Email from www.communityhealthtraining.org/Timeshares/

[dundey]

Here is the email I received. I thought it was interesting that they did go through most ways of potentially trying to get rid of a t/s unit.

Has anyone here talked to these people or tried to use their service? I'm not looking to get rid of any right now, but I just thought something must be off here.
What am I missing?
------------------------------------------------------

Selling your Timeshare?
How long have you been trying?
How much has it cost you?
Do you just want to end the endless parade of costly ownership fees?
If your timeshare sells in the resort for $17,000 would you accept $500 for it?
Would you willingly pay a fee only AFTER you're out of your timeshare?
If yes, read on, if not, thank you for your consideration.
This advertisement may be in your best interest.


I’ve been in your shoes. I owned a beautiful plush timeshare and couldn’t give it away, literally! No one wanted the recurring fees and bills associated with ownership. Others I talked to found the same thing I did. It was next to impossible to bank and use it for other locations. I once asked an RCI agent if they had ANY available locations ANYWHERE in Europe ANYTIME in July and was told, “No, sorry.”

The first choice of all owners is to sell it for a nice price. then to sell it for anything, then to offer it on eBay for $1 and finally find a charity (Non-Profit Organization) that will actually take title instead of just try to sell it for you. By all means, try that first before you use us.

Try eBay for real value. Here are a few hints to speed up your process. Go to http://www.ebay.com and click on the small letters after the search button - "Advanced Search" (If you're not registered, it's safe to do so. They are a secure company). Next, in the Enter keywords or item number box type in your timeshare resort name and "timeshare". key* -Select the box for Search Including [X] Completed listings. In the results, any RED price is what was asked but never received. Only the GREEN prices were actually sold. How did yours do?

Next, try to donate it. Go to http://donateforacause.org/ and click on the question: "Why was my donation rejected?". Contact them or any other NPO and see how long and at what price they believe they can sell your timeshare for you. They won't take title. They'll only sell it, keep the cash received and give you a donation credit for the actual cash received. In the mean time, you remain owner and responsible for all bills.

What if it doesn't sell? If you don’t pay the bill, the resort sends you to collection and ruins your credit.

Give it back to the resort. You can’t just turn it over to them. They look at you as a cash cow giving them money each year forever. Why should they let you end it? Even your non-paid bill is worth more on their accounting books than taking the timeshare back.

We are a federally authorized non-profit organization (NPO). Finding an NPO willing to actually accept title is rare. They have to face the same problems you’ve had.

We're different. We DO ACCEPT TITLE. We don't sell it. We accept it now and keep it based on IRS regulations.

What about future bills? Since we never rent, use or sell the timeshare, we receive and ignore all the bills. The resorts don't like us, but we use the law to block their pressure tactics. At the end of 36 months we offer it back to the resort. Interestingly, most don't want it back. And you are free and out of the picture.

It’s an easy process. A licensed, bonded closing company you choose handles the whole transaction. We receive nothing until it's completed and you are free. At the end, we grant to you a donation credit for up to the limit of $5,000 set by the IRS. This credit is for you to use legally and ethically as a donation deduction on your tax forms to gain an income deduction. If your in a 25% tax bracket, that’s $1,250 for your timeshare!

Out of that $1,250 you will get back in your tax refund there was a cost. We request a $500 donation, (worth an additional donation credit of about $125) to accept and process the timeshare. A title closing company generally charges about $400. We don't risk accepting your money and not following through. We let you select a licensed, bonded closing company to handle the entire transaction. Your money is deposited into their escrow account. Only at the end we are the final recipient of the deed and our final service fee. And you can end up with actual cash in your pocket.

There are two basic conditions. First, all resort fees and outstanding debt must be paid up to date. Second, your timeshare must be a deeded possession, not a vacation membership contract of only points or credits or a long term lease.

Complete details can be found on our website
[Link deleted - let's not help companies like this advertise. - DeniseM Moderator]

 

[DeniseM]

We DO ACCEPT TITLE. We don't sell it. We accept it now and keep it based on IRS regulations.

What about future bills? Since we never rent, use or sell the timeshare, we receive and ignore all the bills. The resorts don't like us, but we use the law to block their pressure tactics. At the end of 36 months we offer it back to the resort. Interestingly, most don't want it back. And you are free and out of the picture.

Hmmm...sounds like a Viking Ship LLC to me. This means they deed the timeshares to an LLC and then bankrupt the LLC and abandon the timeshares. Otherwise their claim that they can ignore the bills doesn't make any sense. Note that some resorts are catching on to this scheme and they refusing to accept deeds transferred to companies like this. Also note that creating an LLC for this purpose is illegal.

 

[ttt]

This "charity" has been around for several years and they are indeed a Viking ship, but cheaper then most of the PCC's.

 

[DeniseM]

Thanks for that info. Alan.

The attorneys on TUG have reported that the Viking Ship LLC's are illegal and also make it more difficult and expensive for the resort to reacquire the property. Since some resorts are catching on to this scheme and refusing to record deeds from such entities, it could leave you hanging in limbo, with your deed still recorded with the resort, and all fees still under your name as well. In which case, they could still turn you over to collections.

In my opinion, this scheme is both illegal and unethical - I certainly wouldn't use them.

 

[theo]

Not exactly a "Viking Ship", but of dubious ethics nonetheless...

This "charity" has been around for several years and they are indeed a Viking ship, but cheaper then most of the PCC's.

I have previously read extensive material by "Dr. Ken Rich" about this particular "Community Health" operation. His assertion is that his entity is a non-profit corporation, into whose name the timeshare is placed after the non-profit receives a "donation" of sufficient amount (I vaguely recall $600, plus closing costs). He (Dr. Rich) is very open about the fact that any and all subsequent maintenance fee bills are therafter simply ignored; "Dr. Rich" seems quite confident that there is no potential action that can be taken against his non-profit (i.e., no assets) entity which is of any significance or concern to him whatsoever.

He is fond of making vague reference to IRS regulations which (or so he appears to assert and believe) allow him to conduct this activity and remain shielded from any consequences associated therewith. Whether or not he is correct in that belief, I do not claim to know.

"Dr. Rich" engaged in some argumentative and dismissive banter in the lame RedWeek forums with an obnoxious woman known there as "jay jay". Some may know and remember "jay jay" as the former "gin gin" here on TUG ---before she was given the permanent boot from here. In any case, jay jay seems to have been on the "right" side of the fence when weighing in (ad nauseum) on Dr. Ken Rich and his "donation" gig.

 

[DeniseM]

In a way that sounds even worse, because it means that no one will pay the MF for a very long time. Actually, it means that all the other owners at the resort will be absorbing the MF for a very long time...

 

[amycurl]

Hmmm...more information. I looked them up on Guidestar.com and was able to pull their financial information for 2010 (most recent available.) Seems they are set up as private foundation/trust, rather than a traditional 501(c)3. They list as their only "donors" all the people who gave them timeshares, which they are valuing at a straightforward $5,000 a pop as a non-cash asset. These timeshares seem to be the only assets they have. They also don't list any of their "charitable" activities.

The only paid employee of the trust is Mr. Rich, and it seems like he was paid about $3,000-$4,000 for the year.

This kind of thing gives tax-exempt organizations a bad name. I would be embarrassed to file something like this, and I have no idea why the IRS hasn't flagged them yet.

My expertise is in 501(c)3s, not foundations/trusts but I don't think they have the same protections (if any) that a traditional LLC has. I would think that any HOA would be able to foreclose on them just as they could on any individual.

(I'd be happy to provide the Guidestar link to their listing, but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate/necessary.)

 

[TUGBrian]

the $5000 number is convenient, as its at the exact limit people can claim their timeshare is worth on donation to a charity, without having to provide an appraisal to the IRS.

 

[funtime]

This is fraud plain and simple and anyone that contributes is contributing to a fraudulent activity. Anyone that advertises so blatantly is sure to be caught - probably later rather than sooner. Funtime

 

[AwayWeGo]

Viking Funeral Ship, L.L.C.

-- hotlinked --​

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. ​

 

[theo]

Maybe, but...

This is fraud plain and simple and anyone that contributes is contributing to a fraudulent activity. Anyone that advertises so blatantly is sure to be caught - probably later rather than sooner. Funtime

I don't claim to know with any certainty whether it's "fraud plain and simple" (your words) what Ken Rich and Community Health Training is doing. I do think that his stated practices are deceitful, inconsiderate and thoroughly despicable --- but none of those "features" may actually comprise the necessary legal elements of a fraud case. I simply don't know and won't pretend otherwise.

That being said, it is abundantly clear to me from his many assertive (arrogant, actually) posts that "Dr." Rich is comfortable and confident that his "practices" are lawful and within IRS regulations and guidelines.
If he is wrong in that belief, it is equally clear that no one (including the IRS) is thus far actually doing anything about it...

 

[AwayWeGo]

I.R.S. Tipster Line.

If he is wrong in that belief, it is equally clear that no one (including the IRS) is thus far actually doing anything about it.

Doesn't the IRS offer rewards for turning in individuals & organizations that are operating fraudulent tax dodges ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[TUGBrian]

http://www.ehow.com/how_6719295_report-charitable-fraud-irs.html

 

[theo]

The IRS certainly doesn't make it easy...

http://www.ehow.com/how_6719295_report-charitable-fraud-irs.html

It appears that the IRS expects (unreasonably and unrealistically, imho) a prospective complainant to provide the name, adddress, telephone number and taxpayer i.d. number of the target of the complaint, as well dollar amount(s) and offense date(s) --- before also completing IRS form 3949A and /or a detailed narrative description of the alleged wrongdoing.

Kinda makes me wonder what they (...or should I say we...) pay IRS investigators to do if the tax paying citizenry is somehow expected to do all of the pertinent shoe leather and background work for them...

 

[dundey]

Thanks all for the excellent information.

While not necessarily illegal, It is obvious that this would potentially hurt the POA's and thereby the members at large of any timeshare that one would "donate" to this company.

Then of course there is much of this going on already at many resorts. I know 2 of the ones I own have a huge problem with non payers. In fact one of them actually stated that they would work with delinquent owners if their accounts are 3 years in arrears but not less than that. Their solution is to allow those owners out of the deed in return for payment of the past due amounts.
I'm not sure I understand that strategy, but I guess it has a positive effect at least in the short term.

 

[ronparise]

Thanks all for the excellent information.

While not necessarily illegal, It is obvious that this would potentially hurt the POA's and thereby the members at large of any timeshare that one would "donate" to this company.

Then of course there is much of this going on already at many resorts. I know 2 of the ones I own have a huge problem with non payers. In fact one of them actually stated that they would work with delinquent owners if their accounts are 3 years in arrears but not less than that. Their solution is to allow those owners out of the deed in return for payment of the past due amounts.
I'm not sure I understand that strategy, but I guess it has a positive effect at least in the short term.

I have some experience working with short sales. If you are current with your payments the banks are typically unwilling to even consider your shortsale application...Why would they? by making your payments you are demonstrating your ability to pay......However, fall a few months behind and they will talk.

It seems that the timeshare HOAs you mention are acting the same way.....They will only work with you if you are 3 years behind...

It seems that the good doctor is aware of this and, conveniently, 3 years corresponds with some IRS rule he quotes. So the donor (he says) can claim some deduction without an appraisal...and the resort can have the deed back without the expense of foreclosure..and the doctor can keep the $500 fee......win, win, win Whats not to like?

Many previous threads here on TUG have discussed the consequences of just not paying maintenance fees....collections, garnisments, bad credit reports and foreclosure seem to be it....for most of us thats enough to keep us paying...or paying until we can find someone to sell to.....But as long as an individual has made themselves judgement proof, and is willing to take the heat, those consequences dont seem so bad....Lets see: 2000 deals at $500 each...$1000000.....against a bad credit report......dosent seem so bad

 

[SeniorDirector]

Honest Reply to Misinformation

So the donor (he says) can claim some deduction without an appraisal...and the resort can have the deed back without the expense of foreclosure..and the doctor can keep the $500 fee......win, win, win Whats not to like?

Many previous threads here on TUG have discussed the consequences of just not paying maintenance fees....collections, garnisments, bad credit reports and foreclosure seem to be it....

I guess it's time to answer this thread. I'm Dr. Ken Rich. That's my real name and I'm a retired Doctor of Chiropractic (DC). I work for Community Health Training, Inc. I'll try to keep this simple and not fill it with direct legal or IRS quotes. However, I'm more than willing and able to back up everything I say with more than sufficient references. The last complainant, "jayjay" finally simply refused to believe what the IRS actually prints on their website and in their regulations.

First, CHT is a private foundation organized as a full corporation, not a LLC. As such it can accept and process any and all donations on the same basis as any 501(c)3 corporation except for one caveat. Any donation to CHT that the donor decides to claim as an income deduction is limited to no more than 50% of the donor adjusted gross income. That doesn't mean when added to other donations. It applies only to the specific donation. i.e. if a $5,000 donation credit is claimed the donor can have an AGI of no more than $10,000 for the year. At the same time, the other $5,000 of income could have been donated to a 501(c)3 and the full $10,000 of income can be offset.

As for the $5,000 donation credit, that is up to the donor. They don't have to claim anything. However, the IRS specifically states that up to $5,000 can be claimed without an appraisal. And if an appraisal is done the IRS says it is not supposed to include distressed sales like the $1 eBay sales. In fact, specific requirements are such that almost the only comparables that can be included are actual resort retail sales or what an actual replacement unit would cost if purchased from the resort.

The only recourse to any owner for unpaid bills is as stated in the above quote. As described, CHT has no assets, is more than willing to allow a foreclosure and even willing to deed the TS back to the resort if they want it. Unfortunately most don't want it back. There is nothing illegal about this. It is fully according to the credit laws of all states.

There is no fraud involved. Fraud is "A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury." Everything is fully disclosed. However, since a resort is not party to a deed transfer, the property has no current debt against it, and their future billing is arbitrary, there is no legal requirement to notify them. However, if they choose to visit our website, its all there for them to read.

As for a resort refusing to allow the deed transfer, they have no such legal right. As far as they can go is to have in writing in the original sales contract a clause called "First Right of Refusal". The limit of this is that the resort must either accept and fulfill the position of the taker of the deed and thus free the donor according to the terms of the offer or refuse to take that position. Once they have refused such an offer, they have no legal right to block any transfer.

The only legitimate complaint anywhere is that since the HOA doesn't get the billed income, other owners have to make up for the difference. Sorry, that's a fact of life. Whether intentional or due to circumstances income must balance expenses.

The real fix for this is not to slander this process. Fix the problem! Far too many owners have asked for help in getting out of their timeshare only to find there is no help. Why doesn't the HOA require the resort to take back titles for free or for a minimal fee so it can be resold again? Why wait for 3 years of nonpayment and then ask the poor owner to pay all those back accumulated fees they couldn't afford to begin with? What possible additional cost is there to adding another free timeshare for sale that has already been built and has no investment cost in it?

The only argument I've heard is, "Pay up or else!" Well, we let other people donate a nominal fee so we can just accept their position of "or else" for them.

Please don't turn this into a bashing contest. That's not what the administrators want. I've added information here for better understanding.

 

[AwayWeGo]

HOA Has No Say-So Over The Timeshare Company.

Why doesn't the HOA require the resort to take back titles for free or for a minimal fee so it can be resold again?

Depends on what the meaning of "resort" is.

The HOA may not be allowed to sell timeshares on-site, depending on what the founding condo documents say about that privilege.

In any case, the timeshare resort (as represented by the HOA) cannot require the timeshare company to do anything.

Sure, at a newish timeshare that's still in active sales, the HOA is mostly likely captive to the timeshare company.

But at mature, sold-out timeshares where the owners have taken over control by voting the timeshare company out, the HOA still can't make the timeshare company do anything, much less require the company to accept deedbacks.

So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[SeniorDirector]

Depends on what the meaning of "resort" is.

The HOA may not be allowed to sell timeshares on-site, depending on what the founding condo documents say about that privilege.

In any case, the timeshare resort (as represented by the HOA) cannot require the timeshare company to do anything.

I understand your point about lack of control. However, my thought was not on the issue of authority of the HOA. It was based on the understanding that they can at least give suggestions to the resort sales company.

We recently had one resort send us the paperwork to "Deed in Lieu of Foreclosure". Frankly, we were happy to comply.

 

[wawacito]

As for a resort refusing to allow the deed transfer, they have no such legal right.

Wow - I can't believe nobody argued against this. There is a whole 16 page thread where people argued this statement.

The real fix for this is not to slander this process. Fix the problem! Far too many owners have asked for help in getting out of their timeshare only to find there is no help ...
The only argument I've heard is, "Pay up or else!"

Amen ... well said.

 

[timeos2]

The Dr may be in for a surprising turn of events before long. Resorts can & do refuse to accept verified fraudulent transfers - he may not have run into an informed/proactive one yet but keep it up & he will soon.

To owners: Unless you plan to be involved in an unwanted potential legal battle, still be responsible for the fees you paid to get out of and, if you are stupid enough to try the "tax deduction" - a long discredited ploy - then plan on wasting $500 with this group/guy. DON'T DO IT. This is a fraudulent operation on every level & they admit it openly. They won't be around much longer in all likelihood. Use at your own very large risk.

 

[theo]

Let's clarify a few points here...

In regard to a resort's "legal rights", it is certainly true that a resort cannot impede a resale deed recording; a resort is not any part of that process. However, a resort can simply refuse to acknowledge its' validity and /or can challenge its' legality. I believe that we will see just such challenges become the norm rather than the exception as the fleet of Viking ships grows. Stay tuned.

Resorts can (and do) refuse use and occupancy to any owner or new "grantee" as soon as the account becomes delinquent. This is, of course, of no concern to Captain Ken Rich (aka Senior Director above) of the Viking Ship "Community Health Training". In his acceptance (...for a fee of $599) of a timeshare into his non-profit entity, there is clearly no intent to either use the facility or ever pay any annual fees; Senior Director / Ken Rich has been quite forthright in openly stating that fact.

In the end, it's an endless, philosophical argument as to whether this particular form of owner abandonment is ethical; to each his / her own viewpoint on that. Some people have opined that the practice may actually constitute outright fraud; I certainly do not claim to know whether that is so. I do know, however, that this is merely a "sanitized" form of ownership abandonment. It's essentially the same gig as practiced by many PCC's, but one calling the slightly lower charge a "donation" (which I would be inclined to believe is certainly not tax deductible as a charitable contribution) instead of just calling the required payment a "fee".

 

[timeos2]

Theo - There is in fact a way a resort can refuse to accept even a recorded transfer to a new owner. By doing so the old owner remains responsible as they are still the legally responsible party. All the resort has to do is prove the new "buyer" doesn't plan to use the time or pay the fees - in this case openly admitted by the fraudster - and they can legally reject the transfer in many states now. More all the time. The DR is soon to be "out" I hope. And those like him.

 

[theo]

We shall see...

Theo - There is in fact a way a resort can refuse to accept even a recorded transfer to a new owner. By doing so the old owner remains responsible as they are still the legally responsible party. All the resort has to do is prove the new "buyer" doesn't plan to use the time or pay the fees - in this case openly admitted by the fraudster - and they can legally reject the transfer in many states now. More all the time. The DR is soon to be "out" I hope. And those like him.

I share your view John; I hope you're right. May Captain Ken Rich come to regret his Internet proclamations (here on TUG and also on RedWeek forums) of having no intentions of ever paying any maintenance fees or ever attempting to utilize the intervals which he accepts (...for $599) into his "non-profit" entity.

 

[pacodemountainside]

Yes, IRS only mandates an appraisal if over $5K, but it can and will demand proof of any deduction it challenges. Comps or formal appraisals are generally based on current sales, such as last 12 months. Of course, a unique sale will be thrown out. Developers selling price years ago mean nothing!

Try telling bank, appraiser, Joe and Sue buyer that Condo you bought from Developer 4 years ago it is worth what Developer sold for and all those recent sales are low ball.

IRS is well aware of phony valuations from questionable charties for vehicles, time shares, etc. and will challenge. Once they start looking watch out!

Because of Wyndham's unique setup recording a deed has nothing to do with Trust who manages symbolic points. Until your name is off Trusts records you are on hook for MF! Just ask any ebay purchaser if they can use points with just a copy of deed. PCC guys clearly state no reservations until Wyndham VOI Trust accepts.