Introducing HGV Max — Our New Membership Program (Official announcement from HGVC)

[letsgobobby]

The original developer purchaser footed the bill. You are paying for O&M. That’s why a smart resale buy is such a steal.

Right but even my annual MF plus my club annual fee doesn't actually cover the ops/maintenance in Hawaii. Who's paying for that, a Hawaii owner who used their week elsewhere?

 

[escanoe]

I read it all, but will only comment on part. I can’t imagine owners of legacy weeks will give them up or be pushed into it. I think it will be like the legacy Marriott weeks. There will be opportunities to get them into Max (likely involving a new purchase) then you can either use your week or the points associated with it in Max.

@HuskerATL and @WORLD TRAVELER

I can see World Traveler’s post above how things will work. This makes sense. I will never trust what a timeshare salesman says, but this seems like it’s the way things will happen.

If I take what’s said above as how it will shake out, here’s my take.

1. The 10 month search function will sting, but won’t be very limiting to us legacy members. HGV Max members can only reserve a limited amount of trips and that’s based on their status. With the prices HGV is charging, the amount of search weeks won’t be too limiting and many members will go for the exclusive, high point resorts. Legacy members will have a hard time booking certain resorts, but places that can be booked now will probably be able to be booked then.

2. Resale points are very limited in Max. With the amount of searches based on your Elite (I know it’s called something else), resale points are only good for either extending stays or 6 month reservations. By basing the searches on retail points, resale points will struggle to be used where people want to go. As people buy into Max (dumb name, the marketing person who decided on that name should be fired), they will be wanting to sell their weeks back to HGV, putting more weeks into the system.

3. Existing Elite members do have an advantage, but they will pay for it. Either pay $7000 or buy more for more money. Not only that, but many of those deeds purchased by many elite were lower MF resorts. Will those owners still pay their lower MF’s or will they have to pay that outrageous $0.22 cost (not convinced that will be the cost as the salesman may have embellished to get the sale and the commission).

4. Scotland was a bigger deal than we knew. @HuskerATL made the best move they could have. Buying that many points to get elite at the cost they did was huge. If the goal was Max, then, for just over $18,000 (with the $7000 Max fee), the status came about as cheap as you can get it.

5. As more resorts are introduced, the legacy resorts will become less popular with Max. This is conjecture, of course but we all love the new, shiny places that HGVC will push as exclusive to them.

6. Owners of hard to book resorts that paid a premium to own there won’t be joining Max if they have to give up their weeks. Places like Oahu, Valdoro, and Hilton Head will want to keep those weeks.

Questions I still have:

1. How will legacy members of Max have their deeds dealt with? Will they have to turn them over? Will they have to pay the Max MF’s?

2. How will this effect Legacy members MF’s? Will they skyrocket or will they keep steady like the other system’s legacy members?

3. How will HGV deal with Max members that don’t want their points anymore? Will they have a buyback or return policy? Will there be a resale market?

4. Is Max a trust or a vacation club? If it’s a trust, when will it come around? If it’s a vacation club, where is the protection for members?

If you got this far in this beast of a post, thanks. It helps my thoughts when I can put them in writing. I’m sure there will be more questions as we learn more about Max.

 

[HuskerATL]

@HuskerATL and @WORLD TRAVELER

I can see World Traveler’s post above how things will work. This makes sense. I will never trust what a timeshare salesman says, but this seems like it’s the way things will happen.

If I take what’s said above as how it will shake out, here’s my take.

1. The 10 month search function will sting, but won’t be very limiting to us legacy members. HGV Max members can only reserve a limited amount of trips and that’s based on their status. With the prices HGV is charging, the amount of search weeks won’t be too limiting and many members will go for the exclusive, high point resorts. Legacy members will have a hard time booking certain resorts, but places that can be booked now will probably be able to be booked then.

2. Resale points are very limited in Max. With the amount of searches based on your Elite (I know it’s called something else), resale points are only good for either extending stays or 6 month reservations. By basing the searches on retail points, resale points will struggle to be used where people want to go. As people buy into Max (dumb name, the marketing person who decided on that name should be fired), they will be wanting to sell their weeks back to HGV, putting more weeks into the system.

3. Existing Elite members do have an advantage, but they will pay for it. Either pay $7000 or buy more for more money. Not only that, but many of those deeds purchased by many elite were lower MF resorts. Will those owners still pay their lower MF’s or will they have to pay that outrageous $0.22 cost (not convinced that will be the cost as the salesman may have embellished to get the sale and the commission).

4. Scotland was a bigger deal than we knew. @HuskerATL made the best move they could have. Buying that many points to get elite at the cost they did was huge. If the goal was Max, then, for just over $18,000 (with the $7000 Max fee), the status came about as cheap as you can get it.

5. As more resorts are introduced, the legacy resorts will become less popular with Max. This is conjecture, of course but we all love the new, shiny places that HGVC will push as exclusive to them.

6. Owners of hard to book resorts that paid a premium to own there won’t be joining Max if they have to give up their weeks. Places like Oahu, Valdoro, and Hilton Head will want to keep those weeks.

Questions I still have:

1. How will legacy members of Max have their deeds dealt with? Will they have to turn them over? Will they have to pay the Max MF’s?

2. How will this effect Legacy members MF’s? Will they skyrocket or will they keep steady like the other system’s legacy members?

3. How will HGV deal with Max members that don’t want their points anymore? Will they have a buyback or return policy? Will there be a resale market?

4. Is Max a trust or a vacation club? If it’s a trust, when will it come around? If it’s a vacation club, where is the protection for members?

If you got this far in this beast of a post, thanks. It helps my thoughts when I can put them in writing. I’m sure there will be more questions as we learn more about Max.

You raise very good questions and we will find out as time goes by. Right now, it feels like they are flying by the seat of their pants. For the Scotland thing, we will see. When the elite status is in my account, I will believe it is real. I am waiting for the rug to be pulled out but either way we have cheap points to use.

 

[dayooper]

I read it all, but will only comment on part. I can’t imagine owners of legacy weeks will give them up or be pushed into it. I think it will be like the legacy Marriott weeks. There will be opportunities to get them into Max (likely involving a new purchase) then you can either use your week or the points associated with it in Max.

And that goes back to the question @CalGalTraveler made. How will Max be set up and how will HGV deal with the crossover between Max, Legacy HGVC and Legacy DRI?

 

[escanoe]

Looks like to me you placed a smart bet. You will get elite with it written in the sales deal.

But even if it is devalued or doesn’t play out as you expect, you still got an excellent deal on points.

I have no doubt rescinding the developer purchase was the right move for now.

You raise very good questions and we will find out as time goes by. Right now, it feels like they are flying by the seat of their pants. For the Scotland thing, we will see. When the elite status is in my account, I will believe it is real. I am waiting for the rug to be pulled out but either way we have cheap points to use.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@dayooper Good points. I thought if you pay the Max fee your resales also are requalified with it? If not, Max is not appealing because we only have one 7680 pt retail deed which would not reserve a corner in the basement at a DRI property when a week at P@P runs $21,500 points. If true, the Max population which is using 10 month searches will be extremely small because we could only make a small search with 7680 points at 10 months no matter how many searches the elite allows.

We will be very happy using Legacy with our low cost resale points unless Max offers some value. We already have AI reservations with our BHC and Honors Gold from that deed too. If we really want a DRI stay, we could rent or trade via II/RCI.

I can see the fear selling by reps now, "You will not have access to Legacy inventory if you don't upgrade." MVC and Vistana reps repeat the same BS. Don't believe it. We will likely be dead or will have sold our units by the time those changes affect us.

 

[escanoe]

My guess is moving forward for new properties points will be in a trust and members obtain points from owning in the trust.

Then there is an exchange/booking process. Points from the trust or points from deeds enrolled in HGV Max can be used to book.

But we are ahead of ourselves and need to see the rules to really know anything.

And that goes back to the question @CalGalTraveler made. How will Max be set up and how will HGV deal with the crossover between Max, Legacy HGVC and Legacy DRI?

 

[dayooper]

@dayooper Good points. I thought if you pay the Max fee your resales also are requalified with it? If not, Max is not appealing because we only have one 8400 pt retail deed which would not reserve a corner in the basement at a DRI property when a week at P@P runs $21,500 points. If true, the Max population which is using 10 month searches will be extremely small because we could only make a small search with 8400 points at 10 months no matter how many searches the elite allows.

I believe they can be used in Max, but they don’t count toward your tier status and that status determines how many 10 month searches you get. Resale points, I believe can be used for Max, giving you the ability to book higher point resorts. You just only get the amount of searches your tier status dictates. Your plan, if it turns out you can use those resale points, is great idea to get into P@P. The only issue would be if those Max members with a higher tier status wants that same reservation and they would get priority. If you are flexible, it just might work.

This is just how I interpret the rules I have read and what has been reported here. I could be completely wrong and that wouldn’t surprise me if I am. Just ask my wife, she will tell you I am not perfect (she’s a saint for dealing with me).

 

[HuskerATL]

@dayooper Good points. I thought if you pay the Max fee your resales also are requalified with it? If not, Max is not appealing because we only have one 8400 pt retail deed which would not reserve a corner in the basement at a DRI property when a week at P@P runs $21,500 points. If true, the Max population which is using 10 month searches will be extremely small because we could only make a small search with 8400 points at 10 months no matter how many searches the elite allows.

Max or not, we will be very happy using Legacy with our low cost resale points.

I can see the fear selling by reps now, "You will not have access to Legacy inventory if you don't upgrade." MVC and Vistana reps repeat the same BS. Don't believe it. We will likely be dead or will have sold our units by the time those changes affect us.

It is interesting. The sales rep commented that we need to have retail to get in Max (he also commented that we wouldn't even have had that owners meeting if we didn't own the retail Tuscany) and pay the $7k fee or upgrade a resale to retail, like they were pushing us for, or buy a retail and you are in for free. However, in the Max FAQs, they do mention options for resale owners but maybe it will be upgrading. He mentioned after you are in Max, additional resale purchases will add to the point total like they do now so it does sound like it is just a matter of joining it but once in, it is business as usual. However, the other questions that folks have raised about MF cost increases, etc. aren't answered yet and I didn't ask that at the meeting.

 

[Mongoose]

Right but even my annual MF plus my club annual fee doesn't actually cover the ops/maintenance in Hawaii. Who's paying for that, a Hawaii owner who used their week elsewhere?

That is how its supposed to work. The MFs covers operations, taxes, reserves, etc. Now if the HOA is under funding and differing maintenance and renovations, its likely you could get caught with a special assessment. Log in to you resorts HOA site and look at the financials. that will give you a complete breakdown. If you are talking about big HGV, well they make all their money and then some off selling developer units and retail prices.

 

[Mongoose]

It is interesting. The sales rep commented that we need to have retail to get in Max (he also commented that we wouldn't even have had that owners meeting if we didn't own the retail Tuscany) and pay the $7k fee or upgrade a resale to retail, like they were pushing us for, or buy a retail and you are in for free. However, in the Max FAQs, they do mention options for resale owners but maybe it will be upgrading. He mentioned after you are in Max, additional resale purchases will add to the point total like they do now so it does sound like it is just a matter of joining it but once in, it is business as usual. However, the other questions that folks have raised about MF cost increases, etc. aren't answered yet and I didn't ask that at the meeting.

I suspect the new developer prices are built around and include HGVMax. The $7K is if you have existing retail and don't buy more. They are trying to make it look attractive to buy more points and get something "free".

 

[Mongoose]

I would expect Elites to have free access at a minimum.

You would think, if they valued their owners. Its basic timeshare/sales tactics. Sell someone on something new and shiny and play to their egos. Then introduce something new and shiny and if they don't buy they are no longer "special".

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

If HGVC Legacy availability declines over time, resale deeds anywhere other than desirable locations will decline in value, too. Then they can Exercise ROFR at lower prices, and resell those units in Max. I guess that's good business in their part, especially if there are enough suckers willing to pay developer prices and now, Max MFs.

I have always wondered about the economics of resale. How can I buy a week for $1200 at location A and pay a MF of $1500 and reserve a week in a 2 BR in Hawaii and have the economics work out? I'm getting a deal that's too good to be true, who's footing the bill?

It's not "too good to be true". Here's where you pay (so to speak) - there is no guarantee you can get that Hawaii week. You have access to that 2 BR Hawaiian week IF AVAILABLE. That's part of the exchange setup. However if you <own> at the Hawaiian resort, you get initial priority (the home week reservation) over anybody else except other home week owners at that resort. You're trading choice priority for monetary savings. . .

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Plus if you don't trade it for points, they rent it out for cash via Open Season which is pure profit because the MF was paid by the owner.

 

[letsgobobby]

It is interesting. The sales rep commented that we need to have retail to get in Max (he also commented that we wouldn't even have had that owners meeting if we didn't own the retail Tuscany) and pay the $7k fee or upgrade a resale to retail, like they were pushing us for, or buy a retail and you are in for free. However, in the Max FAQs, they do mention options for resale owners but maybe it will be upgrading. He mentioned after you are in Max, additional resale purchases will add to the point total like they do now so it does sound like it is just a matter of joining it but once in, it is business as usual. However, the other questions that folks have raised about MF cost increases, etc. aren't answered yet and I didn't ask that at the meeting.

Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?

 

[Mongoose]

Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?

I doubt if your resale points would be Max without additional $.

 

[HuskerATL]

Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?

I don't know. I know in my contract, that I didn't do, in the fee list, it says $199/contract Inventory Activation Fee so maybe you can choose which to add.

 

[NiteMaire]

I don't know. I know in my contract, that I didn't do, in the fee list, it says $199/contract Inventory Activation Fee so maybe you can choose which to add.

Maybe, but that would be different than what has been stated. Then again, it could have changed prior to implementation or someone had bad information. Shocking, I know. I actually think they'd get more people to join Max if owners could pick and choose which units to move to Max (outside of new purchases). Then again, would owners now have 2 club fees?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Good thing you rescinded. I would have been upset if it only covered the retail unit.

Here is another question: Assuming you opt a retail unit into Max and cannot bring along your resales to MAX.

• Do such owners access both systems - Max and Legacy systems separately? How do you combine points if one account is low? or borrow from future years?
• What's happens if you sell your Max retail unit and keep your resales? Are you kicked out of Max and lose all benefits even though you paid the opt in fee?

IMO from a practical and IT complexity perspective, I would surmise all resale and retail would have to be together in one account to make Max work, unless they firewall or bucket your Retail/resale points (useless - deal breaker).

Most owners only own one deed so HGV doesn't design in terms of multi-unit owners. However, as we experienced with the division of the bHC points and Club points into separate buckets it remains a mess to this day and usually requires a call into specialized people to manually get the right points in the right buckets after a cancellation.

I don't have high hopes that they have thought this through, yet sales is saying whatever will sell without a functioning website to know how this will ultimately work. There are going to be disappointed MAX owners unless they combine the Max opt in with resales and other retail units.

 

[HuskerATL]

Maybe, but that would be different than what has been stated. Then again, it could have changed prior to implementation or someone had bad information. Shocking, I know. I actually think they'd get more people to join Max if owners could pick and choose which units to move to Max (outside of new purchases). Then again, would owners now have 2 club fees?

Max has a club fee of $281 but the sales rep said that we would pay the difference between the $193 club fee that we already paid for this year so that implies that there is just one fee if you join.

 

[HuskerATL]

What's happens if you sell your Max retail unit and keep your resales? Are you kicked out of Max and lose all benefits even though you paid the opt in fee?

This is my question about my Tuscany property. If we did join, leveraging our retail Tuscany and then dumped it, would we be booted since the rest of what we own is resale? Like how Elite works. For us and if we would have done that deal, we would have come in with only retail but the sales rep said that we could add to our point total in Max with future resales. I am not sure how it works by coming in with both.

 

[HuskerATL]

Okay. Here are the parts of the Kohala contract mentioning Max:

 

[NiteMaire]

Okay. Here are the parts of the Kohala contract mentioning Max:

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So now we know that the HGV Max 6 month inventory adds access to THE Club (DRI) inventory. And we see Max doesn't automatically transfer with resale. I'd like to see the contract they offer to DRI owners who join Max. I presume it's the reciprocal for HGVC inventory.

 

[escanoe]

Maybe already answered, but once you have a max eligible retail deed, are all your points Max, or only the ones attached to the retail deed?

I feel for sure you have an opportunity to get all your points in Max when you do this …. I am also wondering what happens if you buy more resale after you are in Max.

 

[HuskerATL]

I feel for sure you have an opportunity to get all your points in Max when you do this …. I am also wondering what happens if you buy more resale after you are in Max.

according to the sales rep last week, they just add in like they do now.