

The answer is Yes.

 

[Rolltydr]

I agree that Kobe Bryant leaves a great legacy on and off the court. I am sorry to hear that folks are debating something that was settled out of court and resulted in Kobe apologizing. I am female, and in my day when I was pretty, I had a few "Me Too" moments (not anything I considered physical assault, mind you... but still, it was demoralizing). I was young and quit my good-paying job to soon get another. (It was the movie industry, and there was a culture called the "casting couch"...and I never laid there.)

I don't judge Kobe's accuser, or any current or former "MeToo" activists; frankly, it's a "free country", and folks are free to speak their minds (more or less, depending on rules and regs of online forums...but I digress.) At risk of getting deleted or helping this thread/topic to go downhill, which is not my intent...I see all sides on this issue. I wasn't in that hotel room years ago. I am tall and dated basketball players and love the game (and baseball too). I loved watching Kobe Bryant play.

I do not think folks should disrespect this man's legacy when he's not even dead 24 hours (well, maybe it is a full day now). It just makes me very sad, in these divisive times, that we cannot find just a bit of unity in saluting the legacy of a great sports figure who inspired so many kids...and adults. I also mourn his daughter's untimely death along with their friends and colleagues on that helicopter. As Alicia Keys said last night on the Grammys, "here we are gathered in the house that Kobe built". She was referring to the Staples Center! Think about that, everyone, the improvements that Kobe Bryant brought to the Lakers and L.A. and the bigger picture. But if you don't like Alicia Keys, maybe you might disagree even on that. (Read her bio, she's an inspiring celebrity who gives lots of $ to charities, has her own charity, etc...she GIVES BACK and we all should, if we have fame, $ or privilege). I will change the subject to the following, my original reason for my posting here again...until I saw the hotel incident being debated (and yes, this hotel incident "debate" is also being hashed out on "social" and mainstream media)...anyway, here's what may have led to the crash in L.A.:

HELICOPTER DEATHS...yet again! Carol C wonders...Where have I heard that before? Maybe I should have posted this breaking news in the Hawaii helicopter crash thread somewhere on TUG. NYT has this headline in breaking news:

​

BREAKING NEWS

The helicopter carrying Kobe Bryant and eight others got special approval to fly even though the foggy weather conditions were below usual standards.

Very thoughtful post, @CarolC. You didn’t drag it down at all.

I’d like to add a few more thoughts to my post above that may help explain why I feel we need to let people grieve instead of attacking a person we don’t really even know.

I was never a Kobe fan. I grew up a Boston Celtics fan in the 60’s and 70’s. Russell’s Celtics vs. Wilt’s Lakers. Then, it was the Larry Bird Celtics vs. Magic/Kareem Lakers through the 80’s and early 90’s. Of course, since I loved the Celtics, I had to hate the Lakers. But, as I got older, I did gain a grudging respect for Magic and Kareem for their basketball skills, but even more-so, for who they were off the court. Kareem fought for equality for all people. Magic brought great attention to the HIV/AIDS problem and helped raise millions of dollars for research that helped identify treatments. Today, I would rate Kareem the best center in NBA history and Magic one of the top 2 guards.

When Kobe came along, there had been a changing of the guard and my Celtics weren’t competing for championships any longer so my interest in the NBA waned. Then, when he was accused of sexual assault, I decided he was a bad guy and I never gave him another chance. I went back to hating the Lakers and basically ignoring the 5 championships they won during Kobe’s reign.

A couple of years ago, after he had retired, Kobe spent an evening with the Alabama football team. I had never heard him speak and didn’t really know, or care, what he was doing after retirement. But, Nick Saban invites several motivational speakers to fall camp prior to football season every year. Some are athletes, some not. Many have had very public troubles, some not. All of them have overcome some type of adversity in their life and they talk to the football team about that and what made them successful. Kobe and Saban sat on stage and just talked, asking and answering each other’s questions. The looks on the kids faces were priceless. Kobe had their rapt attention! He was a hero, the GOAT, for many of them. And here he was, talking to them, sharing with them, how to be the best they could be. He didn’t talk about winning championships. He talked about doing what it takes to be successful. He told them you have to work hard, every day, every practice, every drill, every single play. That is your focus. The work, the process, not the results. Those will take care of themselves. It was something that Coach Saban says all the time but the players probably get tired of hearing. But on that night, they were hearing it from the GOAT and you could tell it sunk in like never before. I changed my opinion of Kobe a little after seeing that but still mostly ignored him.

Then, I was sitting in line at a fast food restaurant yesterday waiting to give my order and scrolling through Twitter when I saw the first post about his death. It shocked me. Just 41 years old. It wasn’t right. Then, a couple of hours later, we find out about his daughter, Gianna, just 13 years old. Then, 9 people on board. No survivors. Two of Gigi’s teammates. Another dad. A mom. It just got worse.

My perspective on death changed in 1991 when I lost my 18 year old son in an automobile accident. After that, I realized everyone is a child and everyone has parents and family that love them despite whatever issues they may have. I have no idea what kind of person Kobe Bryant really was and I doubt anyone on this forum does. I do know he has a wife and three surviving daughters that love him and Gigi more than anything else and they are hurting. He has millions of fans that love him for the enjoyment he gave to them over the years and they are hurting.

If you didn’t like him, that’s ok. As I said above, I was never a fan. But, what is the point of trying to tear him down and berate him now? Does it make you feel better? Are you looking for a fight with someone who is grieving, or at the very least is sad about his death? Before you hit the Enter key on one of those posts, ask yourself, is this a kind and caring post that will help make a sad, grieving person feel better? If you can’t answer yes to that question, then ask yourself, what am I doing?


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[Grammarhero]

Very thoughtful post, @CarolC. You didn’t drag it down at all.

I’d like to add a few more thoughts to my post above that may help explain why I feel we need to let people grieve instead of attacking a person we don’t really even know.

I was never a Kobe fan. I grew up a Boston Celtics fan in the 60’s and 70’s. Russell’s Celtics vs. Wilt’s Lakers. Then, it was the Larry Bird Celtics vs. Magic/Kareem Lakers through the 80’s and early 90’s. Of course, since I loved the Celtics, I had to hate the Lakers. But, as I got older, I did gain a grudging respect for Magic and Kareem for their basketball skills, but even more-so, for who they were off the court. Kareem fought for equality for all people. Magic brought great attention to the HIV/AIDS problem and helped raise millions of dollars for research that helped identify treatments. Today, I would rate Kareem the best center in NBA history and Magic one of the top 2 guards.

When Kobe came along, there had been a changing of the guard and my Celtics weren’t competing for championships any longer so my interest in the NBA waned. Then, when he was accused of sexual assault, I decided he was a bad guy and I never gave him another chance. I went back to hating the Lakers and basically ignoring the 5 championships they won during Kobe’s reign.

A couple of years ago, after he had retired, Kobe spent an evening with the Alabama football team. I had never heard him speak and didn’t really know, or care, what he was doing after retirement. But, Nick Saban invites several motivational speakers to fall camp prior to football season every year. Some are athletes, some not. Many have had very public troubles, some not. All of them have overcome some type of adversity in their life and they talk to the football team about that and what made them successful. Kobe and Saban sat on stage and just talked, asking and answering each other’s questions. The looks on the kids faces were priceless. Kobe had their rapt attention! He was a hero, the GOAT, for many of them. And here he was, talking to them, sharing with them, how to be the best they could be. He didn’t talk about winning championships. He talked about doing what it takes to be successful. He told them you have to work hard, every day, every practice, every drill, every single play. That is your focus. The work, the process, not the results. Those will take care of themselves. It was something that Coach Saban says all the time but the players probably get tired of hearing. But on that night, they were hearing it from the GOAT and you could tell it sunk in like never before. I changed my opinion of Kobe a little after seeing that but still mostly ignored him.

Then, I was sitting in line at a fast food restaurant yesterday waiting to give my order and scrolling through Twitter when I saw the first post about his death. It shocked me. Just 41 years old. It wasn’t right. Then, a couple of hours later, we find out about his daughter, Gianna, just 13 years old. Then, 9 people on board. No survivors. Two of Gigi’s teammates. Another dad. A mom. It just got worse.

My perspective on death changed in 1991 when I lost my 18 year old son in an automobile accident. After that, I realized everyone is a child and everyone has parents and family that love them despite whatever issues they may have. I have no idea what kind of person Kobe Bryant really was and I doubt anyone on this forum does. I do know he has a wife and three surviving daughters that love him and Gigi more than anything else and they are hurting. He has millions of fans that love him for the enjoyment he gave to them over the years and they are hurting.

If you didn’t like him, that’s ok. As I said above, I was never a fan. But, what is the point of trying to tear him down and berate him now? Does it make you feel better? Are you looking for a fight with someone who is grieving, or at the very least is sad about his death? Before you hit the Enter key on one of those posts, ask yourself, is this a kind and caring post that will help make a sad, grieving person feel better? If you can’t answer yes to that question, then ask yourself, what am I doing?


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Sorry that you had to go through losing a son. No parent should have to go through that.

FWIW, Bill Russell consensus top 5 of all-time, with Jordan, Magic, Lebron, and Kareem. Larry Bird consensus top 11 of all-time, with Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Oscar.

 

[Rolltydr]

Sorry that you had to go through losing a son. No parent should have to go through that.

FWIW, Bill Russell consensus top 5 of all-time, with Jordan, Magic, Lebron, and Kareem. Larry Bird consensus top 11 of all-time, with Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Oscar.

Thank you and I just can’t even imagine what Vanessa and the other surviving parents are going through right now, losing a child and a spouse at the same time. It’s just unbearably cruel!

Not to get off topic, but I will respond and I tend to look at it in terms of 1 center, 2 guards and 2 forwards. For most of my life, I would have had Russell as best center. However, Kareem was so much better on the offensive end of the court that I have changed my mind in the last few years. I would have Bird in my top 5 with the others you list. I could never agree with 3 Lakers in the next group! ;-) Call me crazy, I would probably leave Shaq off my list. I think my second team might be Russell, Kobe, Big O, Duncan and Havlicek. Duncan because he played in a twin towers role and Havlicek as a small forward over someone else, probably Barkley, because of his championships.




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[am1]

Yeah, it does seem like we hear more reports about helicopter and small aircraft fatal crashes than we do about larger commercial airliners.

How many small planes/helicopters are flying at anytime vs large aircraft? That said I am sure large aircraft are maintained better and employ the best of the best.

 

[WVBaker]

If you didn’t like him, that’s ok. As I said above, I was never a fan. But, what is the point of trying to tear him down and berate him now? Does it make you feel better? Are you looking for a fight with someone who is grieving, or at the very least is sad about his death? Before you hit the Enter key on one of those posts, ask yourself, is this a kind and caring post that will help make a sad, grieving person feel better? If you can’t answer yes to that question, then ask yourself, what am I doing?

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I don't follow basketball and I don't know Kobe Bryant. I don't like or dislike him however, we all must understand that not everyone will see us in a favorable light. One's death does not erase those feelings and shouldn't. We can't expect or demand that only positive things will be said about any person who exits this life. We all "make our beds" and we all need to lie in them. Just as there are many that see Kobe Bryant reverently, right or wrong, there are those that don't. What to say and when to say it will not please everyone and never will.

One person I think described it best.

"Bryant was neither a god nor a demon, though at times he resembled both. He was flawed and complicated, and it’s OK to acknowledge that."

 

[davidvel]

There's no doubt that the pilot was more than qualified to fly the Sikorsky S76B and also fly in the conditions present at the time. This may however, tragically turn out to be an error
in judgment. Many are in no position to question his decision, but there are some who have raised valid points.


"Considering even the LAPD's own fleet had been grounded, questions remain as to who made the decision to fly in such dangerous weather conditions. Zobayan had planned
to land at Burbank Airport. However, he circled mid-air for over 15 minutes waiting for clearance to begin the descent."

"After instructions from the controller, the helicopter climbed to 2,000 ft and then hit the mountain at 1,700 ft. Speaking to the New York Post, sources said Zobayan was in
charge of the helicopter when it hit the ground. Several observers pointed out the crash was most likely a result of him being disoriented rather than mechanical failure."

“When you get in the soup, your senses don’t work," said Paul Cline, assistant professor of aviation at New York University."

"The aircraft subsequently smashed into a rugged hillside with an impact that scattered debris for almost a mile and killed everyone on board. Air traffic controllers were trying to
guide the helicopter to safety, per the audio exchange, but lost contact just moments before it crashed.

Kobe Bryant death: Pilot warned he was flying 'too low' moments before chopper crashed into hill

The chopper hit the ground at almost 190 mph and claimed the lives of the 41-year-old Los Angeles Lakers legend, his 13-year-old daughter Gianna, and seven others.

meaww.com

One issue that may be debated is that there were 9 fatalities, including the pilot. The specifications for this Sikorsky are as follows:

Sikorsky S76B
Occupancy
Crew: 2
Passengers: 6

Sikorsky S76B Specifications, Cabin Dimensions, Performance

The Sikorsky S76B produced by Sikorsky. Specs, range, speed, operating weights and performance for the Sikorsky S76B here

www.globalair.com

Would one additional person make any difference? I don't have a clue. To allow one additional passenger would be the pilot's decision I assume.

I don't understand this at all. They were following freeways until they diverted south of the 101and soon after, crashed. They were no where near Burbank airport.

 

[WVBaker]

I don't understand this at all. They were following freeways until they diverted south of the 101and soon after, crashed. They were no where near Burbank airport.

Seems we wait. The NTSB will likely release a preliminary report within about 10 days. It may take a year or more for the board to announce the cause of the crash.

 

[bogey21]

One person I think described it best.

"Bryant was neither a god nor a demon, though at times he resembled both. He was flawed and complicated, and it’s OK to acknowledge that."

I never was a Kobe fan even though he and I graduated (albeit 42 years apart) from the same High School but I did follow his career. My take is that he had his issues but matured into a decent human being...

George

 

[Grammarhero]

I don't follow basketball and I don't know Kobe Bryant. I don't like or dislike him however, we all must understand that not everyone will see us in a favorable light. One's death does not erase those feelings and shouldn't. We can't expect or demand that only positive things will be said about any person who exits this life. We all "make our beds" and we all need to lie in them. Just as there are many that see Kobe Bryant reverently, right or wrong, there are those that don't. What to say and when to say it will not please everyone and never will.

One person I think described it best.

"Bryant was neither a god nor a demon, though at times he resembled both. He was flawed and complicated, and it’s OK to acknowledge that."

Id say Kobe was a demon once and sometimes a god afterwards. He wasn’t as good of a person as LeBron or Curry who were loyal to their wives and involved in their communities, but he tried his best.

He apologized for his one-time alleged sexual misconduct and seemed to learn and mature from it. He wasn’t an alleged serial sex predator like Weinstein, Michael Jackson, or Pill Cosby.

 

[Rolltydr]

I don't follow basketball and I don't know Kobe Bryant. I don't like or dislike him however, we all must understand that not everyone will see us in a favorable light. One's death does not erase those feelings and shouldn't. We can't expect or demand that only positive things will be said about any person who exits this life. We all "make our beds" and we all need to lie in them. Just as there are many that see Kobe Bryant reverently, right or wrong, there are those that don't. What to say and when to say it will not please everyone and never will.

One person I think described it best.

"Bryant was neither a god nor a demon, though at times he resembled both. He was flawed and complicated, and it’s OK to acknowledge that."

Another person said it better, “There is a time and a place for everything.”

Surely, you would agree that kicking someone who just died is a little extreme? Or, would you? As I read your post, I couldn’t help but see something very familiar in it. I reread it several times and it finally dawned on me. It sounded exactly like something I would have said or written not too long ago. I love to argue, especially online, where I can do so pretty much anonymously. Your post sounds very well reasoned, thoughtful, intelligent. That’s exactly what I used to think when my real purpose was to justify saying something ridiculous or even hurtful. It made me feel smart. You know what it didn’t make me? It didn’t make me any friends. It didn’t make me a nice person. And, it really didn’t make me smart because I couldn’t figure any of this out. All I was doing was trying to make excuses for rude, juvenile behavior.

Kobe was in the public eye since the age of 18. We knew, or thought we did, what kind of person he was. We didn’t. He made a terrible decision when he was a young man and the whole world knew about it. He, and his family, lived with it for the rest of his life and now, in their weakest moments, some of us want to make damn sure they continue to live with it.

Would you be willing to tell the whole world the worst thing you’ve ever done and answer for it the rest of your life? And then have your spouse and kids continue to answer for it as soon as you die?

So, sure, you and everyone else is free to say anything you want about Kobe or anyone else who just died. But what you say is a reflection of your character, not his.


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[Grammarhero]

Another person said it better, “There is a time and a place for everything.”

Surely, you would agree that kicking someone who just died is a little extreme? Or, would you? As I read your post, I couldn’t help but see something very familiar in it. I reread it several times and it finally dawned on me. It sounded exactly like something I would have said or written not too long ago. I love to argue, especially online, where I can do so pretty much anonymously. Your post sounds very well reasoned, thoughtful, intelligent. That’s exactly what I used to think when my real purpose was to justify saying something ridiculous or even hurtful. It made me feel smart. You know what it didn’t make me? It didn’t make me any friends. It didn’t make me a nice person. And, it really didn’t make me smart because I couldn’t figure any of this out. All I was doing was trying to make excuses for rude, juvenile behavior.

Kobe was in the public eye since the age of 18. We knew, or thought we did, what kind of person he was. We didn’t. He made a terrible decision when he was a young man and the whole world knew about it. He, and his family, lived with it for the rest of his life and now, in their weakest moments, some of us want to make damn sure they continue to live with it.

Would you be willing to tell the whole world the worst thing you’ve ever done and answer for it the rest of your life? And then have your spouse and kids continue to answer for it as soon as you die?

So, sure, you and everyone else is free to say anything you want about Kobe or anyone else who just died. But what you say is a reflection of your character, not his.


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Although @WVBaker and I disagree about Kobe, I dont think he’s the type of person you describe. In fact, @WVBaker has defended me against [another poster] who is the person you describe, besides BD’a arguments not being ”well reasoned, thoughtful, intelligent.”

[Edited to remove personal reference]

 

[tompalm]

Here is a good article about Kobe. The last line says it all. He loved his kids and family.

https://apple.news/A6oj4LLUVQuOiaSuQcB-uZQ

my two cents.... To me, the sad thing is that this was a preventable accident that should not have happened. The helicopter had two engines and would have been able to fly or land on one engine. From all accounts, it appears that the pilot was flying through an area of low visibility and ran into the mountain. All the talk about two pilots, having an instrument rating, and special VFR is meaningless. The captain of the aircraft makes decisions to fly and or not fly, and where to fly and two pilots makes no difference. I bet the pilot even had an instrument rating, but thought he didn’t need to fly airways because it is more work and the weather was good enough to see through. It is sad that more people lose their life due to this same reason that has happened before time and time again. I have read too many accident reports that show simple negligence was the cause of hitting a mountain. I have been trying not to say what is on my mind for this thread, because it is so negative. I am disappointed the FAA has done nothing to stop pilots from flying VFR flights in bad weather. I hope I am wrong, but it doesn’t look that way. RIP Kobe. Maybe change will happen.

 

[SmithOp]

It appears he followed the 405 up to the 101 then turned left to go to Thousand Oaks. He ran in to heavy fog/low clouds, talked to controllers for help. I think he was attempting to turn around and head toward Van Nuys airport, flew right into the hillside. He was an instructor at Van Nuys airport and it was closest to his location, not Burbank.

The NTSB press conference was just on the 4pm LA News, the spokeperson confirmed he was talking to controllers and attempting to turn around, and was below their radar. He was requesting permission to ascend into Van Nuys / Burbank airspace.


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[klpca]

Can we please refrain from dragging this thread down? Nine people died, including kids. It is a horrible, unspeakable tragedy! One of those people was known worldwide. Of course, he is going to be the main focus of news reports and social media posts. Because everybody knew him or knew of him. That doesn’t mean the other 8 will not be missed or mourned by those who knew them. It just means one was more famous. All deserve respect and all those who are mourning them deserve respect. It isn’t a competition. I’m 65 years old now but I still remember my mother and grandmother teaching me not to speak ill of the dead. I understand if you didn’t like Kobe as a basketball player, or even as the person you perceived him to be. But, please, hold your thoughts for a few days and let those who are mourning him to do so in peace. Thank you.


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I agree wholeheartedly and offer one additional reason to refrain from too much criticism in these early days. I sincerely doubt that any of his family members will find their way to this thread, but the many similar threads on Twitter or Reddit would be hard to miss. The last thing that his family members should have to read about at this time are negative comments.

A family member lost her husband in a freak accident about 10 years ago, leaving her the sole parent of their two young children. The comments in the newspaper were absolutely heartless - calling him stupid, blaming him for his own death etc. I'm sure that no one would be surprised to hear that the newspaper article was not factually correct either, and you can see how upsetting it was not just to her but also his parents. Luckily the kids were too young then but those comments still live on in the comments section. It was just cruel and insensitive. God forbid any of us suffer a public death and endure public humiliation in addition to the loss of life. It's just the wrong time and the wrong place.

 

[MULTIZ321]

Kobe Bryant death: Helicopter pilot 'climbing' to
avoid clouds just before crash, invesigator says.

Kobe Bryant death: Helicopter pilot 'climbing' to avoid clouds just before crash, investigator says

The pilot of the helicopter that crashed into a hillside outside Los Angeles, killing former NBA superstar Kobe Bryant and eight others, told air traffic controllers in his last radio message that he was climbing to avoid a cloud layer, an accident investigator said.

www.foxbusiness.com

.


Richard

 

[MULTIZ321]

The Sikorsky S-76B was built to carry VIPs like Kobe Bryant. Here's what we know about the helicopter.

The Sikorsky S-76B was built to carry VIPs like Kobe Bryant. Here's what we know about the helicopter

The Sikorsky S-76B that crashed in Calabasas, California, killing Kobe Bryant and eight others, is a "workhorse" with a strong record of reliability, and it was outfitted to carry high rollers like the Los Angeles Lakers legend, aviation experts say.

amp.cnn.com

Richard

 

[Braindead]

.

 

[Rolltydr]

Where in the heck did this come from?? Rolltydr have you posted those comments about me?? If not I don’t get the liked post of Grammarhero.

Jeez, calm down. I liked his post because I hope he is correct in what he said about @WVBaker. I haven’t said anything about you.


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[tompalm]

This just in. There was nothing wrong with the helicopter and the pilot was instrument rated.

https://flip.it/d.q8SU

 

[Grammarhero]

When Michael Jackson died, there was a lot of forced, fake tears and public speeches, largely because that was the cool thing at the time and people couldn’t forget about the allegedly molested children.

For Kobe, I feel the tears are genuine. magic, LeBron, Shaq, Dwayne Wade, doc rivers, Greg popovich, Chris paul, Kylie Irving, Kawhi Leonard, Tim Duncan, Tracy mcgrady, trae young, Jerry west, Carmelo Anthony, Devin Booker, Ja Morant, Sabrina Ionescu. Those real tears speak to his on-court and off-court legacy.