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Email from www.communityhealthtraining.org/Timeshares/

Good on 'ya, Alan. :clap:

To have to endure the denial-based line of reasoning that "It's the HOA's fault (...certainly not my own responsibility or problem) that the HOA won't just take back, right now, that which I once chose to purchase --- but now no longer want" is something which I personally find objectionable, if not outright offensive.

For the sake of argument I will accept you line that someone that doesnt pay their bills is a morally bankrupt individual and Ill go farther and suggest we ought to establish Dickens era workhouses for these folks, perhaps even string em up by their gonads

But how does that change anything for the hoa...There are fees that are not being paid and there are expenses that must be met. Its not the hoas fault that they find themselves in this situation but it is their problem to solve...

Absent any hoa solution... enter Dr Rich

and that is the fault of the hoas
 
If you wish to misinform others, I will respond.

As I said, timeshares are only a small part of our total activity and simply a manner of income production. As such if you truly reviewed our website you would have found more than 75 pages dealing with specific health care issues, patient instructions, professional training, and more. The root website page is http://www.communityhealthtraining.org/. Hopefully, TUG will allow this link for it's informational rebuttal to an untruth. We welcome anyone to view our website information for non-drug pain control, which is our primary focus.

So your only charitable activity consists of 75 pages on a website? Seriously?

How can that possibly cost the thousands and thousands of dollars that your charity generates???

I have a webpage with over 75 pages on it, and it costs me less than $200 a year!
 
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Alan

When I stop paying my maintenance fees it is a problem for the hoa...who else

I understand that its my responsibility as an owner, but when I dont meet my responsibility it does become a problem for someone else..it this case the hoa. abd it a problem they have to solve, either by setting the dogs on me collections agents or breaking my kneecaps, but it that doesnt work they have to foreclose....and thats a problem for the hoa, and as long as the interval is not producing any fees or rental income its a problem for the owners that do pay.

Thats the point, Deadbeat owners are a problem that the hoa has to deal with...How can you say otherwise? You may not like my simple approach(accept deadbacks and establish a sales and rental operation) but I dont see anything better

The procedure to make it/keep it your problem already exists and is being strengthened all the time due to these self serving groups that claim to "help" owners. They actually only help themselves to money they don't deserve. All owners are well advised, as many times before, to look to other legal options to actually deal with what they see as a problem.
 
"The resale scheme also potentially
involves both the “rescue company” and/
or an affiliated “closing company” and the
timeshare owner in a fraudulent transfer as
defined by the Uniform Fraudulent Transfer
Act, which has been adopted in more
than 25 states. In Colorado, the Uniform
Fraudulent Transfer Act is codified at C.R.S.
§ 38-8-101 et. Seq. C.R.S. § 38-8-105, Transfers
Fraudulent as to Present and Future
Creditors
, and case law interpreting the section
provide the legal basis for concluding
that certain rescue company activities may
constitute fraudulent transfers in Colorado.
This section provides: “A transfer made or
obligation incurred by a debtor is fraudulent
as to a creditor, whether the creditor’s claim
arose before or after the transfer was made
or the obligation was incurred, if the debtor
made the transfer or incurred the obligation:
(a) with actual intent to hinder, delay
or defraud any creditor of the debtor…”. The
association is a creditor of both the selling
owner and the transferee.
"

As adopted in 25 States so far - more are planning action soon.

Is that codified enough for you? It is for the Courts.

Yes, this is sufficient. I have not seen this statute until now and it is compelling. I am changing my opinion about Dr Rich's organization. His stated objective to not pay maintenance fees appears to be illegal under this statute. Dr. Rich would have to be making a good faith effort to dispose of the timeshares or pay the maintenance fees until he goes bankrupt. Had he done all of those things, he would be okay. But, he is not even trying.

I agree that it is for the courts, though. I would like to see Dr Rich's business model challenged in court to know one way or another.
 
John - Can I make this into a sticky?

"The resale scheme also potentially
involves both the “rescue company” and/
or an affiliated “closing company” and the
timeshare owner in a fraudulent transfer as
defined by the Uniform Fraudulent Transfer
Act, which has been adopted in more
than 25 states. In Colorado, the Uniform
Fraudulent Transfer Act is codified at C.R.S.
§ 38-8-101 et. Seq. C.R.S. § 38-8-105, Transfers
Fraudulent as to Present and Future
Creditors
, and case law interpreting the section
provide the legal basis for concluding
that certain rescue company activities may
constitute fraudulent transfers in Colorado.
This section provides: “A transfer made or
obligation incurred by a debtor is fraudulent
as to a creditor, whether the creditor’s claim
arose before or after the transfer was made
or the obligation was incurred, if the debtor
made the transfer or incurred the obligation:
(a) with actual intent to hinder, delay
or defraud any creditor of the debtor…”. The
association is a creditor of both the selling
owner and the transferee.
"

As adopted in 25 States so far - more are planning action soon.
 
What about the rights of the other owners at the resort that don't plan to default on their contractual obligation, and will have to pay the maintenance fees for those who do? Why should the people who are going to bail out come first?

Your pat answers about how the HOA's should take back all deeds, and just snap their fingers and whip the resort into shape so they can do that, sound great, but everyone here knows that it isn't nearly that easy, and it ignores the board's fiduciary obligation to the paying owners.

I have noticed that lately you are very defensive and even angry when this topic comes up - why is that? :shrug:

My aim is help the timeshare industry become viable. It is clearly moving quickly to insolvency. The primary reason for that is that there is no liquidity in timeshares because of the lack of a resale market. We all know and perhaps agree that the root cause of this is the sales and marketing model of resort developers who have an incentive to keep putting out new inventory even into over saturated areas like Orlando.

What I am doing is trying to educate people, especially on TUG, that the evil doers are not the PCCs who are providing a service to owners who need to or want to get out of their maintenance fee obligations. They are a symptom of a much great problem. The current culprit are the HOAs who control the destiny of the timeshare going forward because they control the budgets. It does not matter how we got to where we are today. Much of it is due to the original resort developers who may be long gone, but it definitely is their problem to solve.

Also, I am being very hard on the HOAs because they are not acting fast enough to save the industry. They really do need to solve this problem by making their resorts viable or terminating them. That's how business works. Zombie timeshares need to die by being sold off with proceeds distributed to owners. Right now, the industry is dying a very very slow death because non viable timeshares are not allowed to die.

I find it outrageous that laws are stacked against owners from getting rid of their unwanted timeshares.
 
There is one small point you need to understand. Words have specific legal meaning under the law. Generalized use in everyday language does not hold up in court.

You quoted a valid law and it is correct. Thank you. However, the key words are "creditor" and "debtor". Until an actual debt is incurred by the creation of a due bill, there is no debt and this law would be used to throw out any resorts claim that their future bills constitute a debt against the previous owner. Such bills can only be assessed against the current owner and operate as a lien against the property itself. It can not be applied to historical figures (previous owners) nor be liened against other assets.

This is why such deed transfers are required to be "free and clear" by the title escrow company and any charity taking any donation.

Don't believe this? Please ask any lawyer before trying to rebut it.

I am on your side and I agree with your definition of debtor and creditor, but I think your definition needs to be tested in court via-a-vis the law that John cited. If you get big enough, your business model is likely to get challenged in court.

I had always considered your case against the HOA to be a civil complaint for not paying maintenance fees. However, if you set up a charity under fraudulent intent, then you could be in for a criminal case.

You should probably change your business model. It is okay to create a business with a specific legal intent and then fail at it. There is nothing wrong with that. It happens every day. It really does depend on whether or not a judge/jury agrees with your definition of debtor and creditor. As I said, I happen to agree, but I don't get to decide.
 
Have to disagree with you!


"It is simple. The HOA controls the budget. If they mismanage owner's funds, the maintenance fees are too high. When maintenance fees are higher than what units will rent for, then the resort has zero value. The HOA must take dramatic action to cut costs to make the resort viable. If that is not possible, they need to forward a proposal to terminate the timeshare plan and put it up for vote. Any HOA that attempts the above is doing their job."

You read my post but obviously did not understand! The owner controlled BOD inherits the Developer mess and contracts.. In reality Wyndham annoited GM runs the place and does budget. Like the Federal budget many items are simply fixed or ready to serve and beyond BOD to change. What would you suggest be cut? Half the check in staff! Mow the lawn every two weeks. Stop outside window washing! Lock room temperature at 70! Eliminate Disney shuttle bus at BC? Yes, the property taxes could be cut if tax assessment based on original selling price rather than current market is updated!. Wyndhams CWA fee which is average of some 56 resorts was $4.82/ 1,000 in 2010, $4.84/1,000 in 2011 and $4.89/1,000 in 2012. or $.07/1,000 increase or $7.00 over three years for a regular 1 BR. No way in Hell you can convince me this caused default. An ARM that goes up a $100 a month is different situation! Simply put original purchaser was scammed into buying something he could not afford or needed to adjust budget! Why should other owners pay for his extravagent life style? With a 70-80% vote required, termination is devoid of merit!

It doesn't matter if the HOA inherited a mess. I have replaced executives in several companies that were mismanaged and nearly out of business. As soon as I took the job, it became my problem to fix. If those organizations were not fixed when I left, it would have been my fault and my future career opportunities would have been impacted by my performance in those jobs. That is how accountability works which is non existent in government which explains why our country is near insolvency. Nobody is actually held accountable. That is what needs to change in the timeshare industry. The HOAs need to be held accountable for their fiduciary responsibility to owners. If they can't take that accountability, they should resign or not run.

Your examples simply prove that there are 2 and only 2 end states. Viability and Zombie. If a resort cannot create a budget that works, then it should recommend self termination. If it needs 70-80% of votes to self terminate, then it needs to take deedbacks until special assessments rise to the point where 70-80% vote to terminate. The act of taking back deeds will force the HOA to make a viable resort or terminate. That is what will make the industry healthy. The reason why rents are too low to support maintenance fees could be in large part due to tremendous oversupply of units in that area. The law of free market economics dictates that price is dictated by supply and demand. If price is too low to enable viable resorts, then supply by necessity needs to be reduced.

You should stop making excuses for HOAs that are not doing their jobs. They should take actions to make units worth something or take actions to terminate non viable properties.
 
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So your only charitable activity consists of 75 pages on a website? Seriously?

How can that possibly cost the thousands and thousands of dollars that your charity generates???

I have a webpage with over 75 pages on it, and it costs me less than $200 a year!

DeniseM I think you would be better served by taking this fight to government agency who allows fake charities to operate tax free and give deductions on donations. People will always try to scam. If it is not this guy it is someone else.

I would start with stop allowing donations to be deducted from taxes. The real charities will survive and the ones in it for profit are more liking to fail.
 
I would bet the farm if Developers offered a buy back program say at 22% of original cost which is Wyndhams brick and motar cost the PCCs and DOC Rich would vaporize! Why don't you try that theory of the case rather than beating up fellow owners?

First of all, that would never happen. Resort developers are not charitable organizations. They buy back when they need inventory and the price is right.

What would make the PCCs go away is if HOAs took deedbacks for a reasonable transfer fee and 1-2 years maintenance fees. They would also need to tremendous marketing campaign because owners have been conditioned to assume the HOA will do nothing to help them. That's the price the HOA must pay for years of neglect in this area.

If the HOA cannot turn the resort around in two years, they really do deserve to go out of business.

Let me ask you this. You seem to be against holding the HOA accountable. Who should be accountable for turning around the situation in your paradigm. And, if an owner cannot get out of a maintenance fee obligation, what should they do?
 
Good on 'ya, Alan. :clap:

To have to endure the denial-based line of reasoning that "It's the HOA's fault (...certainly not my own responsibility or problem) that the HOA won't just take back, right now, that which I once chose to purchase --- but now no longer want" is something which I personally find objectionable, if not outright offensive.

I don't own that particular resort that you are discussing. So, in my case, I have absolutely zero responsibility to that resort. You can find whatever you want offensive. I find it offensive that people like you take the HOA off the hook for allowing the resort to have zero value when it is the ONLY organization that can take accountability in any scenario since it has the owner list, controls the budget, has the power to foreclose, can hire or create a rental/resale program, can hire a firm to prepare a resort termination proposal and in my opinion is letting down the owners.

What you propose is that owners who want out must subsidize the lifestyles of other owners who want to keep using the resort by holding their credit score hostage. In that case, I say the owner simply stops paying the maintenance fees or offers it free to anyone who lodges a complaint against that owner for not paying.

So, if you are not willing to hold the HOA accountable, who IS accountable?
 
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Have to disagree with you!


"It is simple. The HOA controls the budget. If they mismanage owner's funds, the maintenance fees are too high. When maintenance fees are higher than what units will rent for, then the resort has zero value. The HOA must take dramatic action to cut costs to make the resort viable. If that is not possible, they need to forward a proposal to terminate the timeshare plan and put it up for vote. Any HOA that attempts the above is doing their job."

You read my post but obviously did not understand! The owner controlled BOD inherits the Developer mess and contracts.. In reality Wyndham annoited GM runs the place and does budget. Like the Federal budget many items are simply fixed or ready to serve and beyond BOD to change.


I would bet the farm if Developers offered a buy back program say at 22% of original cost which is Wyndhams brick and motar cost the PCCs and DOC Rich would vaporize! Why don't you try that theory of the case rather than beating up fellow owners?

That (the Developer ) is EXACTLY where the problem came from & where the efforts to contain & blame belongs. They start it by pushing for obviously unqualified sales of questionable use time at grossly inflated prices, mislead as to how easy / low cost the product is, push the shaky owners onto the HOA, refuse deed backs or to handle resales and often put roadblocks & contrived penalties on resale buyers.

They are the source & are to blame - not the HOA's that are handed the mess they create - they take the real money (none goes to the HOA from sales) and run away from what they caused. You nailed it.
 
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I don't own that particular resort that you are discussing. So, in my case, I have absolutely zero responsibility to that resort. You can find whatever you want offensive. I find it offensive that people like you take the HOA off the hook for allowing the resort to have zero value when it is the ONLY organization that can take accountability in any scenario since it has the owner list, controls the budget, has the power to foreclose, can hire or create a rental/resale program, can hire a firm to prepare a resort termination proposal and in my opinion is letting down the owners.

What you propose is that owners who want out must subsidize the lifestyles of other owners who want to keep using the resort by holding their credit score hostage. In that case, I say the owner simply stops paying the maintenance fees or offers it free to anyone who lodges a complaint against that owner for not paying.

So, if you are not willing to hold the HOA accountable, who IS accountable?

This is backwards! It is the paying majority that would be subsidizing the few that want a free out from what they chose to agree & buy into. The shear number of paying owners (usually 85%+ at the majority of resorts) vs the dead beats who make up a handful at best speaks to which side is doing it as intended.

Who IS responsible? The SELLERS that start the process. We'd have just as good a chance of making them step up & handle this as making the HOA's accept deed backs if that isn't the best for the Association in question. Find anyone, except the developers, that don't feel it is the developers that are the ultimate responsible parties for the mess the industry is today. I'll bet the yeahs far dwarf the no's on that.
 
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Shades of Prohibition

The Feds were never able to nail Al Capone for his business endeavors. However, the tax guys got him!

I challenge the good DOC to provide one (1) case where a client/tax payer has taken at $500 deduction and in addition a $5K deduction for time share that could not be given away for free and had IRS audit OK $1,250 tax refund or whatever!

Flip side, how many people are threating to sue him for getting in a nasty mess with IRS!

If both answers are none then he is winning at audit roulette but as we all know in the end the house wins.:ponder:
 
Dundey - Since this seems to be clear to you, what are the charitable activities that his charity is involved in? :shrug:

I was obviously not referencing his charitable activities. I do not think that is germane to the discussion.
 
deleted - -
 
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What you propose is that owners who want out must subsidize the lifestyles of other owners who want to keep using the resort by holding their credit score hostage. So, if you are not willing to hold the HOA accountable, who IS accountable?

Boca, you have nailed the whole problem right here.

We actually have a class struggle going on in TS ownership. One one hand the people who own good weeks and those who do not.

I won't go into an argument on why people bought bad weeks, but as time passes the trading companies are making those weeks less valuable.

At the same time the good weeks owners are very happy and expect the bad week owners to keep paying the same MFs as they do even though those weeks have less value.

If you own a good week it may be very easy to sell or give it away, if you own a bad week, it's not so easy.

I think a number of bad week owners have had enough and want out.

The good week owners don't want to pay extra for their privileged weeks and of course want to hold the bad week owners hostage with the threat of bad credit.

If a resort has a lot of people wanting out there could be problems keeping the resort afloat. IF there are relatively few, there should be no problem taking deed backs.

I am tired of hearing that since someone took on an obligation to buy a timeshare they should be held to that decision forever. People make bad decisions. Should they be made to pay for that decision forever?

I don't think so, even some murders fulfill their obligation to society after a number of years, sometimes a very short time.

The TS industry as we knew it 10 years ago will not work. Too many TSs being built, too much pressure by sales teams leading people to make bad purchases, and no way out without ruining your credit.

Something has to give!

In come the PCCs and the relief companies. Find some help for those being held hostage or it's only going to get worse then the good week owners won't be able to afford their MFs and everything will eventually collapse.
 
That (the Developer ) is EXACTLY where the problem came from & where the efforts to contain & blame belongs. They start it by pushing for obviously unqualified sales of questionable use time at grossly inflated prices, mislead as to how easy / low cost the product is, push the shaky owners onto the HOA, refuse deed backs or to handle resales and often put roadblocks & contrived penalties on resale buyers.

They are the source & are to blame - not the HOA's that are handed the mess they create - they take the real money (none goes to the HOA from sales) and run away from what they caused. You nailed it.

Ok ..

so now we know who to blame...but I dont care who is is to blame, I dont even care who is responsible...my concern is who is going to fix this mess.

I submit the hoas are in the best position to fix it and if they dont, the resort will fail..and the fix is to fiqure out a way to get control of all the unwanted weeks either to sell or rent or to get the super majority needed to close the place down
 
At the same time the good weeks owners are very happy and expect the bad week owners to keep paying the same MFs as they do even though those weeks have less value.

If you own a good week it may be very easy to sell or give it away, if you own a bad week, it's not so easy.

I think a number of bad week owners have had enough and want out.

The good week owners don't want to pay extra for their privileged weeks and of course want to hold the bad week owners hostage with the threat of bad credit.

I am tired of hearing that since someone took on an obligation to buy a timeshare they should be held to that decision forever. People make bad decisions. Should they be made to pay for that decision forever?

I don't think so, even some murders fulfill their obligation to society after a number of years, sometimes a very short time.

The TS industry as we knew it 10 years ago will not work. Too many TSs being built, too much pressure by sales teams leading people to make bad purchases, and no way out without ruining your credit.

Something has to give!

The obvious answer, which applies to most timeshares which tend to be extremely seasonal - there are a limited few areas which have virtually year round use - is to have fees based on use demand, rental and/or trade value. Thus the lesser demand times would pay less per year while the better times would pay more. The obvious way to achieve that is with a points based system that also serves as the basis for annual fee rates.

Unfortunately it takes some effort by the seasonal resorts to make that happen as many (most) were set up with the "all pay the same" weekly model which, as predicted a decade ago, doesn't represent a fair distribution of costs vs use /trade/rental value. But the original owners seem to like that system and fight any change - it may take them seeing fees rise to realize it has to be a more balanced way to spread the costs.

None of this means that "the answer" is forced deed backs, PCC's, Viking Ships or any other interim and equally unsustainable scheme. The resorts have to be open to the root problem and find ways to correct it. It can involve RTU vs deeded type ownership, leases, staggered fees based on week or points, whatever. The "problem" of low value times is very real and presents a tremendous roadblock to selling / giving away a less than high demand time with fees equal to the good times. But the answer is easy if the resorts acted in their own best interest to change the way fees are distributed. It's not as simple as match rental rates or take deeds back - it will take a serious look at how the resorts are structured, how fees are assessed and what the value of the time in question is really worth.

Those are much harder than the simple "take it back or abandonment" mantra too often touted by some. It takes a serious look at the underlying problem and sets resorts up to survive for decades vs a short and unsustainable quick fix for a few owners.
 
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Decisions Have Consequences.

People make bad decisions. Should they be made to pay for that decision forever?
Maybe not forever, but for as long as it takes to correct & recover responsibly.

Responsibly = not making it somebody else's problem.

That's because it wasn't "somebody else" who made the bad decision.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
Yes, this is sufficient. I have not seen this statute until now and it is compelling. I am changing my opinion about Dr Rich's organization. His stated objective to not pay maintenance fees appears to be illegal under this statute. Dr. Rich would have to be making a good faith effort to dispose of the timeshares or pay the maintenance fees until he goes bankrupt. Had he done all of those things, he would be okay. But, he is not even trying.

I agree that it is for the courts, though. I would like to see Dr Rich's business model challenged in court to know one way or another.

So if I pay Dr Rich to take my timeshare I am doing something illegal, In fact if I transfer my time share to anyone I suspect wont pay mf, Im doing something illegal (but Dr Rich is not).

I guess the best advice for someone with a worthless week and wants out is to simply offer the week back to the hoa, and if they dont want it try to give it away, and if that doesnt work stop paying my fees, (but blame the developer and my own stupidity)
 
The obvious answer, which applies to most timeshares which tend to be extremely seasonal - there are a limited few areas which have virtually year round use - is to have fees based on use demand, rental and/or trade value. Thus the lesser demand times would pay less per year while the better times would pay more. The obvious way to achieve that is with a points based system that also serves as the basis for annual fee rates.

Unfortunately it takes some effort by the seasonal resorts to make that happen as many (most) were set up with the "all pay the same" weekly model which, as predicted a decade ago, doesn't represent a fair distribution of costs vs use /trade/rental value. But the original owners seem to like that system and fight any change - it may take them seeing fees rise to realize it has to be a more balanced way to spread the costs.

None of this means that "the answer" is forced deed backs, PCC's, Viking Ships or any other interim and equally unsustainable scheme. The resorts have to be open to the root problem and find ways to correct it. It can involve RTU vs deeded type ownership, leases, staggered fees based on week or points, whatever. The "problem" of low value times is very real and presents a tremendous roadblock to selling / giving away a less than high demand time with fees equal to the good times. But the answer is easy if the resorts acted in their own best interest to change the way fees are distributed. It's not as simple as match rental rates or take deeds back - it will take a serious look at how the resorts are structured, how fees are assessed and what the value of the time in question is really worth.

Those are much harder than the simple "take it back or abandonment" mantra too often touted by some. It takes a serious look at the underlying problem and sets resorts up to survive for decades vs a short and unsustainable quick fix for a few owners.

It seems that you finally get it

If the problem is going to be solved its the hoas that are going to solve it

No one ever said that forced deedbacks were the answer (except for the poor slob stuck with a piece of garbage) But forced deedbacks might get the hoas to wake up and face the problem in front of them..And for the record I dont think you can force deedbacks on an hoa, but common sense requires the hoas to welcome them
 
So if I pay Dr Rich to take my timeshare I am doing something illegal, In fact if I transfer my time share to anyone I suspect wont pay mf, Im doing something illegal (but Dr Rich is not).

I guess the best advice for someone with a worthless week and wants out is to simply offer the week back to the hoa, and if they dont want it try to give it away, and if that doesnt work stop paying my fees, (but blame the developer and my own stupidity)

You have every right to simply place the blame where it belongs - you got it above - and stop paying. You'll suffer whatever penalty of credit hit there may be (and realize it may not be much as timeshares aren't a favorite of credit people either & they tend to understand what is happening) and life will go on. If the resort wants they know where to find you & either offer a deed in lieu or start a foreclosure - again on the owners name/credit as it should be - and eventually it all works out. There is no need to pay anyone, no need to place the deed in a limbo or make it unreachable and more costly to recover - just follow the procedure every resort has. Don't pay if you can't & suffer the consequences. That is taking responsibility and living by the rules. You'd be surprised by how many times you'd end up without a credit hit at all....
 
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You have every right to simply place the blame where it belongs - you got it above - and stop paying. You'll suffer whatever penalty of credit hit there may be (and realize it may not be much as timeshares aren't a favorite of credit people either & they tend to understand what is happening) and life will go on. If the resort wants they know whee to find you & either offer a deed in lieu or start a foreclosure - again on the owners name/credit as it should be - and eventually it all works out. There is no need to pay anyone, no need to place the deed in a loimbo or make it unreachable and more costly to recover - just follow the procedure every resort has. Don't pay if you can't & suffer the consequences. That is taking responsibility and living by the rules. You'd be surprised by how many times you'd end up without a credit hit at all....

It seems you dont care that the hoa and the paying owners are getting stuck with the deed, only that the deadbeat take responsibility

Ill say it again..It doesnt matter who made the mess or that they take responsibility for it, only that it gets cleaned up. You have proposed a solution in your post above (as I understand it variable mf) but its the hoa that has to make this happen and to do it they need the weeks. Accepting deedbacks willingly, might be the answer
 
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