I need a guide to help me decide how best to exit

[easyrider]

Bad idea in your situation. Splitting accounts takes forever and you can only do 1 (or 2; not many) per year so you would be paying $11K in dues per year while this spun out. Again, value vs cost isn't there and it's a pain. The transfer department is ridiculously slow and clumsy. Just rent our the credits and default and carry on.

When you die, your immediate family members can split an account is what I asked before combining some accounts. I think you are thinking of adding accounts which is limited to 1 a year. So the option of splitting is available if immediate family members want this option. If they want it why would you say it's a bad option ?

Bill

 

[easyrider]

Thanks for your input. I will probably run it past my siblings, but I'll talk to an attorney first. As executor, I'm also wondering if the defaulted loan would need to be paid from the estate and the timing around that.

If the assets are held in a trust and the timeshare held as personal property then there are no real problems defaulting. If the 90 year old defaults before death it would depend on the credit used to purchase the membership. After death, the person whom passed away estate is responsible for the debt. It would happen during probate which in Washington can take up to a year. With a trust there is no probate.

Bill

 

[sue1947]

This is from his WorldMark by Wyndham account. Does this mean his anniversary date is 3/1?

Credits Balance

Available 135,000 Valid thru 02/29/24

Available 135,000 Valid thru 02/28/25

Nope: Feb 1. They are good through the end of the month when they are awarded.
You can rent at full price but the sooner the better. As you get closer to the end of the year, those 2/24 credits become less appealing since the buyer will have less time to use them.
The renter can use those 2024 credits for another 13 months; until the end of Feb 2025 as long as they are kept in a reservation.

 

[jowashington]

Nope: Feb 1. They are good through the end of the month when they are awarded.
You can rent at full price but the sooner the better. As you get closer to the end of the year, those 2/24 credits become less appealing since the buyer will have less time to use them.
The renter can use those 2024 credits for another 13 months; until the end of Feb 2025 as long as they are kept in a reservation.

Thank you, I will check into this on Monday. Do I just call WorldMark? If so, do you know which department?

Also, if anyone has any general tips about how to get worldmark to talk to me faster when I call, I'd really appreciate that as well. I feel like it takes the entire day.

 

[jowashington]

If the assets are held in a trust and the timeshare held as personal property then there are no real problems defaulting. If the 90 year old defaults before death it would depend on the credit used to purchase the membership. After death, the person whom passed away estate is responsible for the debt. It would happen during probate which in Washington can take up to a year. With a trust there is no probate.

Bill

If the assets are held in a trust and the timeshare held as personal property then there are no real problems defaulting. If the 90 year old defaults before death it would depend on the credit used to purchase the membership. After death, the person whom passed away estate is responsible for the debt. It would happen during probate which in Washington can take up to a year. With a trust there is no probate.

Bill

Purely theoretically, and I will ask an attorney, but let's say he lives five more years, and defaults The loan and stops paying the maintenance starting now, does it seem likely that the estate would still be responsible for a debt that's been foreclosed on for let's say 4 years?

 

[DeniseM]

NO - once the foreclosure is complete, it's ancient history - another good reason to have him default now. I would also be sure that the timeshare is not in his Will/Trust.

 

[sue1947]

Thank you, I will check into this on Monday. Do I just call WorldMark? If so, do you know which department?

Nope. Once you are registered at wmowers, start a thread in the credits for rent out section. Read the 'how to' info on what to include. Once you have a renter/buyer for those credits, you fill out a form and THEN Worldmark gets involved. Essentially, you fill out your account info and the account info for the person who is renting them from you. Specify which credits go; i.e. which expiration date and how many and they take care of doing the actual transfer.
The form is on the website: credit assignment form. You will have to be logged in to get there. To navigate there: Click on Owner Guide, then scroll down to Guidelines and Policies and then Credit assignment. In little bitty print, there is a link to the form which you will fill out and submit. It used to take a couple of days, but they screwed up the website so now everything is an effort and the phone lines are swamped. If you click on the form, you might get the form or you might get an error statement. You will then need to call and have them mail you the form to then fill out and mail back. There is a thread at wmowners about issues others have encountered. There's supposedly another IT fix for the website on July 14, but who knows if it will actually fix anything or just make it worse. Wyndham has a reputation (well earned) for incompetent IT.

 

[e.bram]

In a default you could ask for a jury trial and get an OJ.

 

[DeniseM]

Jo - e.bram is kidding.

 

[VacationForever]

Thank you for such a detailed explanation, I really appreciate it.

Just to clarify, my parents had purchased timeshares probably for the last 30 years . My mom, who died 10 years ago and he would travel the world and we took some family trips. It was just since she passed that he stopped traveling as much and that he got talked into adding even more credits. He bought into the idea that he would be leaving this wonderful gift for us kids when he passed.

I'm hearing, possibly mistakenly, from other posters that I must pay off the loan to be able to rent out the credits, and just to double triple clarify, you're saying that's not necessary, is that correct?

You can rent credits all day long regardless of whether you have a loan or not.

 

[easyrider]

Purely theoretically, and I will ask an attorney, but let's say he lives five more years, and defaults The loan and stops paying the maintenance starting now, does it seem likely that the estate would still be responsible for a debt that's been foreclosed on for let's say 4 years?

It depends on the line of credit. Wyndham financing might be a Wyndham / Barclay credit card. Barclay finances many resort sales. If it's a line of credit through an American company that was used to finance the membership then it is likely a secured personal loan type situation where the membership is the security. If the credit is revolving then it is likely a credit card debt. When this debt is not paid the first thing that could happen is a notice and then collection efforts. With both types of debt, the interest rate usually increases and the debt is reported delinquent. If it foreclosed on before death there is nothing to probate. Washington State is an anti-deficiency state regarding foreclosures. If the debt isn't settled by the time of death then it goes to probate and is paid if there are funds to pay it.

If there isn't that much owed on the membership you might be able to sell it. The membership would need to be paid off before it could be transferred. This buyer would pay this to a broker who would place the funds in an escrow account. With a 135,000 account you could get $.20 a credit pretty easy or $27,000. In addition to the selling price you could get $.07 for the one time use credit that have some range, about $9,450 and $.05 for the one time use credits that expire within a year, about $6750 without too much problem. You would have a broker cost and a transfer cost as well. I think the transfer fee is about $300. No idea of a brokers fee. Remember, I started off the selling scenario with might.

If the 90 year old transfers the assets out of his name but keeps the membership in his name there isn't really anything to probate. In Washington it's estates with over $100,000 of personal property that is probated. In this scenario you wouldn't need to do anything as the resort would need to speak to the 90 year old guy about the membership and he has passed.

Bill

 

[DeniseM]

If there isn't that much owed on the membership you might be able to sell it.

Bill - He owes $70,000. See the first few posts for all of the details.

 

[jowashington]

Nope. Once you are registered at wmowers, start a thread in the credits for rent out section. Read the 'how to' info on what to include. Once you have a renter/buyer for those credits, you fill out a form and THEN Worldmark gets involved. Essentially, you fill out your account info and the account info for the person who is renting them from you. Specify which credits go; i.e. which expiration date and how many and they take care of doing the actual transfer.
The form is on the website: credit assignment form. You will have to be logged in to get there. To navigate there: Click on Owner Guide, then scroll down to Guidelines and Policies and then Credit assignment. In little bitty print, there is a link to the form which you will fill out and submit. It used to take a couple of days, but they screwed up the website so now everything is an effort and the phone lines are swamped. If you click on the form, you might get the form or you might get an error statement. You will then need to call and have them mail you the form to then fill out and mail back. There is a thread at wmowners about issues others have encountered. There's supposedly another IT fix for the website on July 14, but who knows if it will actually fix anything or just make it worse. Wyndham has a reputation (well earned) for incompetent IT.

Awesome, I got your messages there and will dive into this tomorrow. Thanks for the insights here.

I feel this - Wyndham has a reputation (well earned) for incompetent IT. - In the few calls I've made to Wyndham so far, I've lost several years of my life already.

 

[jowashington]

It depends on the line of credit. Wyndham financing might be a Wyndham / Barclay credit card. Barclay finances many resort sales. If it's a line of credit through an American company that was used to finance the membership then it is likely a secured personal loan type situation where the membership is the security. If the credit is revolving then it is likely a credit card debt. When this debt is not paid the first thing that could happen is a notice and then collection efforts. With both types of debt, the interest rate usually increases and the debt is reported delinquent. If it foreclosed on before death there is nothing to probate. Washington State is an anti-deficiency state regarding foreclosures. If the debt isn't settled by the time of death then it goes to probate and is paid if there are funds to pay it.

If there isn't that much owed on the membership you might be able to sell it. The membership would need to be paid off before it could be transferred. This buyer would pay this to a broker who would place the funds in an escrow account. With a 135,000 account you could get $.20 a credit pretty easy or $27,000. In addition to the selling price you could get $.07 for the one time use credit that have some range, about $9,450 and $.05 for the one time use credits that expire within a year, about $6750 without too much problem. You would have a broker cost and a transfer cost as well. I think the transfer fee is about $300. No idea of a brokers fee. Remember, I started off the selling scenario with might.

If the 90 year old transfers the assets out of his name but keeps the membership in his name there isn't really anything to probate. In Washington it's estates with over $100,000 of personal property that is probated. In this scenario you wouldn't need to do anything as the resort would need to speak to the 90 year old guy about the membership and he has passed.

Bill

Would I find the financing info on his contract?

RE: Washington State is an anti-deficiency state regarding foreclosures. I'll go look up what this means, but it sounds like you're saying we should default as quickly as possible so he doesn't die before it's foreclosed on. Any idea how long it will likely take if I started it in a few weeks? I'm not sure it matters, but if he were to pass today, he'd be well above the amount that requires probate as he owns his home and has money in investments and some cash.

While he may live much longer or need healthcare services that wipe out his nest egg, so it may be a moot point, I'm also curious how much the interest and late fees/penalties would/will wipe out any inheritance his family members (me included) would receive. Not that any of us are entitled to it, he earned it all, but I still feel like someone will raise this question. I do get that I may be reading tea leaves for my answer on that, but I'm curious what y'all know about that.

 

[jowashington]

You've all been so helpful; thank you! I sat down with my dad this morning and talked about the option of foreclosure and, once I figure it out, renting his points beforehand (I'd never heard of this before, but the whole timeshare world is new to me, so I guess it's not surprising), to recoup a little cash, he's all for it, and your additional comments that came in as I was driving home have eased my mind a great deal.

 

[Patri]

I doubt your sibs will push back, but if they do, put their names on the deed and they can take over payments. If your dad has a house to sell, he will have plenty of money for assisted. Walk away from this mess as soon as possible. Honestly, don’t worry about the credit score. If necessary, couldn’t you and your siblings cover his AL costs? Your dad is legitimately old. He will not live forever. These should be his golden years without this stress over making a few bucks.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I doubt your sibs will push back, but if they do, put their names on the deed and they can take over payments. If your dad has a house to sell, he will have plenty of money for assisted. Walk away from this mess as soon as possible. Honestly, don’t worry about the credit score. If necessary, couldn’t you and your siblings cover his AL costs? Your dad is legitimately old. He will not live forever. These should be his golden years without this stress over making a few bucks.

You mean put their names on the deed to his house, right? Under no circumstances should he be adding anyone to the timeshare deed.

 

[sue1947]

One more question that may not be relevant, but I want to check. You indicated your parents had used timeshares for 30 years, so this is in the right timeframe:
When did you dad purchase originally? If before mid-1991, this might be a Grandfathered account aka No HouseKeeping account. These sell for more, though I'm not sure if it would be enough to cover the debt. The account info you posted lists Housekeeping services which means this is probably NOT one, but they sometimes load those into the NHK accounts as a way to get around incompetent programming.
These accounts were only sold the first year or so and they started charging HK fees sometime in 1991 so folks that had already purchased were grandfathered in. There are less than 1500 of them out there so the chances of this being one of them is pretty slim, but wanted to touch all the bases here.

 

[Patri]

You mean put their names on the deed to his house, right? Under no circumstances should he be adding anyone to the timeshare deed.

No. If the sibs don’t want to get rid of the timeshares, they can take over the ts deeds. The OP needs to solve this sooner rather than later for his dad.

 

[jowashington]

No. If the sibs don’t want to get rid of the timeshares, they can take over the ts deeds. The OP needs to solve this sooner rather than later for his dad.

Hi, I did include an overview at the beginning of the thread and said, "none of his family members want this debt or to vacation in timeshares". Also, I'm here primarily to solve this expeditiously.

I brought up my siblings for two reasons. Firstly, I want them to agree or at least support this plan because they understand it's the correct one. While I don't expect them to delve as deeply into it as I am currently doing, I do want to ensure I have verifiable facts in order when presenting the plan to them. As far as I know, none of my family members have ever defaulted on a loan, so not fulfilling a contractual obligation feels completely against our principles.

Secondly, as the executor of my father's will and feeling a responsibility towards my father's heirs, I aim to gain a clear understanding of how the size of the estate and any obligations would be affected based on the stage of the process we are in when my dad eventually passes.

 

[jowashington]

One more question that may not be relevant, but I want to check. You indicated your parents had used timeshares for 30 years, so this is in the right timeframe:
When did you dad purchase originally? If before mid-1991, this might be a Grandfathered account aka No HouseKeeping account. These sell for more, though I'm not sure if it would be enough to cover the debt. The account info you posted lists Housekeeping services which means this is probably NOT one, but they sometimes load those into the NHK accounts as a way to get around incompetent programming.
These accounts were only sold the first year or so and they started charging HK fees sometime in 1991 so folks that had already purchased were grandfathered in. There are less than 1500 of them out there so the chances of this being one of them is pretty slim, but wanted to touch all the bases here.

As far as I can tell it was about 25 years ago that my parents purchased their initial timeshare, probably on a cruise they took. My mom died 10 years ago and my dad then went on to sign a series of additional contracts or contract additions of points, I imagine that's where the housekeeping account came into play, but I don't yet have clarity on that.

 

[easyrider]

Would I find the financing info on his contract?

RE: Washington State is an anti-deficiency state regarding foreclosures. I'll go look up what this means, but it sounds like you're saying we should default as quickly as possible so he doesn't die before it's foreclosed on. Any idea how long it will likely take if I started it in a few weeks? I'm not sure it matters, but if he were to pass today, he'd be well above the amount that requires probate as he owns his home and has money in investments and some cash.

While he may live much longer or need healthcare services that wipe out his nest egg, so it may be a moot point, I'm also curious how much the interest and late fees/penalties would/will wipe out any inheritance his family members (me included) would receive. Not that any of us are entitled to it, he earned it all, but I still feel like someone will raise this question. I do get that I may be reading tea leaves for my answer on that, but I'm curious what y'all know about that.

Anti deficiency in regards to this type of debt is their inability to collect anything other than the membership in foreclosure.

I was just told that Worldmark uses Wyndham Consumer Finance for the financing of Worldmark memberships. So it's not a credit card but a line of credit. I think this is capped at 12% by the Washington State usury laws.

If you aren't the power of attorney or your dads legal personal representative you would need to have him call Worldmark to allow you access to his account. On the website there should be a way of seeing when credits were bought and how much is actually owed. Then you can decide if it's worth selling. Then communicate with a broker to see if it's worth selling. There is a company that everyone here likes called LT Transfers. https://www.lttransfers.com/

Your dad could start a trust and place his assets into the trust while leaving the membership out and keeping it as personal property. Trusts avoid probate and up to $100,000 of personal property isn't subject to probate in Washington.

Bill

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

No. If the sibs don’t want to get rid of the timeshares, they can take over the ts deeds. The OP needs to solve this sooner rather than later for his dad.

That timeshare is severely underwater. Nobody should be taking over the deed.

 

[Patri]

That timeshare is severely underwater. Nobody should be taking over the deed.

Of course. You missed the point of the post.

 

[jasontugaccount]

I've been watching the resale market for WorldMark closely as I have been looking to buy for about 3 months. It seems the value of WorldMark is something like a bell curve based on points owned. Way up at that top end - 135k annual points - you will not find many people willing to take on those monthly maintenance fees so the demand is going to be pretty low for that account. 135k annual points is probably worth less than 50k annual points for that reason.