I need a guide to help me decide how best to exit

[jowashington]

As a general overview, my elderly (90) dad informed me that he was tens of thousands of dollars in debt to Worldmark by Wyndham for a series of purchases of timeshare points he never used and never will use. He cannot travel, and none of his family members want this debt or to vacation in timeshares. I am his financial POA, he's of sound mind, and I have agreed to try to help him.

To stop the monthly maintenance fees, I want to unload the points as quickly as possible for whatever I can get for them, IF it makes sense to try to do so. My problem is that I'm lost with this whole thing. I'm also trying to run a business, run my own household and oversee his care. I think it's better to just pay off the loan (approx $70k) and be done with it, but he wants me to try to sell points for whatever he could get. IMO, it's mostly to try to save face, he's horrified that he got himself into this situation.

I am extraordinarily good at vetting people and sorting through information, but there is so much information available on this topic and this is not my wheelhouse.

I'd like to first get general opinions about whether trying to sell makes any sense and, if not, what easy-to-understand ways I can use to explain the futility of selling to try to recoup some funds vs. continuing to pay the monthly maintenance fees.

OR, if it does make sense, I'd like to hire a very experienced with this sort of thing guide that I could pay a percentage of the recouped funds to for assisting me - or however compensation is typically provided in this sort of scenario. Don't worry folks, I won't hire or pay anyone without vetting them first or determining the best course of action.

IF there's some third way that makes much more sense than those two options, I'd love to hear about that too.

If I've posted in the wrong area, please let me know. I will be here to answer any questions and provide specifics as needed.
Thank you in advance for any insight you can provide.

 

[TUGBrian]

Welcome to TUG!

Sadly, there is likely no amount of points that would fetch anywhere near 70k on the resale market, so if that is what he owes you are fairly limited on options and none of them good

you cant sell your points with the loan balance still attached, and the points arent worth even a fraction of what is owed. so no...selling makes no sense here.

nor does hiring someone to help you, as anyone worth their salt is going to tell you the same thing and anyone who tells you otherwise is looking to profit from your situation!

so of the 3 exit options available to owners (detailed here: https://tug2.net/timeshare_advice/how-to-get-rid-of-timeshare.html ), given the loan balance your only realistic one is default!

could try to reach out to wyndham and explain your fathers age/situation and they may offer a way to work something out, id at least explore that as a phone call costs you nothing but a few minutes of your time, but I dont give it a very high chance of success

 

[jowashington]

Thank you for your reply, Brian!

To clarify, he doesn't expect to recoup the $70k; he wants to see if he can recoup some of it.

I'm trying to find some easy for him to understand way to grasp that it makes no sense to continue to pay $1k per month (not the exact monthly amount, but close) if he's not going to make at least $10k AND if it's not possible without hours and hours of effort on my part to sell points and handle the paperwork.

I understand from what you've said that paying off the loan would make it possible to sell points. I'd like a better sense of how much he'd likely get by selling the points after he paid off the loan. I'm happy to provide any specifics. I'm assuming his maintenance fees would continue while I sorted out the selling.

I'm concerned that defaulting on the loan would continue the maintenance fee accrual and destroy his credit. He owns his own home and still lives there, but he has Parkinson's and will likely, at minimum, need to rent an apartment or assisted living place within a year or two. He has a pension, gets SS and has some savings - enough to pay this off.

What would you suggest as the best course of action?

 

[VacationForever]

I would strongly suggest that you go over to wmowners.com. It is a site for Worldmark owners, setup by owners and not affliated in anyway with the developer/Wyndham. You need the loan to be paid off before you can sell the contract. There is value, about 10 to 20 cents per point. On the site, you will find a list of trusted brokers who can help you sell the contract if you don't want to do it yourself. But you will find resources to understand more about Worldmark, value, how to sell one-time-use credits or the entire contract. I personally have bought through Mike Dosh from besttimeshare.net (one of the trusted brokers on the site).

wmowners.com site is free to join.

The most important thing is not to pay upfront money to sell your contract, there are lots of scammers out there who will take your money and you are still left with the timeshare.

 

[jowashington]

Thank you. Are credits = points? If not, how do I tell how many points he has?

He has:

Credits available
270,000

Credits available to borrow
135,000

 

[DeniseM]

If it were me, I'd get him into assisted living now, and then have him default on the loan. Don't give Wyndham his new contact info. He was CLEARLY taken advantage of, and should feel no remorse about this. Many assisted living facilities have a range of care, so he could start off in a Sr. Apt. and move to more care, as needed. It might be worth $100 bucks to have an attorney write a sternly worded letter to Wyndham about them defrauding a senior citizen, and stating that he no longer can or will pay another cent.

 

[TUGBrian]

270,000 worldmark points? annually? or just in the account?

that would be perhaps the largest ownership ive ever heard of!

as an example, here is a 100k annual credit ownership that sold on ebay recently for just under 7k

WorldMark by Wyndham - 103,000 Credits | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for WorldMark by Wyndham - 103,000 Credits at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

the problem is that even if you were to fetch 7k for it, youd have to PAY the balance of 70k. that is just throwing away 63 thousand dollars?

 

[jowashington]

Thank you. Are credits = points? If not, how do I tell how many points he has?

He has:

Credits available
270,000

Credits available to borrow
135,000

If it were me, I'd get him into assisted living now, and then have him default on the loan. Don't give Wyndham his new contact info. He was CLEARLY taken advantage of, and should feel no remorse about this. Many assisted living facilities have a range of care, so he could start off in a Sr. Apt. and move to more care, as needed. It might be worth $100 bucks to have an attorney write a sternly worded letter to Wyndham about them defrauding a senior citizen, and stating that he no longer can or will pay another cent.

He's completely determined to stay in his home as long as possible, but you've got me thinking if it might make sense for him to continue to pay off the loan and pay the monthly maintenance fees for another few years until he must move and then default. I'm concerned if his family members would be gone after for the defaulted loan.

 

[TUGBrian]

I'm concerned if his family members would be gone after for the defaulted loan.

are they listed as owners?

 

[jowashington]

270,000 worldmark points? annually? or just in the account?

that would be perhaps the largest ownership ive ever heard of!

as an example, here is a 100k annual credit ownership that sold on ebay recently for just under 7k



the problem is that even if you were to fetch 7k for it, youd have to PAY the balance of 70k. that is just throwing away 63 thousand dollars?

Total. Where would I find the annual point accrual, if there is one?

I'm unable to open the link.

RE: $63k. I see what you're saying. My main concern is if his credit became too damaged to be a candidate for an assisted living arrangement. I don't know if I should be $63k concerned about it though. He'd have that cash to pay rent in advance, if it came to that, at least at this point.

 

[jowashington]

are they listed as owners?

No. Not that I'm aware of.

 

[DeniseM]

Only people listed on the deed of ownership will be responsible for any ongoing payments. Look at it this way: Your dad was scammed - he should not continue paying for the scam.

 

[VacationForever]

You can sell the 270K one-time use credits for about 8 to 9 cents a point currently. To offload quickly, you can sell one-time use at 8 cents a point, which will net $21,600. No kidding. Strip the contract, i.e., sell the one time use credit, and then let it go to default. If the anniversary month is coming soon, then let the anniversary month come around, and sell the other 135K credits for $10,800 before letting it go to default. You can sell at wmowners.com.

 

[TUGBrian]

assuming the account is still current that is!

 

[jowashington]

Only people listed on the deed of ownership will be responsible for any ongoing payments. Look at it this way: Your dad was scammed - he should not continue paying for the scam.

What would WM do if he just stopped paying? Daily threatening calls to him? Worse? Any idea how bad the credit hit would be?

 

[jowashington]

You can sell the 270K one-time use credits for about 8 to 9 cents a point currently. To offload quickly, you can sell one-time use at 8 cents a point, which will net $21,600. No kidding. If the anniversary month is coming soon, then let the anniversary month come around, and sell the other 135K credits for $10,800 before letting it go to default.

Strip the contract, i.e., sell the one time use credit, and then let it go to default.

Could you please explain this in more detail? I don't speak Worldmark.

 

[DeniseM]

They will call and send letters for awhile, and then give up and foreclose. You should do everything possible to make sure they don't have his contact info. Maybe change his contact info to a PO Box and burner phone, and then have him default.

 

[VacationForever]

Strip the contract, i.e., sell the one time use credit, and then let it go to default.

Could you please explain this in more detail? I don't speak Worldmark.

Sell the one-time use credits to other owners who need the credits to make reservation. That's how you can recoop the maintenance fees that your father has been paying and not using. Do yourself a favor and go over to wmowners.com and read up how it works.

Default means to stop making payments to Wyndham.

 

[jowashington]

They will call and send letters for awhile, and then give up and foreclose. You should do everything possible to make sure they don't have his contact info. Maybe change his contact info to a PO Box and burner phone, and then have him default.

It feels unlikely that they'd stop bombing his home address even with a PO Box change, but I like the idea of that. Blocking the numbers on his phone seems easier than going to a burner phone, but I will definitely consider that if that's what the decision ends up being.

 

[jrb916]

If there are 135000 credits to borrow, it appears to be a 135000 credit account. The 270k current credit seem to support that since he hadn’t used it (2 years of credits).

You’ve gotten some good advise & can get more on wmowners.com site.

 

[DeniseM]

Jo - I am not sure if you have ever been to a timeshare sales presentation, but they are high pressure and very dishonest. They do not care if the potential buyer is elderly, sick, or broke, they say whatever it takes to make a sale - including blatant lying. So, when I say your dad was scammed, that's not an exaggeration. Lots of people cannot stand up to these high pressure tactics, so your dad is among good company, which is why he should not fee bad about taking care of himself in the situation he is in.

 

[jowashington]

Thank you for that, both my dad and I are clear that he was scammed. I recognized it immediately, and it took a minute but he finally got it. John Oliver's peace on it was how he finally grasped what was happening. He felt terrible, which of course made me feel terrible on his behalf .

If it turns out that defaulting on the loan and avoiding the collection attempts is the best financial decision, then that's what I'll do. I have no concerns for WorldMark or their scams.

I am primarily interested in minimizing the financial impact to him, including his credit. I'm willing to do a reasonable amount of work, if it seems worth it.

As his POA, I have been the one interacting with them, and I'm not super crazy about the possible blowback on me by WM either, but that's the secondary interest.

Mostly, I want this sorted and gone from my father's concerns with as little damage as possible. He's got enough to worry about.

 

[jowashington]

Sell the one-time use credits to other owners who need the credits to make reservation. That's how you can recoop the maintenance fees that your father has been paying and not using. Do yourself a favor and go over to wmowners.com and read up how it works.

Default means to stop making payments to Wyndham.

Thank you, I will read the site you linked in the morning.

It sounds like you're saying I could sell his credits, even without paying off the loan? That option hadn't occurred to me. I thought I had to pay it off before I could sell it.

 

[jowashington]

They will call and send letters for awhile, and then give up and foreclose. You should do everything possible to make sure they don't have his contact info. Maybe change his contact info to a PO Box and burner phone, and then have him default.

I know it might be hard to answer this question, but what do you think the chances are of them putting a lien on his house?

 

[DeniseM]

You would really be "renting" the credits, not transfering ownership, but it's definitely worth looking into. Not only did Wyndham lie to your dad, but they will lie to you too, and say anything they can think of to make you think you are financially responsible - don't fall for it, you aren't.

I have never heard of a lien being filed, but I am not an attorney, I'm just someone who has heard a lot of these stories over the years.