Feedback please! (bad rental?)

[aliikai2]

Please don't ever respond to one of our ads

No Matter how you attempt to spin this, you agreed to rent for $800, you paid $400 as per redweek which is a non-refundable deposit, broke your foot and cancelled.

Your Philadelphia Lawyer relatives are ignoring the facts or possibly they aren't hearing the entire story.

Your intent to rent was clear, the fact that you were ignorant of the sellers conditions doesn't relieve you of your responsibility.

If the seller offered you any type of a refund it was in the interest of fairness, because she was in no way liable to refund you anything.

Karma is a powerful force, and messing with it for a couple of hundred dollars isn't very bright.

jmho,

Greg

Well! Here's the follow up to the situation.

I have been negotiating for several days with the seller, who has provided some...let's just call them "interesting" facts here.

As a matter of course, I contacted my father in law and brother in law, who are both Pennsylvania attorneys. This was only AFTER the seller threatened with a lawyer and gave me the address of said attorney. I get free legal advice from those people, but I don't throw out there that I "have attorneys" in my family. I'm not like that.

The primary situation here is that the seller is not entitled to retain monies when there is no agreement (either email, written, or verbal) for liquidated damages. I realize many of you charge up front, in full, and provide no refunds for rentals, and as long as your renters agree to this up front, best of luck to you.

However, when a buyer does NOT agree, it is not 'assumed' or 'standard practice' or anything like that. You may think so, but it's not. Until there is an agreement between the parties, it is simply not enforceable.

After much discussion, I asked for proof that the Seller suffered a loss. How do I know s/he is not just claiming she rented for less and ultimately rented for the same amount - or more? A rental agreement does not provide that information. A rental agreement provides information about terms and length of stay. Cancelled checks, money orders, or verified paypal information that show the amount paid to the seller, do.

When I asked for this information, the seller told me she would not provide this. Again: The seller is NOT ENTITLED to retain anything for the 'loss' they may have suffered unless there is an AGREEMENT that allows this. But I was willing to at least evaluate the information and see if we could reach a fair solution based upon the facts, not just what the seller was telling me.

The unit was re-rented and the seller was apparently made whole. But the seller continues to keep our cash, without anything in writing stating why. I like what Denise told me at one point; she said (not exactly quoting, but...) "I'd say, 'Well, if you can't complete the rental, then I am keeping this money...are you still wanting to cancel?' " At least then I WOULD HAVE KNOWN!! Frankly, if I knew I was going to eat the entire thing, I would have called my inlaws or sister and seen if they had wanted the unit. And answering "Oh it's always that way" or "You should have known" are not acceptable defenses. Sorry. That's why you sign agreements - so that everyone knows everything they need to.

I have absolutely NO idea where the $178 figure came from - I really don't. I can't substantiate it. Taking a partial settlement with no understanding as to why just doesn't cut it for me. That's what they make small claims court for. I live in PA and she lives in Maryland from what I understand - it's not a far drive.

Mods can prove where people's IP comes from. I'm at home, btw. Not just some scam to back out, as some have suggested; I have a doctor's report that I was willing to provide to prove the situation, she didn't want it. I offered my phone number several times, she didn't want it until AFTER she started talking about attorneys. Then she offered me a phone number and I'm sorry, but once someone starts talking attorneys, it's not wise to speak by phone. I didn't think we were "there yet", but she brought it there. Okay, fine.

Bottom line is that I have wasted numerous hours of my life on this nonsense, and what I have from the seller is: 1. No confirmation that this reservation was EVER in my name; 2. A promise on July 18th via email that s/he would refund me and (her words) "let paypal do their job" - which was misleading 3. Several compromises that I have offered that have been refused and finally 4. Refusal to provide documents that support her claim of a loss.

Courts look for agreements (either verbal, written, or even in email). Courts look for statements like "non refundable" or any information that supports a seller's contention that an item's deposit or payment would not be refunded. I'm sure many of you at least mention this in emails or have your renters sign agreements which state this. She did not. Then she re-rented and keeps our cash anyway; never gave us a chance to find a renter for her, never transferred the item into our name.

I'm not engaging in an argument, but I wanted to update.

 

[ace2000]

From what I can tell the actual dollar value currently in contention is $122. From the original $400 deposit paid by OP, she wants $300 refunded and yumdrey offered her $178. Though I understand that the source of the conflict are the principles of decency and integrity on both sides, it seems a fairly paltry sum to lose sleep over, let alone calling in attorneys.

Also, I saw above that yumdrey offered to show her new rental agreement to Jennifer detailing how she rented for a lower amount, and asserts that she did change the week to Jennifer's name.

Jennifer equally denies that either of the above are true.

When you don't even have a confirmed set of facts to deal with, all that's left is the credibility of each poster.

Jennifer wanted more proof than a rental agreement. She wanted some sort of financial documentation as proof. yumdrey offered her the rental agreement. I don't think there is a discrepancy in that.

The bottom line is Jennifer paid a $400 deposit. Then she backed out the next day. yumdrey offered her a $178 refund as a good faith gesture... Jennifer wanted more than that. Jennifer is making the case that since she didn't sign anything, she should get her refund.

Based on that summary, everyone can figure out which side they're on. To me a deposit is a deposit. If I back out of the deal, I lose it.

 

[yumdrey]

From what I can tell the actual dollar value currently in contention is $122. From the original $400 deposit paid by OP, she wants $300 refunded and yumdrey offered her $178. Though I understand that the source of the conflict are the principles of decency and integrity on both sides, it seems a fairly paltry sum to lose sleep over, let alone calling in attorneys.

Also, I saw above that yumdrey offered to show her new rental agreement to Jennifer detailing how she rented for a lower amount, and asserts that she did change the week to Jennifer's name.

Jennifer equally denies that either of the above are true.

When you don't even have a confirmed set of facts to deal with, all that's left is the credibility of each poster.

No, I didn't change reservation into OP's name, she didn't sign on rental agreement or paid final balance yet. Usually, after rentee pay the deposit and sign on agreement, I change the reservation and get final payment.
However, I had a valid reservation which I showed OP before she paid deposit.
I was following the track, OP broke the agreement.
OP offered me a payterm through e-mail, and she didn't follow.

I offered OP to show rental agreement, but OP asked more (cancelled check, etc...). I didn't want to send all those papers to OP which has new renter's personal info and my personal info too.
So I told OP to claim this higher investigation, I feel better if I send these personal papers to paypal than to an individual.
Now OP requested paypal's investigation, and I am sending all e-mail communications and other info to paypal.
I will update about this, it is very interesting to me too.

 

[hellolani]

So I'd like to know that if financial proof was offered to Jennifer that the week was re-rented for less and that $178 is in fact the correct difference to be returned to her, would she accept that as fair?

The tone of her posts suggests that she would not.

Everyone agrees that the problem is that there is no signed rental agreement with clear terms.

I think the problem with Jennifer's argument is that she argues that the reasonable default in the absence of an agreement is a 75% refund of her deposit, based on the rental being a very limited time off the market, and calling in the sympathy vote for her leg. The popular sentiment on this board seems to be that her reasonable default is not reasonable.

It doesn't help the optics on her side that an accomodation was offered in the partial refund, and rejected for the difference of $128.

Jennifer wanted more proof than a rental agreement. She wanted some sort of financial documentation as proof. yumdrey offered her the rental agreement. I don't think there is a discrepancy in that.

The bottom line is Jennifer paid a $400 deposit. Then she backed out the next day. yumdrey offered her a $178 refund as a good faith gesture... Jennifer wanted more than that. Jennifer is making the case that since she didn't sign anything, she should get her refund.

Based on that summary, everyone can figure out which side they're on. To me a deposit is a deposit. If I back out of the deal, I lose it.

 

[stevedmatt]

After hearing from both sides, I feel I would still rent from yumdrey. I would ask for specific terms, as I always do, before sending a deposit.

As stated, the small difference in money is hardly worth the fight at this point. I have a feeling Jennifer will now accept nothing less than a full refund. I do not agree with her stance basically because of standard practices, but if she never had a verbal agreement that there are no refunds, she may have an argument. Is it worth it to fight for such a small amount? Not for me. I'd take the $178 and be content.

 

[DeniseM]

Hi yumdrey - I'm still a little confused about the figures.

You were going to rent to Jennifer for $800 - correct?

How much did you rent it for, when you rented the week to the second renter?

 

[rickandcindy23]

Like stevedmatt, I would rent from Yumdrey; however, I wouldn't rent to Foreverloves.

Our daughter sends a contract immediately with her small rental biz; the contract goes to the prospective renter at the moment of the inquiry, and she has proof in her outbox that it was sent. It's probably not a bad idea for all of us. I am guilty of renting some of my weeks without a contract, and I have had zero problems, but this one has me thinking how naive I have been.

 

[aliikai2]

I used to use a contract

But since I collect 100% upfront I haven't used one in the last few years.
I explain that we have no cancellation policy, that if they are concerned they should buy a 3rd party trip insurance from someone like insuremytrip.com

That normally eliminates the tire kickers, and flakes that expect you to give a refund at short notice. At least for us it does.
I have now added this to the front page of our website to give notice to the world

fwiw,

Greg

Like stevedmatt, I would rent from Yumdrey; however, I wouldn't rent to Foreverloves.

Our daughter sends a contract immediately with her small rental biz; the contract goes to the prospective renter at the moment of the inquiry, and she has proof in her outbox that it was sent. It's probably not a bad idea for all of us. I am guilty of renting some of my weeks without a contract, and I have had zero problems, but this one has me thinking how naive I have been.

 

[DeniseM]

The sad thing is that I think Jennifer and yumdrey are both nice people, that had good intentions and, most, if not all of the problems and misunderstandings could have been avoided, if there had been clear communication before, during, and after this transaction. I hope they can work things out and find a solution that is satisfactory for both of them.

I have also tweaked my rental terms a bit because of what I learned from this thread.

 

[yumdrey]

Hi yumdrey - I'm still a little confused about the figures.

You were going to rent to Jennifer for $800 - correct?

How much did you rent it for, when you rented the week to the second renter?

Hi Denise,
OP and I agreed for $1,010. OP should have paid $800 to me, and she also had to pay the resort $210 which is an upgrade fee ($30 per night) at check-out. OP offered me a deposit of $400 to hold this week, and AFTER the reservation changed to her name, she would pay me the balance ($400).
To a new buyer, I rented it for $800 and I called the resort and paid an upgrade fee with my credit card when I changed a reservation into a new rentee's name. So I had $210 loss from her cancellation.
That's why I offered $178 ($190 minus paypal fee) refund to OP which she didn't accept.

 

[ace2000]

The sad thing is that I think Jennifer and yumdrey are both nice people, that had good intentions and, most, if not all of the problems and misunderstandings could have been avoided, if there had been clear communication before, during, and after this transaction. I hope they can work things out and find a solution that is satisfactory for both of them.

I have also tweaked my rental terms a bit because of what I learned from this thread.

Denise, can you share exactly what you believe yumdrey did wrong? I guess I've been missing your perspective in this whole thread. I sit here and think she actually did more and communicated more than I would have.

I don't think they're both nice people... one of these two is a shark in sheep's clothing... and I'll leave it at that.

 

[DeniseM]

I don't think yumdrey did anything "wrong." As I said, I think all the problems in this rental are due to poor communication.

This is what I would recommend to anyone who rents their timeshare:

1. Have clear cut rental terms - in writing.
2. Be very clear about your cancellation policy - in writing.
3. Send the rental terms to the renter before you accept a deposit and ask them to agree to them. (Or use a contract if you prefer.)
4. If the renter asks to get out of the rental, know in advance what your policy is, and stick to it.

As an owner, I have been in this situation myself. I have a clear cut no cancellation policy and it's in my Ad, my emails, and on my Paypal invoices. I once had a renter who wanted to back out due to a family emergency, and I already knew what my policy was: I responded, "I have a no cancellation policy that you agreed to. However, if I can find a renter, I will refund your payment, minus the Paypal fees." We both got lucky, and I got another renter the next day.

 

[heathpack]

Hi Denise,
OP and I agreed for $1,010. OP should have paid $800 to me, and she also had to pay the resort $210 which is an upgrade fee ($30 per night) at check-out. OP offered me a deposit of $400 to hold this week, and AFTER the reservation changed to her name, she would pay me the balance ($400).
To a new buyer, I rented it for $800 and I called the resort and paid an upgrade fee with my credit card when I changed a reservation into a new rentee's name. So I had $210 loss from her cancellation.
That's why I offered $178 ($190 minus paypal fee) refund to OP which she didn't accept.

If your loss was $210, why are you feeling the OP is entitled to her deposit back except for $190 dollars (less PayPal fee)? Why not $210 less PayPal fees?

I remain very confused.

 

[yumdrey]

If your loss was $210, why are you feeling the OP is entitled to her deposit back except for $190 dollars (less PayPal fee)? Why not $210 less PayPal fees?

I remain very confused.

My loss is $210.
OP paid $400 as a deposit.
So $400 - $210 = $190
paypal fee is approx. $12.
That's why I offered $178.

 

[heathpack]

My loss is $210.
OP paid $400 as a deposit.
So $400 - $210 = $190
paypal fee is approx. $12.
That's why I offered $178.

Oh NOW that makes sense.

H

 

[yumdrey]

I responded, "I have a no cancellation policy that you agreed to. However, if I can find a renter, I will refund your payment, minus the Paypal fees." We both got lucky, and I got another renter the next day.

That's what I did exactly. I found a new renter who would love to pay $800 and OP was not happy for my offer.
In my rental agreement, it clearly says that deposit is not refundable.
However, she wanted to back out before I sent an agreement and she was insisting a refund (first for $400 and then for $300) and gave me no space to deal.
I know it is a kind of funny that both parties are upset for just around $100 margin, but after I have read her twisted stories and lies here, it made me firm to go "hard way".

 

[DeniseM]

yumdrey - I'd recommend that you send your renters your rental terms BEFORE you accept payment. You can just email them and ask the renter to agree to them. If you don't tell the renter the rental terms before you accept their money, you aren't giving them a chance to decide if they agree to them or not.

 

[DeniseM]

Folks - I have deleted a post from this thread. Let's remember the TUG rule of courtesy please. Angry posts and name calling from by standers is not appropriate.

 

[yumdrey]

yumdrey - I'd recommend that you send your renters your rental terms BEFORE you accept payment. You can just email them and ask the renter to agree to them. If you don't tell the renter the rental terms before you accept their money, you aren't giving them a chance to decide if they agree to them or not.

Denice,
It was a rentee who offered me a payterm. She offered "how I would like to pay and proceed this rental", and I agreed and started the process.
Usually, I ask renter to sign on paper before they make a deposit, but it was only 2 weeks before check-in and I accepted her payment term.
I know it is my bad, should have done what I usually did.
In worst case, I will lose $400 (or lose $210, because I offered $178 refund to OP already), I can live with that, but I didn't like she twisted a whole story here and made me a scammer.

 

[timeflies]

I agree with the following:

I would rent from Yumdrey; however, I wouldn't rent to Foreverloves.


I may be old school but when you make a deal and give your word it is the same as signing a contract.

 

[DeniseM]

As the owner, for your own protection, you need to set the rental terms, and control the transaction. You don't necessarily have to use a contract upfront - but have written rental terms that you can send to the renter, for your own protection. That will avoid a lot of confusion.

 

[sungandjudy]

I agree with the following:

I would rent from Yumdrey; however, I wouldn't rent to Foreverloves.


I may be old school but when you make a deal and give your word it is the same as signing a contract.

Ditto. To me, when you agreed to rent and then SEND a deposit, your intentions are clear. You have entered into rental agreement. Why would you send money otherwise?

 

[ampaholic]

Hi Denise,
OP and I agreed for $1,010. OP should have paid $800 to me, and she also had to pay the resort $210 which is an upgrade fee ($30 per night) at check-out. OP offered me a deposit of $400 to hold this week, and AFTER the reservation changed to her name, she would pay me the balance ($400).
To a new buyer, I rented it for $800 and I called the resort and paid an upgrade fee with my credit card when I changed a reservation into a new rentee's name. So I had $210 loss from her cancellation.
That's why I offered $178 ($190 minus paypal fee) refund to OP which she didn't accept.

So $1010 - $800 it was re-rented for = $210 still owed to rentor.

$400 deposit (can't see it as anything else) - $210 = $190 - 12 paypal costs

= Refund of $178.

foreverloves should be glad to get that back and move on.

Judge Judy would very likely award the whole $400 to Yumdrey as liquidated damages.

I can only imagine what Judge Judy would rip out of the "Philly Lawyers" if they showed up (I'm sure it would be amusing )

 

[stevedmatt]

Ditto. To me, when you agreed to rent and then SEND a deposit, your intentions are clear. You have entered into rental agreement. Why would you send money otherwise?

Judge Judy would very likely award the whole $400 to Yumdrey as liquidated damages.

I can only imagine what Judge Judy would rip out of the "Philly Lawyers" if they showed up (I'm sure it would be amusing )

I still believe there was not a verbal agreement about a "no cancellation policy". Yumdrey even stated that the renter set the pay terms. As a renter, I doubt she said "I know I can't cancel". Yumdrey also said she never actually sent the agreement terms.

Because of it being commonplace around TUG that there are no refunds, I agree that the $178 should be accepted and end this ordeal, but I'm not so sure that a judge would feel the same way with the information we have been provided with at this point.

 

[sungandjudy]

I still believe there was not a verbal agreement about a "no cancellation policy". Yumdrey even stated that the renter set the pay terms. As a renter, I doubt she said "I know I can't cancel". Yumdrey also said she never actually sent the agreement terms.

Because of it being commonplace around TUG that there are no refunds, I agree that the $178 should be accepted and end this ordeal, but I'm not so sure that a judge would feel the same way with the information we have been provided with at this point.

Since she was TUG member for a year and contributed numerous posts, I think she knows the accepted rental terms for a timeshare. Can she argue as you posted and may be win at court? Sure! Does that make it right? Not to me. Let's just leave at that....