Email from www.communityhealthtraining.org/Timeshares/

[timeos2]

It seems that you finally get it

If the problem is going to be solved its the hoas that are going to solve it

No one ever said that forced deedbacks were the answer (except for the poor slob stuck with a piece of garbage) But forced deedbacks might get the hoas to wake up and face the problem in front of them..And for the record I dont think you can force deedbacks on an hoa, but common sense requires the hoas to welcome them

Finally got it? I have been a vocal proponent for graduated fees - I believed for a decade points were the answer but there are others - as the solution for seasonal resorts. The old guard that LOVE having the 6-8 prime weeks they can use trade or rent for $1500 over fees subsidized by the 40+ far less valuable weeks - and they love the unfair week for week trading (read upgrades) that the failed RCI model was based on.

Reality has hit & RCI changed - in some ways for the worse with the horrible rental of time they get for free & no payments to the resorts/owners - but the older (and those that tend to be in the deepest trouble) often have the old guard fighting tooth & nail to hold on to their unfair perks.

It take a strong HOA and Board members to fight & win the battle to make fees more relative to the owners value, and it can't happen overnight, but with careful monitoring and hard work the change can slowly be implemented and the resort made financially sound. No PCC's needed. Just an informed Board willing to act in the resorts' - not the high value owners - best interest. Not easy to find those willing to fight that battle but if resorts don't they face disaster.

 

[timeos2]

It seems you dont care that the hoa and the paying owners are getting stuck with the deed, only that the deadbeat take responsibility

Ill say it again..It doesnt matter who made the mess or that they take responsibility for it, only that it gets cleaned up. You have proposed a solution in your post above (as I understand it variable mf) but its the hoa that has to make this happen and to do it they need the weeks. Accepting deedbacks willingly, might be the answer

Of course it matters that the HOA is stuck with a deed if they go through foreclosure or decide it's in their best interest to take a deed in lieu. But that is a small trickle, easily dealt with in most cases, not a flood of "easy outs" if the gates are opened to anyone that decides on a whim (or necessity) they want out. In fact in many cases resorts have agreements for foreclosures that may cost them little or nothing for the foreclosure process and provides a buyer at the end so they are never actually stuck with the bill. That doesn't happen if the floodgates are opened as right now no organization can accept unlimited owners into any system and know they can find paying takers. It has to be controlled and the method is the foreclosure process as outlined in virtually every resort's documents.

What I worry about is a flood at any resort of deed backs they simply cannot handle. If you simply say "We take it" you'll likely get people who aren't really in trouble or who would continue to use/pay the time but see the opportunity to get out cheap and fear that won't be around forever (and they'd likely be correct as it isn't sustainable). Then you've sealed the fate of a resort in trouble and that can take years or even decades to sort out and no one ever wins when that happens except the attorneys invariably involved.

 

[csxjohn]

The obvious answer, which applies to most timeshares which tend to be extremely seasonal - there are a limited few areas which have virtually year round use - is to have fees based on use demand, rental and/or trade value. Thus the lesser demand times would pay less per year while the better times would pay more. The obvious way to achieve that is with a points based system that also serves as the basis for annual fee rates.

Unfortunately it takes some effort by the seasonal resorts to make that happen as many (most) were set up with the "all pay the same" weekly model which, as predicted a decade ago, doesn't represent a fair distribution of costs vs use /trade/rental value. But the original owners seem to like that system and fight any change - it may take them seeing fees rise to realize it has to be a more balanced way to spread the costs.

None of this means that "the answer" is forced deed backs, PCC's, Viking Ships or any other interim and equally unsustainable scheme. The resorts have to be open to the root problem and find ways to correct it. It can involve RTU vs deeded type ownership, leases, staggered fees based on week or points, whatever. The "problem" of low value times is very real and presents a tremendous roadblock to selling / giving away a less than high demand time with fees equal to the good times. But the answer is easy if the resorts acted in their own best interest to change the way fees are distributed. It's not as simple as match rental rates or take deeds back - it will take a serious look at how the resorts are structured, how fees are assessed and what the value of the time in question is really worth.

Those are much harder than the simple "take it back or abandonment" mantra too often touted by some. It takes a serious look at the underlying problem and sets resorts up to survive for decades vs a short and unsustainable quick fix for a few owners.

I agree with everything you say here John.

Getting the HOAs to see the problems that are coming and taking action is not going to be easy. Talking about it here may help others to see it is a real problem.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Deedback Overload.

If you simply say "We take it" you'll likely get people who aren't really in trouble or who would continue to use/pay the time but see the opportunity to get out cheap and fear that won't be around forever (and they'd likely be correct as it isn't sustainable). Then you've sealed the fate of a resort in trouble and that can take years or even decades to sort out and no one ever wins when that happens except the attorneys invariably involved.

That makes me wonder what is (was) up at the heartland USA timeshare that willingly took back our deed, freely, with no ifs or ands or buts, a couple of years ago.

Apparently they took'm back willy-nilly from anybody & everybody who wanted to deed'm back. I'm guessing we weren't the only ones who got tired of exorbitant maintenance fees for paltry points.

All I can figure is that somebody working within the HOA-BOD was angling to take over the whole resort. Why else would they willingly enter what otherwise would be a death spiral triggered by deedback overload ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[csxjohn]

That makes me wonder what is (was) up at the heartland USA timeshare that willingly took back our deed, freely, with no ifs or ands or buts, a couple of years ago.

Apparently they took'm back willy-nilly from anybody & everybody who wanted to deed'm back. I'm guessing we weren't the only ones who got tired of exorbitant maintenance fees for paltry points.

All I can figure is that somebody working within the HOA-BOD was angling to take over the whole resort. Why else would they willingly enter what otherwise would be a death spiral triggered by deedback overload ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

This could make perfect sense if someone there was on the ball. Take back enough deeds to get the votes to discontinue the timehsare and whoever's left gets the money from the sale. Sounds too easy.

 

[ronparise]

This could make perfect sense if someone there was on the ball. Take back enough deeds to get the votes to discontinue the timehsare and whoever's left gets the money from the sale. Sounds too easy.

Not easy, but thats the plan...take 'em all back, raise MF, and impose SAs to encourage more deedbacks, until you get to the tipping point where you get the flood that John predicts.. then sell the place

 

[AwayWeGo]

Blowing The Whistle To I.R.S.

I think you would be better served by taking this fight to government agency who allows fake charities to operate tax free and give deductions on donations. People will always try to scam. If it is not this guy it is someone else.

For a long time (& maybe still, I don't know), people tipping off IRS about unlawful tax dodges got a reward from IRS when the dust settled -- percentage of back taxes collected, amounts recovered, etc.

Maybe the IRS sleuths would be interested in going after some of the Viking Funeral Ship groups claiming charitable status & promoting contributions on the basis of questionable tax write-offs for contributors.

Wouldn't that be something ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ace2000]

For a long time (& maybe still, I don't know), people tipping off IRS about unlawful tax dodges got a reward from IRS when the dust settled -- percentage of back taxes collected, amounts recovered, etc.

Maybe the IRS sleuths would be interested in going after some of the Viking Funeral Ship groups claiming charitable status & promoting contributions on the basis of questionable tax write-offs for contributors.

Wouldn't that be something ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Have you been paying your share of taxes on all of those horns you've been buying and selling?

 

[DeniseM]

Have you been paying your share of taxes on all of those horns you've been buying and selling?

He doesn't have to pay taxes - he has started a charity - a home for homeless horns.

Say that fast 3 times!

 

[ace2000]

He doesn't have to pay taxes - he has started a charity - a home for homeless horns.

Say that fast 3 times!

That's hilarious. You mean he's got a viking ship LLC for his horn business?

 

[timeos2]

That's hilarious. You mean he's got a viking ship LLC for his horn business?

I'm just hoping he doesn't take up the bagpipes. You don't play the bagpipes you just hope to control them. Having a Viking ship for this would be a real hornswaggle.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Horns Without Homes.

Have you been paying your share of taxes on all of those horns you've been buying and selling?

I was making a little something there for a while.

Then I got seriously taken to the cleaners on an outstanding customized Yamaha YHR-668N & again on a no-name Chinese copy of Alexander 102ST. Not sure at this point whether I'm ahead or behind.

So it goes.

Meanwhile, click here for Homeless Horns.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ace2000]

I was making a little something there for a while.

Then I got seriously taken to the cleaners on an outstanding customized Yamaha YHR-668N & a no-name Chinese copy of Alexander 102ST. Not sure at this point whether I'm ahead or behind.

So it goes.

Meanwhile, click here for Homeless Horns.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

You've got the wrong business model. Here's what you do... first, set up seminars in various communities and send out post cards to all horn owners... then, I think you know the next steps...

:hysterical:

 

[SeniorDirector]

Irregardless of some opinions here about our activity, we do believe there is change necessary in the timeshare industry. If you will not shoot the messenger in this, it might make some sense to some of you.

Consider this situation. You are the proud owner of a production company making whatever you can think of. Your price in sales for each widget is made up of several costs.

1. materials
2. employee manufacturing
3. office expenses
4. marketing
5. insurance to cover manufacturing processes
6. profit.

To keep it simple let's say each item requires the same 16.6% of the final sales price. Now consider that someone who paid you 100% of the original sale price is willing to give you the item back in it's original condition ready for immediate resale for 2% of the original cost. You could try to resell it at it's original 100% price and your profit would become 66% since your only expenses would be office expenses and marketing.

However, since you still have regular inventory, you could make it available as an older model (not as desirous a week) at a reduced price at even 50% of the original price and still make a nice profit. Why? BECAUSE IT'S ALREADY MADE!! (Of course, if it IS a desirable week, put the full price on it for a 5x profit margin).

If you really look at the cost involved it's about $100 in recording fees and paperwork for an already existing sales company to acquire a timeshare put back into inventory. That's a whole lot less than the others that still have to pay their original production costs.

In applying this to the timeshare industry, why couldn't the resorts and HOAs work it out together to take back deeds in lieu of foreclosure and include them in the sales inventory as "last years" model giving a new buyer a choice of buying an off week at a nice discount or holding out for their choice of week at the regular price? This would turn a few new buyers away from the higher price choice inventory, but it would end the glut of deadbeat owners that have no choice in what they do to get rid their timeshare. The reality is that there isn't that many to cause a glut. And even if they did, they are all essentially pure profit. How does that possibly make the sales process harder for the existing sales force?

There would be far fewer complaints about the developer/HOA attitude of pay up or face credit ruin. It would actually be MORE profitable to whoever took the profit (the sales force pays that profit to someone now). Maybe it could be shared between the developer and HOA with each getting a bigger net profit. It would be relatively easy to implement. Most beneficial in some minds would be there would be no need for people to pay others to take their timeshares.

Until such a solution is implemented people will continue to do what they must to survive financially. Blaming anyone, casting dispersions on ancestry, name calling, or anything else won't solve the real problem.

I've read hundreds of similar discussion here and elsewhere. Many of you have been in business, production, marketing, and understand what cost/profit really is. If anyone can consider this solution and point out its mistakes I'd appreciate it. It does seem the simplest solution.

 

[timeos2]

Senior Director. Very positive post & a good thought. The issue is, so far, despite the unbelievable glut of current owners looking to sell their timeshares the Developers - they are NOT the resorts but are the ones that handle sales often with unfavorable (to the owners) restrictions on the rights of HOA's (who really DO run the resorts for the owners) to even attempt on site sales of "used (resale) weeks. At the same time they, despite the very valid points your post makes, refuse to take the "used" time into their sales process as it would mean sharing with the sellers (heaven forbid!) or admitting that there is no difference between "used" (resale) and "new" (retail) timeshares. Unlike a car or a widget they are all "used" units.

I would support any plan to make Developers handle resales as a regular part of the sales cycle. Until enough owners rise up and demand that and the Developers see a downturn in "new" sales because of it we aren't going to see it happen. The timeshare industry as a whole needs a robust, active resale market however it had to come into being. The current answers aren't going to handle the aging resorts and owners of 20-25 years as they need to get out. It takes a strong & owner supported HOA to make sure that a resort has a resale plan that is viable. Few have done so so far but it often isn't their fault. Their hands are tied by the (Developer written) docs they must operate under. It is stacked against the owners in far too many cases and can take decades to change.