Expert report predicts up to two more years of pandemic misery

[Pathways]

This thing is not close to being over. I'd advise you to man up, prepare for this to last a while, and get used to your new reality

Agree 100%. Based on the medical 'experts', this virus will never go away. I won't put it quite as bluntly as you, but yes, you can stay home if you want for the next two plus years, or just get used to the new reality. Social distancing in public is here to stay, masks, fewer tables in restaurants, and so on.

I will never second guess those who choose to stay sheltered, I think each person needs to follow what they feel is best for them. That's what freedom is all about.

 

[Pathways]

Nobody's asking us to send our children into battle

Actually, I stole some of my comments directly from a group of 85+ yo men talking at a local senior facility. They are not allowed to leave their rooms, but still have chat available. They are very vocal with the comparisons. (A number of covid deaths there has not seemed to change their opinion)

 

[cman]

I will never second guess those who choose to stay sheltered, I think each person needs to follow what they feel is best for them. That's what freedom is all about.

It's not about doing, "what's best for them", it's about doing what's best for our country. SIP is as much about the protection of others as it about self preservation. Expand your thinking and try taking a more altruistic view.

 

[MrockStar]

better plus up the bread and soup lines it's going to be a long two years.

 

[CO skier]

better plus up the bread and soup lines it's going to be a long two years.

What do you mean? Have you not heard? Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve have re-defined economics. Just drop 3 trillion dollars from helicopters, then more trillions as needed.

There will be no Great Depression II, there will be no Great Recession II.

Yeah, right. We will see. People! look around you. The economy is at a standstill for 8 weeks with little relief in sight. "Re-openings" have little to offer for months.

How can this not result in mega-soup-lines?

Can we start talking about flattening the negative economic curve that is a greater threat to American society than what is proving to be just another viral curve?

 

[Sandi Bo]

I sure do appreciate the opinions I can read here on TUG, and the ability for "all sides" to contribute.

My thoughts are we need to figure out how to live with this (while at the time we are social distancing). Until we have a vaccine, and it's going to be a while, things cannot go back to normal (unless we are willing to sacrifice many lives). I plan to continue to be extremely cautious, even though Nebraska is opening some things up on May 4th. I won't be at the beauty parlor or eating out or shopping for anything more than I have to. We may relax our social distancing slightly, but we will limit who we socialize with (other immediate family that we know are also being careful).

I am frustrated that here we are, months into this and we still have PPE shortages, crappy testing availability, we're still trying to figure out exactly how this virus spreads (is it air borne or droplet, how long does it live), and inconsistent enforcement of practices to reduce the spread.

I am still sewing masks for the local hospital, yet read in the paper we have ample supply. The hospitals preserve the PPE, at least partially because the CDC has lowered the standards - our healthcare providers are wearing the same masks, all day, for several days. Gowns used to be changed between patient rooms, now are worn until they have to be changed. Hospital beds are available because we've cancelled all elective surgery (that's any non-emergency surgery, including for cancer, just sounds nicer to say elective).

I am concerned about the economic repercussions of all this, money doesn't come out of thin air. Worried about those without jobs and what the next months/year or two will bring. But I don't think this is 'just another viral curve'. Talk to health care professionals, they are seeing first hand how awful this virus is. We can't just pretend it's not there, that's incredibly unfair to the health care professionals who will have to continue to risk their lives until things are under control.

 

[MrockStar]

Dude, that's a little over dramatic. Nobody's asking us to send our children into battle. They're just asking that we shelter in place, and only travel when it's essential. Our parents would not be whining about this the way that some of you are. Given the choice between going to war, and sheltering in place, it would be an easy decision for them.

This thing is not close to being over. I'd advise you to man up, prepare for this to last a while, and get used to your new reality.

That's the same thing they said to the small farmers when the Communists took control of their farms and "Get used to your new reality" Only in Russian of course. :-\

 

[WVBaker]

It's not about doing, "what's best for them", it's about doing what's best for our country. SIP is as much about the protection of others as it about self preservation. Expand your thinking and try taking a more altruistic view.

Perhaps those clamoring for shelter in place restrictions should lock themselves in their own homes and stop trying to impose more government control over what everyone else is doing. Many in our workforce don't have the luxury of clocking in on their laptops at home. I find myself not fearing the coronavirus, but fearing the freedoms we have lost and will continue to lose, in determining how to handle the virus. Both economic freedoms, as well as, civil liberties. For those who are not willing to face this attacker, let them shelter in place. But for the less fearful who don't wish to cower in their homes, open up the country, which should have never been shut down.

Many people are losing their jobs and their health insurance, and many are not able to pay the rent. And all of this is being done because "medical experts" say we will be better off if we do it. Many of us recall "The Reagan Revolution". It argued that the government gets in the way of the "magic of the free market," and that when we allow those with capital to do what they want, we all live better. Many may remember the term "nanny state" to describe government as a force that thinks it knows better than we do about how we should live, and it argues that we're better off without its interventions. This view of freedom insists that we are free from social forces that limit our human development.

With these shelter-in-place orders, the government deprives us of our freedom to go out, socialize, and work as we want, with the alleged aim of reducing the spread of the virus, and thereby possibly increasing the likelihood we each will have the freedom to continue living. Call it selfish if you wish, but understand this. I will never "expand" my thinking to agree with what you see as right. As President Roosevelt once said, “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”

 

[Cornell]

Perhaps those clamoring for shelter in place restrictions should lock themselves in their own homes and stop trying to impose more government control over what everyone else is doing. Many in our workforce don't have the luxury of clocking in on their laptops at home. I find myself not fearing the coronavirus, but fearing the freedoms we have lost and will continue to lose, in determining how to handle the virus. Both economic freedoms, as well as, civil liberties. For those who are not willing to face this attacker, let them shelter in place. But for the less fearful who don't wish to cower in their homes, open up the country, which should have never been shut down.

Many people are losing their jobs and their health insurance, and many are not able to pay the rent. And all of this is being done because "medical experts" say we will be better off if we do it. [Some of the more political comment redacted]


With these shelter-in-place orders, the government deprives us of our freedom to go out, socialize, and work as we want, with the alleged aim of reducing the spread of the virus, and thereby possibly increasing the likelihood we each will have the freedom to continue living. Call it selfish if you wish, but understand this. I will never "expand" my thinking to agree with what you see as right. As President Roosevelt once said, “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”

I could not agree with you more. [Comment about moderation redacted]

 

[Cornell]

@WVBaker Building on this a bit...

Where I live, I belong to several suburban Facebook groups. I have watched the discussions morph , as the weeks have gone on along these lines:

People angry that there were groups playing in the park, so call the police on them
People angry that kids using playground equipment
People upset that they saw people going to the store to purchase only a handful of items (clearly a" non-essential trip")
Anger at seeing children at the grocery store
Neighbors upset b/c they saw someone next door who didn't live at that household
Anger at those who aren't wearing masks
Now it's anger at grocery store shoppers that aren't following the arrows in the correct up/down configuration in the store.

In my observation, the people not following "all fo the rules" are the minority of the population. The vast majority are doing the best they can , with the realities of their own personal lives, with this entire thing.

Getting angry / upset at this minority seems like a waste of energy and emotion -- as there will always be some who aren't going to comply. Let it go.

 

[WVBaker]

Lol !!
many of the people who say they are deprived of "freedom" wear a certain hat

Well, well, well, Bret, always a pleasure. Another thoroughly thought out, informative post I see. I'm sure the "report" button is calling out to you.

 

[Cornell]

I'm going to share some personal things about my life with TUG. I do this b/c it offers up a different perspective on some of the fear & anxiety that people are suffering from right now, including me. I offer this up not to garner sympathy or pity, but to "Expand your thinking and try taking a more altruistic view."

During the '08 recession by husband at the time lost his job. My daughter was young (preschool). That began a nightmare, downward spiral at our house. My husband was at home all of the time. Became a raging , out-of-control, abusive addict. I lived the type of life where I had a duffel bag packed & ready to go (hidden under my bed b/c I had to hide from my ex) for me and my daughter -- in case we needed to flee in the middle of the night. I also had a key to my neighbor's house so we had somewhere safe to go if needed. I had my daughter's passport hidden from my ex - that's how scary it was.

I share this because back then , I did my best to shield my daughter (and me) by leaving the house. I tried to preserve some level of normalcy and safety by going to parks, museums, the library, the pool, going out on errands etc. I'm now really bothered now with current situation b/c people living like this have nowhere to escape to. I cannot imagine how I would have survived if conditions were like that for me in '08 era. I barely survived as it was.

Fast forward, I got an order of protection. I am divorced. I have sole custody of my daughter. Zero child support. And I've had no help from family (eg grandparents, siblings) to help with caring for my daughter over these years while I have worked full time and tried to rebuild my life.

So far, I've been working my usual job. But sure enough on Friday layoffs were announced. I'm safe for now. But it's starting. The anxiety of losing my job (as the sole provider) is off-the-charts.

So please have altruistic views on this topic that go beyond disease prevention. There is a lot more at play here.

 

[Brett]

Well, well, well, Bret, always a pleasure. Another thoroughly thought out, informative post I see. I'm sure the "report" button is calling out to you.

as to you too my sartorial friend

 

[Panina]

I'm going to share some personal things about my life with TUG. I do this b/c it offers up a different perspective on some of the fear & anxiety that people are suffering from right now, including me. I offer this up not to garner sympathy or pity, but to "Expand your thinking and try taking a more altruistic view."

During the '08 recession by husband at the time lost his job. My daughter was young (preschool). That began a nightmare, downward spiral at our house. My husband was at home all of the time. Became a raging , out-of-control, abusive addict. I lived the type of life where I had a duffel bag packed & ready to go (hidden under my bed b/c I had to hide from my ex) for me and my daughter -- in case we needed to flee in the middle of the night. I also had a key to my neighbor's house so we had somewhere safe to go if needed. I had my daughter's passport hidden from my ex - that's how scary it was.

I share this because back then , I did my best to shield my daughter (and me) by leaving the house. I tried to preserve some level of normalcy and safety by going to parks, museums, the library, the pool, going out on errands etc. I'm now really bothered now with current situation b/c people living like this have nowhere to escape to. I cannot imagine how I would have survived if conditions were like that for me in '08 era. I barely survived as it was.

Fast forward, I got an order of protection. I am divorced. I have sole custody of my daughter. Zero child support. And I've had no help from family (eg grandparents, siblings) to help with caring for my daughter over these years while I have worked full time and tried to rebuild my life.

So far, I've been working my usual job. But sure enough on Friday layoffs were announced. I'm safe for now. But it's starting. The anxiety of losing my job (as the sole provider) is off-the-charts.

So please have altruistic views on this topic that go beyond disease prevention. There is a lot more at play here.

Thank you for sharing. I know how hard it is to open up like you just did. Your openness might do more good then you realize giving someone else hope that things can change,

Our life experiences definitely have an impact on how we deal with the situation we are in now. The path you took to safety and building a new life shows you are a survivor and look at the whole picture.

I definitely think it is time to get back to work, even though I know it could cause more deaths, as there needs to be a balance as life exists for the time being.

I do believe we can go back to work and have more outdoor activities and a better lifestyle then locking ourselves in our homes and still limit the spread by doing simple things, such as wearing masks, respecting each other’s space and having good hygiene.

The problem I see now is how lax many are following these simple precautions putting living life better in jeopardy for the many. The few can make it harder for the rest of us later on.

 

[Cornell]

Thank you for sharing. I know how hard it is to open up like you just did. Your openness might do more good then you realize giving someone else hope that things can change,

Our life experiences definitely have an impact on how we deal with the situation we are in now. The path you took to safety and building a new life shows you are a survivor and look at the whole picture.

I definitely think it is time to get back to work, even though I know it could cause more deaths, as there needs to be a balance as life exists for the time being.

I do believe we can go back to work and have more outdoor activities and a better lifestyle then locking ourselves in our homes and still limit the spread by doing simple things, such as wearing masks, respecting each other’s space and having good hygiene.

The problem I see now is how lax many are following these simple precautions putting living life better in jeopardy for the many. The few can make it harder for the rest of us later on.

Panina - thank you. I hope I recall this correctly, but I believe you are a widow. My dear sister became a widow at a young age very suddenly. I see her very concerned about masks, precautions, etc. And I know she has fear / concerns about how someone's world can be up-ended w/medical issues or worse, loss of life w/no warning. It's really hard for everyone. When I find myself bristling at things, I try (not always successfully!) to understand the thought processes and life experiences that we bring into this. It's a continual , daily process that I find I need to remind myself of every day.

 

[pedro47]

I deleted my post because some of the above posts touch my heart.
Because I experienced the pain and suffering first hands with many close friends.

 

[Big Matt]

I find it interesting that experts are everywhere. The problem is that they are essentially weather reporters. They can prognosticate and don't get penalized when their forecasts are incorrect. They are guessing with informed information. There is no predictive model that forecasts new things very well. That's where we are. My biggest pet peeve is that everything is all or nothing. There's no in between. The problem is that most of it is "in between". Politically, I'm a Libertarian so I'm happy that the states are in charge of the decisions for the most part. Now it is starting to flow down to the municipalities. What makes sense in New York City may not be a fit for small town USA.

 

[Panina]

Panina - thank you. I hope I recall this correctly, but I believe you are a widow. My dear sister became a widow at a young age very suddenly. I see her very concerned about masks, precautions, etc. And I know she has fear / concerns about how someone's world can be up-ended w/medical issues or worse, loss of life w/no warning. It's really hard for everyone. When I find myself bristling at things, I try (not always successfully!) to understand the thought processes and life experiences that we bring into this. It's a continual , daily process that I find I need to remind myself of every day.

Yes I lost my husband young. It shaped me tremendously with my outlook. It also made me stronger and independent.

What really has a big impact on my views with this virus are the stories I heard from my dad about their survival during WWII and how he perceived life afterwards. He was very selective and heroic in the path he took. He saw the big picture. He always said it is easier to find solutions if you open your eyes and see it from every angle. To me that is not all or nothing, it is a collective gathering of facts and finding a compromise in solutions.

 

[Cornell]

@Panina My sister , too, is strong & independent. She has helped me though my own struggles greatly. In fact I'm meeting up with her soon halfway between our homes. To take a walk & enjoy the sun.

 

[Pathways]

Talk to health care professionals, they are seeing first hand how awful this virus is. We can't just pretend it's not there, that's incredibly unfair to the health care professionals who will have to continue to risk their lives until things are under control.

My DW and I both work in healthcare. She is the one who has experienced the passing of people close to her. (and staff infected) We are both 'at-risk' due to our age, and myself b/c of a previous health issue. Most of our friends and a few relatives work in/around healthcare. None of us has missed a day of work (in fact she usually works a couple of hours even on her 'day off') or a paycheck, knock on wood.

I have two friends who left their positions b/c they were too concerned about the exposure and taking it home. I just got back the results of my second test. (still neg.)

But we all see the pain of those unemployed who will lose their transportation and their home/apartment as soon as the moratorium on evictions is over.
The elderly my wife works with talk about the great depression b/c they or their parents lived it. They are scared for their children and grandchildren economically more than they are of the virus.

Despite all of the above, virtually everyone I know is vocal against the shutdown. This is a huge country. Certain areas MUST respond with action like we have taken. But in other areas it is way past time. Most of us agreed with the first two weeks. But as we learn more about how this virus works, we adjust and move on. If the death rate was 15 or 20% of the population, we would take a different tact.

I plan to continue to be extremely cautious, even though Nebraska is opening some things up on May 4th. I won't be at the beauty parlor or eating out or shopping for anything more than I have to. We may relax our social distancing slightly, but we will limit who we socialize with (other immediate family that we know are also being careful).

Even though the consensus here in flyover country is we need to move on, I have yet to hear anyone who wasn't respectful and supportive to those who choose to shelter. It's a personal decision that should be driven by our own research, knowledge, and circumstances. (Or at least it should be)

 

[WVBaker]

I'm going to share some personal things about my life with TUG. I do this b/c it offers up a different perspective on some of the fear & anxiety that people are suffering from right now, including me. I offer this up not to garner sympathy or pity, but to "Expand your thinking and try taking a more altruistic view."

During the '08 recession by husband at the time lost his job. My daughter was young (preschool). That began a nightmare, downward spiral at our house. My husband was at home all of the time. Became a raging , out-of-control, abusive addict. I lived the type of life where I had a duffel bag packed & ready to go (hidden under my bed b/c I had to hide from my ex) for me and my daughter -- in case we needed to flee in the middle of the night. I also had a key to my neighbor's house so we had somewhere safe to go if needed. I had my daughter's passport hidden from my ex - that's how scary it was.

I share this because back then , I did my best to shield my daughter (and me) by leaving the house. I tried to preserve some level of normalcy and safety by going to parks, museums, the library, the pool, going out on errands etc. I'm now really bothered now with current situation b/c people living like this have nowhere to escape to. I cannot imagine how I would have survived if conditions were like that for me in '08 era. I barely survived as it was.

Fast forward, I got an order of protection. I am divorced. I have sole custody of my daughter. Zero child support. And I've had no help from family (eg grandparents, siblings) to help with caring for my daughter over these years while I have worked full time and tried to rebuild my life.

So far, I've been working my usual job. But sure enough on Friday layoffs were announced. I'm safe for now. But it's starting. The anxiety of losing my job (as the sole provider) is off-the-charts.

So please have altruistic views on this topic that go beyond disease prevention. There is a lot more at play here.

Words of advice I was once given. Divorce isn't such a tragedy. A tragedy is staying in an unhappy marriage and teaching your children the wrong things about love.

The ever enduring Fred Rogers once wrote, "For a couple with young children, divorce seldom comes as a "solution" to stress, only as a way to end one form of pain and accept another."

 

[rickandcindy23]

My parents generation was sent by their leaders into battle knowing over 50% would be killed. For our freedom. Today our leaders are sending millions into unemployment and taking away our freedom. For what? My dad (CBI Vet from WWII) must be turning in his grave that we are willingly giving up our freedom.

And please, don't take my attitude as one size fits all, as NY and select other areas absolutely needed to take some drastic actions. But for most of the country, after two weeks it was time to get rolling.

I agree. My dad and his brothers and one brother-in-law all fought in WWII, and he went willingly. All 7 of them volunteered. My maternal grandpa fought in WWI and then WWII.

Those two generations would not believe what is going on today.

People are being arrested for not wearing masks in some places. People are being arrested for being on the beach, sitting on the sand, isolated from others. Much of the country is out of work.

I don't care about my vacations as much as I care that we get our country back before this supposed pandemic.

We visited with our granddaughter yesterday for her birthday, and we had a nice dinner together. We kept the group at 9, according to the state's restrictions, but we were hugging and loving our grankids, which we haven't been able to do.

Anyway, our daughter-in-law has friend who is a nurse, and she is working at Swedish Hospital here near us, and she is in the ER. The only patients that they have for Covid-19 are elderly or morbidly obese. She has not seen a young person of healthy weight in her ER.

 

[MrockStar]

I'm going to share some personal things about my life with TUG. I do this b/c it offers up a different perspective on some of the fear & anxiety that people are suffering from right now, including me. I offer this up not to garner sympathy or pity, but to "Expand your thinking and try taking a more altruistic view."

During the '08 recession by husband at the time lost his job. My daughter was young (preschool). That began a nightmare, downward spiral at our house. My husband was at home all of the time. Became a raging , out-of-control, abusive addict. I lived the type of life where I had a duffel bag packed & ready to go (hidden under my bed b/c I had to hide from my ex) for me and my daughter -- in case we needed to flee in the middle of the night. I also had a key to my neighbor's house so we had somewhere safe to go if needed. I had my daughter's passport hidden from my ex - that's how scary it was.

I share this because back then , I did my best to shield my daughter (and me) by leaving the house. I tried to preserve some level of normalcy and safety by going to parks, museums, the library, the pool, going out on errands etc. I'm now really bothered now with current situation b/c people living like this have nowhere to escape to. I cannot imagine how I would have survived if conditions were like that for me in '08 era. I barely survived as it was.

Fast forward, I got an order of protection. I am divorced. I have sole custody of my daughter. Zero child support. And I've had no help from family (eg grandparents, siblings) to help with caring for my daughter over these years while I have worked full time and tried to rebuild my life.

So far, I've been working my usual job. But sure enough on Friday layoffs were announced. I'm safe for now. But it's starting. The anxiety of losing my job (as the sole provider) is off-the-charts.

So please have altruistic views on this topic that go beyond disease prevention. There is a lot more at play here.

My, thoughts and prayers go out to you and your daughter. What a positive any strong example you are setting for her.

 

[TravelTime]

Safety Advice for Reopening: How to Reduce Your Risks as Coronavirus Lockdowns Ease
As businesses reopen, we asked public-health experts for guidance on venturing out

Safety Advice for Reopening: How to Reduce Your Risks as Coronavirus Lockdowns Ease — The Wall Street Journal

As businesses reopen, we asked public-health experts for guidance on venturing out.

apple.news

 

[MrockStar]

My DW and I both work in healthcare. She is the one who has experienced the passing of people close to her. (and staff infected) We are both 'at-risk' due to our age, and myself b/c of a previous health issue. Most of our friends and a few relatives work in/around healthcare. None of us has missed a day of work (in fact she usually works a couple of hours even on her 'day off') or a paycheck, knock on wood.

I have two friends who left their positions b/c they were too concerned about the exposure and taking it home. I just got back the results of my second test. (still neg.)

But we all see the pain of those unemployed who will lose their transportation and their home/apartment as soon as the moratorium on evictions is over.
The elderly my wife works with talk about the great depression b/c they or their parents lived it. They are scared for their children and grandchildren economically more than they are of the virus.

Despite all of the above, virtually everyone I know is vocal against the shutdown. This is a huge country. Certain areas MUST respond with action like we have taken. But in other areas it is way past time. Most of us agreed with the first two weeks. But as we learn more about how this virus works, we adjust and move on. If the death rate was 15 or 20% of the population, we would take a different tact.



Even though the consensus here in flyover country is we need to move on, I have yet to hear anyone who wasn't respectful and supportive to those who choose to shelter. It's a personal decision that should be driven by our own research, knowledge, and circumstances. (Or at least it should be)

My great grand parents and grandmother and her 5 sisters all lived through the great depression It shaped thier whole lives in a profound and positive way. I learned alot from them and try to live my lifestyle that reflects that and carry it out with my family and friends.