Do you plan to or have you enrolled in the new points program?

[DanCali]

Thanks this confirms my fear. This is not what we agreed to when we purchased in 2006; the rules of the game have changed and we 'owners' have absolutely no say. This stinks.

If there was no skim and an "exchange first" feature, this could have been an attractive program. Marriott got so greedy that the biggest selling point of the Destination Club (to anyone who has some understanding of the system) is the "fee savings."

When joining an exchange system to save on fees is the best reason to join, that already speaks volumes of the quality of the actual exchange system...

Step 1 - hook people in with the alleged promise of fee savings. Step 2 - make the II system so inconvenient to force people to use the DC and incur skim each time they use it. Step 3 - take the company public while they charge enrollment fees. Step 4 - increase fees and create new fees (under the disguise of "listening to our customers" of course) if and when enrollment fees dry up???

 

[thinze3]

Just like any program, there are those who will learn to use it to their advantage. Also, to some owners, like those with ocean view or ocean front summer weeks on Hilton Head Island, it's a no brainer to join because of there high assigned values and low MF's.

Skim? There is also the expiration of points at the end of each year. Would that be a double skim?

 

[SueDonJ]

Just like any program, there are those who will learn to use it to their advantage. Also, to some owners, like those with ocean view or ocean front summer weeks on Hilton Head Island, it's a no brainer to join because of there high assigned values and low MF's.

Skim? There is also the expiration of points at the end of each year. Would that be a double skim?

Not sure how you make that leap from not reserving usage to skim? In that respect Points are exactly like Weeks - if you don't make a reservation to use (home resort stay, exchange, rent, etc...) them during your Use Period/Season, you lose them.

 

[OldPantry]

Not sure how you make that leap from not reserving usage to skim? In that respect Points are exactly like Weeks - if you don't make a reservation to use (home resort stay, exchange, rent, etc...) them during your Use Period/Season, you lose them.

Really Susan, I think you slipped here. What about the exceedingly common situation where a reservation used most, but not all of your bonus points (given for joining the DC)? What happened to those babies? That a far different situation than letting a whole week go unused. I don't think it's unfair to view the wastage of surplus points as a form of skim. And is this the only situation where unused stray points get absorbed by Marriott? Just inquiring, as I haven't joined the DC (doesn't pay with a single legacy EOY).

 

[SueDonJ]

Really Susan, I think you slipped here. What about the exceedingly common situation where a reservation used most, but not all of your bonus points (given for joining the DC)? What happened to those babies? That a far different situation than letting a whole week go unused. I don't think it's unfair to view the wastage of surplus points as a form of skim. And is this the only situation where unused stray points get absorbed by Marriott? Just inquiring, as I haven't joined the DC (doesn't pay with a single legacy EOY).

You know, you're right - that thought never occurred to me. Good pick-up.

When I think of skim in Marriott's program, I think of the way it's been defined by so many on TUG as a built-in design of the DC - that practically none of the enrolled Weeks are allotted enough Points to cover the cost of a home resort stay in season or a like-for-like exchange. The prevailing thought has been that the skim factor was deliberately designed by Marriott as a way for them to gain some measure of value from every enrolled Week that's been converted to DC Points. TUG-savvy owners who choose to convert an enrolled Week to Points acknowledge this form of skim exists and that it is Marriott-induced. While the form you mention is certainly valid, I wouldn't say it's Marriott-induced - the control of how DC Points from a converted Week are used rests solely with the owner who chooses to make the conversion. Marriott has no chance of collecting "orphaned" Points unless an owner leaves Points in that vulnerable position by not using them.

 

[OldPantry]

You know, you're right - that thought never occurred to me. Good pick-up.

When I think of skim in Marriott's program, I think of the way it's been defined by so many on TUG as a built-in design of the DC - that practically none of the enrolled Weeks are allotted enough Points to cover the cost of a home resort stay in season or a like-for-like exchange. The prevailing thought has been that the skim factor was deliberately designed by Marriott as a way for them to gain some measure of value from every enrolled Week that's been converted to DC Points. TUG-savvy owners who choose to convert an enrolled Week to Points acknowledge this form of skim exists and that it is Marriott-induced. While the form you mention is certainly valid, I wouldn't say it's Marriott-induced - the control of how DC Points from a converted Week are used rests solely with the owner who chooses to make the conversion. Marriott has no chance of collecting "orphaned" Points unless an owner leaves Points in that vulnerable position by not using them.

Well, if "surplus" Marriott DC points expire, and don't roll over from year to year, then I would definitely call that a major skim, and certainly by design.
In fact, it would be pretty hard to avoid, wouldn't it? Or can 2012 points be nicely joined to 2013, and 2014, and so on? Then this form of skim would only apply to bonus points issued for joining up.

 

[SueDonJ]

Well, if "surplus" Marriott DC points expire, and don't roll over from year to year, then I would definitely call that a major skim, and certainly by design.
In fact, it would be pretty hard to avoid, wouldn't it? Or can 2012 points be nicely joined to 2013, and 2014, and so on? Then this form of skim would only apply to bonus points issued for joining up.

Isn't there a use-it-or-lose-it deadline in any Points system? I would think there would have to be, because otherwise owners could stockpile from year to year and thoroughly mess up the inventory controls. I'll admit I only know the rules in two Points systems - Marriott's and DVC's - and in both of those you have to either use your Points in their Use Year or bank them into the following year by a certain date. Theoretically, if banking was allowed indefinitely, couldn't a situation arise where there are not enough accommodations for the number of owners who have usage in a certain year?

The 800 bonus Points given as an enrollment incentive have more restrictions on usage than the Points you get from converting an enrolled Week. Bonus Points can't be banked or transferred to another owner, so yes, if you don't manage them carefully then you'll lose however many are "orphaned." You could call that a form of skim, I guess, but the owner didn't actually pay a per-Point fee for them. They're a one-time incentive and if I lost them because of the expiration rules, it would be difficult for me to think that Marriott "cheated" me out of something. At least not in the way that most TUGgers say they feel cheated by the skim that exists when a Points allotment is not enough to book the same Week given up for the Points.

Those types of Points have more usage options than the one-time Bonus Points, in that they can be banked into the next year or transferred in a private transaction to another DC Points enrollee/owner. Or a reservation made with them could be rented to anyone. Granted, there are still deadlines for using them and if you don't manage to use all of them you will eventually lose them. But that responsibility for managing them falls on the owner, not on Marriott. That's why I say that if you want to call such loss a skim it makes a certain sense but IMO it's not similar to the built-in skim that occurs with a majority of Marriott Weeks, which automatically gives Marriott value each time an enrollee converts those certain Weeks to Points.

It really all comes down to, in both Points and Weeks systems owners stand to lose usage if they do not manage the ownership according to the rules. Points systems allow more of the "orphan" situations because Points can be broken up for single-day use, and Points requirements for stays may not be uniform across all resorts within a system. (Which, they're not uniform in both Marriott's and Disney's systems.) But I've also learned reading TUG that there are a certain percentage of timeshare owners who do not use their ownership at all, so obviously plenty of Weeks go un-used too. If we call those situations "skim" then I guess we have to call non-usage of any Points "skim" as well. But the "blame" (if that's the correct word and I'm not sure it is) for this new form of skim lies with the owner who didn't use them, and not with Marriott. If the owner manages every Point allotted according to the rules, just like with Weeks, Marriott has no way of taking added value from them.

 

[OldPantry]

Isn't there a use-it-or-lose-it deadline in any Points system? I would think there would have to be, because otherwise owners could stockpile from year to year and thoroughly mess up the inventory controls. I'll admit I only know the rules in two Points systems - Marriott's and DVC's - and in both of those you have to either use your Points in their Use Year or bank them into the following year by a certain date. Theoretically, if banking was allowed indefinitely, couldn't a situation arise where there are not enough accommodations for the number of owners who have usage in a certain year?

The 800 bonus Points given as an enrollment incentive have more restrictions on usage than the Points you get from converting an enrolled Week. Bonus Points can't be banked or transferred to another owner, so yes, if you don't manage them carefully then you'll lose however many are "orphaned." You could call that a form of skim, I guess, but the owner didn't actually pay a per-Point fee for them. They're a one-time incentive and if I lost them because of the expiration rules, it would be difficult for me to think that Marriott "cheated" me out of something. At least not in the way that most TUGgers say they feel cheated by the skim that exists when a Points allotment is not enough to book the same Week given up for the Points.

Those types of Points have more usage options than the one-time Bonus Points, in that they can be banked into the next year or transferred in a private transaction to another DC Points enrollee/owner. Or a reservation made with them could be rented to anyone. Granted, there are still deadlines for using them and if you don't manage to use all of them you will eventually lose them. But that responsibility for managing them falls on the owner, not on Marriott. That's why I say that if you want to call such loss a skim it makes a certain sense but IMO it's not similar to the built-in skim that occurs with a majority of Marriott Weeks, which automatically gives Marriott value each time an enrollee converts those certain Weeks to Points.

It really all comes down to, in both Points and Weeks systems owners stand to lose usage if they do not manage the ownership according to the rules. Points systems allow more of the "orphan" situations because Points can be broken up for single-day use, and Points requirements for stays may not be uniform across all resorts within a system. (Which, they're not uniform in both Marriott's and Disney's systems.) But I've also learned reading TUG that there are a certain percentage of timeshare owners who do not use their ownership at all, so obviously plenty of Weeks go un-used too. If we call those situations "skim" then I guess we have to call non-usage of any Points "skim" as well. But the "blame" (if that's the correct word and I'm not sure it is) for this new form of skim lies with the owner who didn't use them, and not with Marriott. If the owner manages every Point allotted according to the rules, just like with Weeks, Marriott has no way of taking added value from them.

No, your explanation clarifies the difference between the use 'em or lose 'em nature of the bonus points, which clearly do have skim built in, as one is unlikely to be able to use exactly 800 points. If you can bank 2012 points for full usage in 2013, then any failure to use them is, as you say, the owner's responsibility.

 

[Gaff]

It is really amazing watching the postings of those that have joined trying to convince those that haven't joined that they are missing an opportunity. I do not believe that Marriott has any plans to invest in building any more timeshares. It seems that they are quietly trying to pry themselves loose while still making a buck as they exit. I recently purchased 2 Marriott Custom Houses for a combined $11,000. Marriott made no effort (ROFR) to lock them up for their 'Destinations' inventory. It is my unsolicited advice to those who have not joined or are on the fence to wait and see. I am always suspicious when someone tells me that if I don't buy now I won't be able to. That is the sales pitch of a desperate man!!!!

 

[robichaudj]

On the fence...advice welcome

We own EOY 1 bed/OF at Kauai beach club, on the fence on enrolling at $1500 (we bought external, Marriott values our week at 3375 points). We typically use, have never exchanged through II, but would love to get points that we could use to get into Waiohai.

For example, we could convert half our 3375 to 54K MR points, bank the other half into the following year, the during that next calendar year we could borrow forward from the following year to get 5062 points to use for Waiohai. We're basically swapping two years use of a 1 bed for one year use of a 2 bed (and some MR points).

Is that worth $1500?
Is it easier to just try and swap our KBC (and some cash) for Waiohai with an interested Waiohai owner on TUG?
Are we naive to think the points would get us access to Waiohai (as we would be in line behind the Waiohai owners...)?

Just came back from Kauai, sales rep tried to sell us on enrolling pretty hard, he also acknowledged Marriott was keeping inventory out of II.

All advice from seasoned TUG users is welcome.

 

[robichaudj]

Relative to Gaff's post

...agree no new timeshare builds anytime soon, note that Marriott corporation has spun the timeshare business off as a stand alone corporation.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703584804576144633684101742.html

 

[SueDonJ]

We own EOY 1 bed/OF at Kauai beach club, on the fence on enrolling at $1500 (we bought external, Marriott values our week at 3375 points). We typically use, have never exchanged through II, but would love to get points that we could use to get into Waiohai.

For example, we could convert half our 3375 to 54K MR points, bank the other half into the following year, the during that next calendar year we could borrow forward from the following year to get 5062 points to use for Waiohai. We're basically swapping two years use of a 1 bed for one year use of a 2 bed (and some MR points).

Is that worth $1500?
Is it easier to just try and swap our KBC (and some cash) for Waiohai with an interested Waiohai owner on TUG?
Are we naive to think the points would get us access to Waiohai (as we would be in line behind the Waiohai owners...)?

Just came back from Kauai, sales rep tried to sell us on enrolling pretty hard, he also acknowledged Marriott was keeping inventory out of II.

All advice from seasoned TUG users is welcome.

It's true that if you enroll your Week, you will gain the Marriott Rewards exchange option that you do not have now because your Week was an external resale. But unless the rules have changed, you cannot convert one enrolled Week to DC Points and then convert only half of those DC Points to MR Points. You'll have the option to EITHER convert your enrolled Week to DC Points OR convert your enrolled Week to MR Points. Only owners of purchased DC Trust Points can convert a portion of those to MR Points.

*I just looked at the Marriott Rewards-related document that specifies the rules for enrolled Weeks, and don't find any evidence of changes. These two rules would apply to your enrolled Week:

- An Eligible Member desiring to trade his Use Period for Marriott Rewards points through the Program for any Use Year must trade the entire Use Period associated with the Interest. ...
and
-An Eligible Member who did not have the ability to trade the use of their Interest in a particular Use Year for Marriott Rewards points prior to enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program shall receive the amount of Marriott Rewards points for each traded Interest as specified in the applicable Resort Rules & Regulations for the resort where the Interest is located. If the applicable Resort Rules & Regulations for the resort where the Interest is located does not identify the amount of Marriott Rewards points to be received for the traded Interest, then the Eligible Member shall not have the ability to trade the use of their Interest for Marriott Rewards points after enrollment in the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. The option to trade the Use Period associated with the Exchange Member’s Interest per season for Marriott Rewards points shall be limited to non-successive Use Years; i.e. trades may not be made two (2) years in a row, or in the case of an every-other-year Eligible Member, at least three (3) years must separate Use Years in which trades are made, as specified in the Resort Rules & Regulations. The applicable Resort Rules & Regulations for the resort where the Interest is located shall also govern the number of Marriott Rewards points the Eligible Member may receive for the assignment of a Use Period associated with the Exchange Member’s Interest.

Generally, enrollment in the DC makes most sense for owners of multi-weeks or high-demand weeks who exchange fairly frequently, or owners who pay several transaction fees for other transactions (MR exchanges, lock-offs, etc) who might benefit from the all-inclusive Club Dues fee. It makes less sense for owners of single Weeks who do not exchange or use other transactions on an annual basis. In your case, I would expect that what you own should have enough trade power to get you an occasional exchange into Waiohai through II, which doesn't require enrollment. (But admittedly, I don't watch II exchanges closely - I'm just guessing based on what I read on TUG.)

Hopefully somebody else will come along to join the discussion about your specific situation. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[SueDonJ]

It is really amazing watching the postings of those that have joined trying to convince those that haven't joined that they are missing an opportunity. I do not believe that Marriott has any plans to invest in building any more timeshares. It seems that they are quietly trying to pry themselves loose while still making a buck as they exit. I recently purchased 2 Marriott Custom Houses for a combined $11,000. Marriott made no effort (ROFR) to lock them up for their 'Destinations' inventory. It is my unsolicited advice to those who have not joined or are on the fence to wait and see. I am always suspicious when someone tells me that if I don't buy now I won't be able to. That is the sales pitch of a desperate man!!!!

I also don't believe that Marriott (the new Marrriott Vacations Worldwide Co, I mean) will be building new resorts anytime soon; hardly any timeshare developers are planning new resorts in this economy! But they could never build another and there are still enough in the network that we could visit a new one every year for a long, long time.

Just in case there is some misunderstanding in this thread, most of us who fully understand the new Destinations Club and recommend enrolling in it do so only when we know the details about what an owner has and how s/he uses it. What's wrong with recommending it when it appears that a certain owner will benefit from it? IMO, nothing, so long as we explain to whoever is asking why we're recommending it. And, so long as we don't recommend it when it doesn't appear to make sense, like my post just before this one.

 

[robichaudj]

Info from Marriott rep online

Thanks Susan
Your read on transfer to MReward points was correct, only available for all, or none, of my DC points, and only available for every other usage year. Clearly a none starter for me, really appreciate your feedback.

I had the sales rep at Kauai Lagoons tell me the opposite (and he had a complete read on our specific situation as external owners).

Happy traveling

 

[Quilter]

We enrolled shortly after the program was announced. It was a no-brainer for us with 7 weeks that we lock-off and trade. 4 weeks developer, 3 weeks resale meant we paid the top price to enroll but I went ahead and enrolled them all for the simplicity. Didn't want 2 II accounts and there may come the day we want to turn them all in for the DC points. I played the mental game that for roughly $2,000 all my weeks became equal. If, at the time we bought the resale weeks, I was given the option of paying an extra $665 per week ($1,995/3) to make it as legit as the developer weeks, I would have. Now they're not only equal but we have many more options for how we use them.

 

[rrlongwell]

We enrolled shortly after the program was announced. It was a no-brainer for us with 7 weeks that we lock-off and trade. 4 weeks developer, 3 weeks resale meant we paid the top price to enroll but I went ahead and enrolled them all for the simplicity. Didn't want 2 II accounts and there may come the day we want to turn them all in for the DC points. I played the mental game that for roughly $2,000 all my weeks became equal. If, at the time we bought the resale weeks, I was given the option of paying an extra $665 per week ($1,995/3) to make it as legit as the developer weeks, I would have. Now they're not only equal but we have many more options for how we use them.

Am I understanding your post correctly? Marriott is giving an offer to take re-sale owned weeks and give them full standing for modest fees?

 

[Quilter]

Am I understanding your post correctly? Marriott is giving an offer to take re-sale owned weeks and give them full standing for modest fees?

As I mentioned in my post, we enrolled last July which was shortly after the program was announced. Our resale weeks were all purchased way before the cut off date of June 20, 2010 and, therefore, eligible for enrollment.

Actually, my math in the previous post wasn't exactly correct. If all the weeks had been developer it would have cost $695 to enroll so the real difference was $1,300. Each resale week cost roughly $433 to enroll. Two of these weeks are Platinum Ocean Pointe oceanfront and my highest DC point values at 5375. I definitely wanted to get them enrolled.

 

[dundeeyank]

Enrolled

I have three weeks at M Frenchman's cove. I am using the 800 Club points for 5 nights at Legends Edge in Panama City Fl in April because it is close to me. I have reserved 11 days at Christmas time at the same resort. I have combined my 2013 weeks, a single 12 week and a single 14 week for the African safari in 2013.. So my plan is

"the Cove" 25 Feb to 10 March this year
Legends Edge April
Legends Edge Christmas and New Years
Africa for 14 day in April 2013
Still looking at what we will do in 2014..

Satisfied so far. I just wish it didn't cost $1300+ for us to fly to St Thomas.

 

[SDKath]

How hard is it to book high demand weeks using points? For example, we own Shadow Ridge (resale, Platinum) and if we join DC, could we use our points to book Marriott Mountainside for 4-5 days in the Spring sometime (Feb or March)?

How would I go about figuring this out? So far, we have used it very successfully to lock off and trade via II but MOU never comes up in II in the ski season.

Thanks! Katherine

 

[GregT]

How hard is it to book high demand weeks using points? For example, we own Shadow Ridge (resale, Platinum) and if we join DC, could we use our points to book Marriott Mountainside for 4-5 days in the Spring sometime (Feb or March)?

How would I go about figuring this out? So far, we have used it very successfully to lock off and trade via II but MOU never comes up in II in the ski season.

Thanks! Katherine

Katherine, sending you a PM. Thx

 

[lancejr]

What is "skim"

Hi,

I keep seeing the term "skim" in a lot of threads. Can someone tell me what that is?

 

[SueDonJ]

Hi,

I keep seeing the term "skim" in a lot of threads. Can someone tell me what that is?

Basically, "skim" is the term that TUGgers gave to the difference in the number of DC Points that Marriott allotted to a certain Week versus how many DC Points it would cost to reserve that same Week. For example, a Barony Beach Gold OF unit is allotted 3,725 DC Points if it's enrolled in the DC, but it costs 4,000 DC Points to book a Barony Gold OF week. That 75 Points difference is the skim.

The overwhelming majority of the existing Weeks suffer skim in the DC, but there are a very few where it cost an equal or lesser amount to book the same week when it's converted to DC Points.

The fact that you don't have to convert an enrolled Week to DC Points for home resort usage in season, that you can still book that Week in the traditional way, mitigates the skim factor somewhat for some folks on TUG. But, there are also many who say that the skim doesn't impact only home resort usage, that every enrolled Week which is converted to DC Points for exchanges through the DC Exchange Company, results in that week being less valuable for like-to-like exchanges.

 

[lancejr]

Basically, "skim" is the term that TUGgers gave to the difference in the number of DC Points that Marriott allotted to a certain Week versus how many DC Points it would cost to reserve that same Week. For example, a Barony Beach Gold OF unit is allotted 3,725 DC Points if it's enrolled in the DC, but it costs 4,000 DC Points to book a Barony Gold OF week. That 75 Points difference is the skim.

The overwhelming majority of the existing Weeks suffer skim in the DC, but there are a very few where it cost an equal or lesser amount to book the same week when it's converted to DC Points.

The fact that you don't have to convert an enrolled Week to DC Points for home resort usage in season, that you can still book that Week in the traditional way, mitigates the skim factor somewhat for some folks on TUG. But, there are also many who say that the skim doesn't impact only home resort usage, that every enrolled Week which is converted to DC Points for exchanges through the DC Exchange Company, results in that week being less valuable for like-to-like exchanges.

Thank you!!

 

[Gaff]

Just returned from a Marriott stay in California and attended my 4th 'Destinations' presentation. The Rep was very professional and knew that I was a non starter because of my experience and proceeded to give me the cliff note version of the sales pitch. He was very willing to answer all my questions. I was struck by several points that were brought up.

1 ~ I had to pay an initiation fee for the privilage
2 ~ I would lose the lock off feature of my resorts (full unit is enrolled)
3 ~ The pts received for my units would be less than pts required to stay at my home resorts
4 ~ You can join the program without having a unit to enroll in the system

I questioned about the fact that people joining without units would create a shortage of available units. He stated that members would be spread out over:

short term stays (2-3 dys), sea cruises, plane fares, hotel stays etc..

I couldn't understand how anyone (who didn't have to) would go to the trouble and expense of plane travel for a 3dy stay (check in 4pm ~ check out 10am = 1dy stay) . I also didn't understand why you would use a timeshare for plane fare when you can get it for free with rewards charge cards. Finally, I was laughing when I told him that for 20yrs they were trying to sell me timeshares by showing me how dismal and uncomfortable hotel rooms were in comparison to timeshares ~ now they wanted me to give up my timeshare to go back to hotel rooms.......

In the end he confirmed that I used my timeshares in exactly the way they were designed and that the 'Destinations' program would not enhance my vacation experiences in any way.

 

[billymach4]

Just returned from a Marriott stay in California and attended my 4th 'Destinations' presentation. The Rep was very professional and knew that I was a non starter because of my experience and proceeded to give me the cliff note version of the sales pitch. He was very willing to answer all my questions. I was struck by several points that were brought up.

1 ~ I had to pay an initiation fee for the privilage
2 ~ I would lose the lock off feature of my resorts (full unit is enrolled)
3 ~ The pts received for my units would be less than pts required to stay at my home resorts
4 ~ You can join the program without having a unit to enroll in the system

I questioned about the fact that people joining without units would create a shortage of available units. He stated that members would be spread out over:

short term stays (2-3 dys), sea cruises, plane fares, hotel stays etc..

I couldn't understand how anyone (who didn't have to) would go to the trouble and expense of plane travel for a 3dy stay (check in 4pm ~ check out 10am = 1dy stay) . I also didn't understand why you would use a timeshare for plane fare when you can get it for free with rewards charge cards. Finally, I was laughing when I told him that for 20yrs they were trying to sell me timeshares by showing me how dismal and uncomfortable hotel rooms were in comparison to timeshares ~ now they wanted me to give up my timeshare to go back to hotel rooms.......

In the end he confirmed that I used my timeshares in exactly the way they were designed and that the 'Destinations' program would not enhance my vacation experiences in any way.

Gaff,

You are on the money!