I need a guide to help me decide how best to exit

[RX8]

Thank you, I will read the site you linked in the morning.

It sounds like you're saying I could sell his credits, even without paying off the loan? That option hadn't occurred to me. I thought I had to pay it off before I could sell it.

Must be paid in full only prior to selling outright. You can rent out the points as long as the account is in good standing. I agree with others that he was scammed. Doesn’t make sense to pay off $70K to recoup a few thousand.

 

[VacationForever]

Thank you, I will read the site you linked in the morning.

It sounds like you're saying I could sell his credits, even without paying off the loan? That option hadn't occurred to me. I thought I had to pay it off before I could sell it.

One time use credits is equivalent to renting out his credits. The credits are renewed each year at anniversary month. They are good for 24 months to use. You rent out the credits to recover the maintenance fees that you are paying every month, separate from the loan. When you let the contract default by stop payment, you should sell these one time use credits to recover some money before you do so.

 

[sue1947]

Your father has a 135K credit account. Credits are Worldmark's name for points.
Selling would require paying off the loan and you might get $10-15K for that size account so not worth paying $70K.
There is no deed for WM.
Renting credits means you keep the account but can transfer credits from your account to another owner. There's a form to fill out and it usually only takes a few days, but Wyndham, the management company for Worldmark, just 'updated' their website and totally screwed things up so it may take a little longer.
Go to this section in the Classified ad at wmowners.com; this is a website by and for Worldmark owners and is where you will get the best info and advise on what to do. You can look through this section to see what things rent for. Classified for rent
Also look at the section on Memberships for rent to see what things are selling for. The rent and sale part at the top of the Classifieds is for discussions and is the best spot to ask for help.
When do those credits expire? ie. when do the new credits come in. When you rent, that expiration date makes a difference on how much they are worth. You have 2 years worth of credits that can be rented out. If your anniversary month has already passed this year, you have 135K credits that expire in 2025 and another group that expires in 2024. If that anniversary month is in the future, those credits will expire in 2024 and 2023. That last bunch will be of concern. You would want to get those rented out asap and then rent out the new credits when they arrive in his account.
Once you have rented out all those credits, stop paying the maintenance fees. You can't transfer credits if the maintenance fees are in arrears, so get those rented out first.
Sounds like he bought from the developer vs resale which likely means he also is paying Travelshare dues. The maintenance fees (dues) for his size account is $11209.42/year. Anything over that is the Travelshare portion. You can cancel that portion now. Travelshare is a developer add on that they use to try to entice people (like your father) to buy from them vs resale. The benefits are overblown and mostly worthless. Your father has a large enough account that he didn't pay any housekeeping fees, but since he never used it, there's no point. It doesn't transfer and there is no sense paying it while you get the credits rented out. If you are able to rent out all the credits now, ignore this paragraph and default on all the dues + loan after the credits transfer.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I know it might be hard to answer this question, but what do you think the chances are of them putting a lien on his house?

This is probably unlikely but also heavily dependent on what state you live in and some other complicated circumstances that you would need to speak to a lawyer about. Rules concerning foreclosure deficiency judgments vary from state to state.

 

[ScoopKona]

I know it might be hard to answer this question, but what do you think the chances are of them putting a lien on his house?

I've been reading these "what should I do" posts for a long time (not as long as many others, though). I don't remember ever reading "Help! Timeshare company put a lien on my house!"

Having a timeshare repossessed is roughly the same as having a car repossessed.

That is probably your best option. Because as people have mentioned, you cannot sell what you have unless what you have is made current -- so you'll be spending thousands to make pennies on the dollar in return. Change his phone number and walk away. If I was in this position, that's what I would do.

 

[e.bram]

Could he put the house in"life estate", then, he could live there as long as he is alive but does not own it, his heirs do and they are insulated from the debt!

 

[jowashington]

Could he put the house in"life estate", then, he could live there as long as he is alive but does not own it, his heirs do and they are insulated from the debt!

I will look into this, thanks for mentioning it.

 

[jowashington]

I've been reading these "what should I do" posts for a long time (not as long as many others, though). I don't remember ever reading "Help! Timeshare company put a lien on my house!"

Having a timeshare repossessed is roughly the same as having a car repossessed.

That is probably your best option. Because as people have mentioned, you cannot sell what you have unless what you have is made current -- so you'll be spending thousands to make pennies on the dollar in return. Change his phone number and walk away. If I was in this position, that's what I would do.

I will attempt to verify this with an attorney, thank you for bringing it up.

 

[jowashington]

This is probably unlikely but also heavily dependent on what state you live in and some other complicated circumstances that you would need to speak to a lawyer about. Rules concerning foreclosure deficiency judgments vary from state to state.

I'm in Washington State. I called six or seven lawyers a couple of months back to ask about exiting but none of them seemed to have any recent timeshare exit experience. But I imagine any WA attorney could explain whether there would be a lein or not. Thank you.

 

[jowashington]

Your father has a 135K credit account. Credits are Worldmark's name for points.
Selling would require paying off the loan and you might get $10-15K for that size account so not worth paying $70K.
There is no deed for WM.
Renting credits means you keep the account but can transfer credits from your account to another owner. There's a form to fill out and it usually only takes a few days, but Wyndham, the management company for Worldmark, just 'updated' their website and totally screwed things up so it may take a little longer.
Go to this section in the Classified ad at wmowners.com; this is a website by and for Worldmark owners and is where you will get the best info and advise on what to do. You can look through this section to see what things rent for. Classified for rent
Also look at the section on Memberships for rent to see what things are selling for. The rent and sale part at the top of the Classifieds is for discussions and is the best spot to ask for help.
When do those credits expire? ie. when do the new credits come in. When you rent, that expiration date makes a difference on how much they are worth. You have 2 years worth of credits that can be rented out. If your anniversary month has already passed this year, you have 135K credits that expire in 2025 and another group that expires in 2024. If that anniversary month is in the future, those credits will expire in 2024 and 2023. That last bunch will be of concern. You would want to get those rented out asap and then rent out the new credits when they arrive in his account.
Once you have rented out all those credits, stop paying the maintenance fees. You can't transfer credits if the maintenance fees are in arrears, so get those rented out first.
Sounds like he bought from the developer vs resale which likely means he also is paying Travelshare dues. The maintenance fees (dues) for his size account is $11209.42/year. Anything over that is the Travelshare portion. You can cancel that portion now. Travelshare is a developer add on that they use to try to entice people (like your father) to buy from them vs resale. The benefits are overblown and mostly worthless. Your father has a large enough account that he didn't pay any housekeeping fees, but since he never used it, there's no point. It doesn't transfer and there is no sense paying it while you get the credits rented out. If you are able to rent out all the credits now, ignore this paragraph and default on all the dues + loan after the credits transfer.

Thank you for such a detailed explanation, I really appreciate it.

Just to clarify, my parents had purchased timeshares probably for the last 30 years . My mom, who died 10 years ago and he would travel the world and we took some family trips. It was just since she passed that he stopped traveling as much and that he got talked into adding even more credits. He bought into the idea that he would be leaving this wonderful gift for us kids when he passed.

I'm hearing, possibly mistakenly, from other posters that I must pay off the loan to be able to rent out the credits, and just to double triple clarify, you're saying that's not necessary, is that correct?

 

[Passepartout]

Another thought. Sic his congressional rep on them for scamming a 90 y.o. constituent. WM would HATE getting examined by Congress.

Jim

 

[jowashington]

Another thought. Sic his congressional rep on them for scamming a 90 y.o. constituent. WM would HATE getting examined by Congress.

Jim

Very interesting idea. I could go to the news too. I'm not sure he wants this much attention to his what he considers a terrible mistake
in judgment. But I do like the idea of it. We'll see.

 

[easyrider]

Thank you. Are credits = points? If not, how do I tell how many points he has?

He has:

Credits available
270,000

Credits available to borrow
135,000

He's completely determined to stay in his home as long as possible, but you've got me thinking if it might make sense for him to continue to pay off the loan and pay the monthly maintenance fees for another few years until he must move and then default. I'm concerned if his family members would be gone after for the defaulted loan.

If there is anything other than the maintenance fee owed, such as a loan that has to be paid on the contract, the membership is very hard to sell. If the loan is not directly from Wyndham, and is a revolving line of credit, then the default is likely not defaulting on Wyndham and would be a default on the bank that issued the credit.

135,000 credits = about 17 weeks in a 1 bed unit or 13.5 in a 2 bed unit. You could offer to rent these points to other owners or make reservations and sell them. If you aren't able to do this you could hire someone to do this for you.

When the account is paid off you could break it up into smaller accounts and sell those, split it with other family members or just sell it as is. You could hire someone to do this if you can't do this. I think Wyndham could walk you through this.

You could just default on the loan and at 90 I doubt that taking the hit to a credit score matters. The problem might be who you are defaulting on and even then it probably isn't going to be a big problem.

Bill

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I'm in Washington State. I called six or seven lawyers a couple of months back to ask about exiting but none of them seemed to have any recent timeshare exit experience. But I imagine any WA attorney could explain whether there would be a lein or not. Thank you.

Deleted post.

 

[sue1947]

I'm hearing, possibly mistakenly, from other posters that I must pay off the loan to be able to rent out the credits, and just to double triple clarify, you're saying that's not necessary, is that correct?

I believe so. Most posters here are not WM owners and are not familiar with how things work. I haven't done it myself, so am not 100% sure, but I think this is a means utilized to get people current with their loans. Post at wmowners.com in the Rent/Sale section and ask this question. You are more likely to get somebody who has done it to get the loan paid off or rented from somebody in that situation.
Edit: I just realized you never indicated he was behind on the loan; is he? Or is he still paying and just owes the $70K? If the latter, of course he can rent those credits. Most who buy from the developer have a loan that they are paying on and still have full use of their account.

There is a difference between renting credits and selling. With the former, you keep the account and the liability for that loan. Selling means you transfer the account to somebody else who then has to accept the responsibility for that loan. If the debt was small, you might find somebody who would assume the loan in lieu of payment; that has happened in the past. However, the value vs loan amount doesn't make that work. With renting, you keep the account and the liability for the loan and there is hope, on Wyndham (is the loan with Wyndham?) part that you will pay. Renting credits or points is not available with all other timeshare systems.

No legitimate lawyer can help you exit a timeshare. It's a contract signed, there is no magic wand to make it go away; those exit companies are all scams; stay away. The real question is how will a hit to his credit impact your father. Probably not much. When we are younger, we want good credit to buy a house etc, but he is past that time. And as mentioned above, there have been dozens/hundreds of these type of posts over the years and I have never heard of any liens on a house. Just default and get this weight off your and your father's shoulders and enjoy the time you have left with him.

When the account is paid off you could break it up into smaller accounts and sell those, split it with other family members or just sell it as is. You could hire someone to do this if you can't do this. I think Wyndham could walk you through this.

Bad idea in your situation. Splitting accounts takes forever and you can only do 1 (or 2; not many) per year so you would be paying $11K in dues per year while this spun out. Again, value vs cost isn't there and it's a pain. The transfer department is ridiculously slow and clumsy. Just rent our the credits and default and carry on.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

I believe so. Most posters here are not WM owners and are not familiar with how things work. I haven't done it myself, so am not 100% sure, but I think this is a means utilized to get people current with their loans. Post at wmowners.com in the Rent/Sale section and ask this question. You are more likely to get somebody who has done it to get the loan paid off or rented from somebody in that situation.
Edit: I just realized you never indicated he was behind on the loan; is he? Or is he still paying and just owes the $70K? If the latter, of course he can rent those credits. Most who buy from the developer have a loan that they are paying on and still have full use of their account.

There is a difference between renting credits and selling. With the former, you keep the account and the liability for that loan. Selling means you transfer the account to somebody else who then has to accept the responsibility for that loan. If the debt was small, you might find somebody who would assume the loan in lieu of payment; that has happened in the past. However, the value vs loan amount doesn't make that work. With renting, you keep the account and the liability for the loan and there is hope, on Wyndham (is the loan with Wyndham?) part that you will pay. Renting credits or points is not available with all other timeshare systems.

No legitimate lawyer can help you exit a timeshare. It's a contract signed, there is no magic wand to make it go away; those exit companies are all scams; stay away. The real question is how will a hit to his credit impact your father. Probably not much. When we are younger, we want good credit to buy a house etc, but he is past that time. And as mentioned above, there have been dozens/hundreds of these type of posts over the years and I have never heard of any liens on a house. Just default and get this weight off your and your father's shoulders and enjoy the time you have left with him.


Bad idea in your situation. Splitting accounts takes forever and you can only do 1 (or 2; not many) per year so you would be paying $11K in dues per year while this spun out. Again, value vs cost isn't there and it's a pain. The transfer department is ridiculously slow and clumsy. Just rent our the credits and default and carry on.

The only thing I’ll say about the lawyer issue is that a legitimate lawyer can advise him (should be just the cost of the consultation) as to whether it is possible for a timeshare company to get a lien against his father’s house. I am pretty sure the answer is no, but that might be worth the $100 or so that the consultation would cost for his peace of mind.

 

[jowashington]

I believe so. Most posters here are not WM owners and are not familiar with how things work. I haven't done it myself, so am not 100% sure, but I think this is a means utilized to get people current with their loans. Post at wmowners.com in the Rent/Sale section and ask this question. You are more likely to get somebody who has done it to get the loan paid off or rented from somebody in that situation.
Edit: I just realized you never indicated he was behind on the loan; is he? Or is he still paying and just owes the $70K? If the latter, of course he can rent those credits. Most who buy from the developer have a loan that they are paying on and still have full use of their account.

There is a difference between renting credits and selling. With the former, you keep the account and the liability for that loan. Selling means you transfer the account to somebody else who then has to accept the responsibility for that loan. If the debt was small, you might find somebody who would assume the loan in lieu of payment; that has happened in the past. However, the value vs loan amount doesn't make that work. With renting, you keep the account and the liability for the loan and there is hope, on Wyndham (is the loan with Wyndham?) part that you will pay. Renting credits or points is not available with all other timeshare systems.

No legitimate lawyer can help you exit a timeshare. It's a contract signed, there is no magic wand to make it go away; those exit companies are all scams; stay away. The real question is how will a hit to his credit impact your father. Probably not much. When we are younger, we want good credit to buy a house etc, but he is past that time. And as mentioned above, there have been dozens/hundreds of these type of posts over the years and I have never heard of any liens on a house. Just default and get this weight off your and your father's shoulders and enjoy the time you have left with him.


Bad idea in your situation. Splitting accounts takes forever and you can only do 1 (or 2; not many) per year so you would be paying $11K in dues per year while this spun out. Again, value vs cost isn't there and it's a pain. The transfer department is ridiculously slow and clumsy. Just rent our the credits and default and carry on.

Thanks for this perspective. I have a request on that site for an account.

And yes, I believe the loans are all through Wyndham, but I will double-check.

I'd be checking with an attorney to ensure there wouldn't be a lien, not to help exit. I'm fairly sure that even with my limited knowledge, I now know more than any of the referred attorneys I spoke to about timeshare exits.

My main concern about his credit is how it might impact his ability to rent an assisted-living apartment.

Also, not for nothing, I'm the executor of his will and will have to answer to my siblings for letting his loan default if it comes out of their share.

 

[jowashington]

This is from his WorldMark by Wyndham account. Does this mean his anniversary date is 3/1?

Credits Balance

Available 135,000 Valid thru 02/29/24

Available 135,000 Valid thru 02/28/25

Total available 270,000
Available to borrow 135,000

TravelShare Benefits

Available 135,000 Valid thru 02/29/24
Available 135,000 Valid thru 02/28/25

Total available 270,000
Available to borrow 135,000


Guest certificates
14 Valid thru 02/29/24

Housekeeping services
13 Valid thru 02/29/24
Housekeeping services
13 Valid thru 02/28/25

 

[bnoble]

he doesn't expect to recoup the $70k; he wants to see if he can recoup some of it.

The best way to recoup it is to not pay it. I think the chances of a lien are unlikely. There may be a credit hit but likely relatively minor.

Depending on your relationship with your siblings it may be worth it to run this by them. But if it were my family I’d just defer it to my brother who runs financial point for my mom.

 

[jowashington]

The best way to recoup it is to not pay it. I think the chances of a lien are unlikely. There may be a credit hit but likely relatively minor.

Depending on your relationship with your siblings it may be worth it to run this by them. But if it were my family I’d just defer it to my brother who runs financial point for my mom.

Thanks for your input. I will probably run it past my siblings, but I'll talk to an attorney first. As executor, I'm also wondering if the defaulted loan would need to be paid from the estate and the timing around that.

 

[bnoble]

You never *need* to pay a debt unless a court orders it. Based on reports from others, there is a very small chance that Wyndham (or any timeshare developer) would go to the expense of getting that order. It’s not zero but I know which way I’d bet.

But it is wise to talk with counsel about it first for sure.

 

[djyamyam]

I'm hearing, possibly mistakenly, from other posters that I must pay off the loan to be able to rent out the credits, and just to double triple clarify, you're saying that's not necessary, is that correct?

No. That is not correct.

If you want to sell the entire contract in its entirety to another person, then yes the loan will need to be fully paid off/mostly paid off as the other person would be taking on the liability, if any (ie. the $70K owing).

To rent out the credits on a one-time use basis, his monthly payments needs/account needs to be current. (e.g. if his monthly amount owing for maintenance fees and loan is $1000/mth - just using a number - and that monthly amount hasn't been paid for a few months, then you need to bring everything up to date to make the account "current". At that point, you can rent out the credits as the others have alluded to. Once the credits have rented out, then you can decide what to do.

What you haven't said so far is when the anniversary date of his account is - ie. what month of the year does the new 135K credits get deposited into his account.

When you look at his account on the credit summary page, you'll see the above. In this example, the anniversary is Aug 1 and credits issued the previous year are good up to July 31 two years from the issue date. That will tell you which of the 270K credits currently in his account you need to focus on first. And totally agree with the others that you should head over to wmowners.com for additional learning on what to do at that point to rent out, etc.

 

[vacationtime1]

Definitely talk to a lawyer.

They could theoretically foreclose, sue on the deficiency, and file a lien -- but that is highly unlikely (I've never seen it reported here). But even if they went that route, you could pay off the loan before any lien could be perfected. And all of that is an expensive process that they don't want to do if they can have the credits back to resell to some other unsuspecting victim (they would get those credits back by foreclosure).

Your father was scammed. I don't believe you have any moral obligation to help them collect on a loan that never should have been made.

(Don't let them know your father has money)

 

[jowashington]

No. That is not correct.

If you want to sell the entire contract in its entirety to another person, then yes the loan will need to be fully paid off/mostly paid off as the other person would be taking on the liability, if any (ie. the $70K owing).

To rent out the credits on a one-time use basis, his monthly payments needs/account needs to be current. (e.g. if his monthly amount owing for maintenance fees and loan is $1000/mth - just using a number - and that monthly amount hasn't been paid for a few months, then you need to bring everything up to date to make the account "current". At that point, you can rent out the credits as the others have alluded to. Once the credits have rented out, then you can decide what to do.

What you haven't said so far is when the anniversary date of his account is - ie. what month of the year does the new 135K credits get deposited into his account.
View attachment 78934
When you look at his account on the credit summary page, you'll see the above. In this example, the anniversary is Aug 1 and credits issued the previous year are good up to July 31 two years from the issue date. That will tell you which of the 270K credits currently in his account you need to focus on first. And totally agree with the others that you should head over to wmowners.com for additional learning on what to do at that point to rent out, etc.

Thank you, in another recent post I listed what I think is his anniversary date, 3/1, as well as his other credit totals.

 

[jowashington]

Definitely talk to a lawyer.

They could theoretically foreclose, sue on the deficiency, and file a lien -- but that is highly unlikely (I've never seen it reported here). But even if they went that route, you could pay off the loan before any lien could be perfected. And all of that is an expensive process that they don't want to do if they can have the credits back to resell to some other unsuspecting victim (they would get those credits back by foreclosure).

Your father was scammed. I don't believe you have any moral obligation to help them collect on a loan that never should have been made.

(Don't let them know your father has money)

Thanks for that, when I have spoken to them to get some of the details, I made sure to portray him as an elderly frail and impoverished person.

I didn't realize that they would benefit from having the points back after foreclosure.