Definitive (I believe) answers to some important points program questions

[BocaBum99]

I'll also address this earlier post by Marilyn (m61376):I don't think you will get that confirmation, Marilyn, just as you wouldn't have been able to get a similar confirmation in the past that Marriott wouldn't try to reserve more than its fair share of weeks for (e.g.) July 4th week at a beach resort using weeks under its control.

Bottom line: It's exactly the same competition from points owners that we have had in the past from Marriott with respect to weeks that were under its control.

I don't think it is "exactly" the same competition as in the past. I believe that a weeks owners will up their right to get in line for a reservation to a points owner and Marriott will find away to process the request of the points owner prior to the request of a weeks owner thereby making it more difficult than in the past for a weeks owner to get a reservation.

Sure, the process will be the same, but the competition will be more fierce within that process.

For instance, let's say there are 100 owners of platinum weeks fighting for various weeks in their season. Further, let's assume that there are only 10 prime July 4th slots. In the past, there may have only been 40 people wanting a July 4th slot. So, only 1 in 4 would get their request fulfilled.

Now, with points owners substituted into weeks owner's slots, there may be 80 who want to go for July 4. So, even if the assignment is random by lottery, the probability of assignment is only 1 in 8. Someone is going to lose and the losers will be defined by the order in which Marriott process requests.

 

[RedDogSD]

I don't think it is "exactly" the same competition as in the past. I believe that a weeks owners will up their right to get in line for a reservation to a points owner and Marriott will find away to process the request of the points owner prior to the request of a weeks owner thereby making it more difficult than in the past for a weeks owner to get a reservation.

Sure, the process will be the same, but the competition will be more fierce within that process.

For instance, let's say there are 100 owners of platinum weeks fighting for various weeks in their season. Further, let's assume that there are only 10 prime July 4th slots. In the past, there may have only been 40 people wanting a July 4th slot. So, only 1 in 4 would get their request fulfilled.

Now, with points owners substituted into weeks owner's slots, there may be 80 who want to go for July 4. So, even if the assignment is random by lottery, the probability of assignment is only 1 in 8. Someone is going to lose and the losers will be defined by the order in which Marriott process requests.

You are making two large assumptions:

1.) Marriott is going to find a way to let the points owners get their weeks before weeks owners. This is a very PerryM like statement about the corporation being out to screw the little guy. I don't see it...but nothing I can say will convince you. I don't think Marriott is trying to screw the weeks owners and I think they still want to keep us happy so that we may eventually join their program when we see that the flexibiilty is nice but our old system still works.

2.) You are also assuming that the points owners who take the places of weeks owners want the prime weeks more than the weeks owners that they replaced. Why would you assume that? The points system penalizes you for trying for prime weeks. Frankly, if I convert, I am going to look for EVERY opportunity to take the lower points weeks so that I can stretch my points. Why would you assume that everyone is going to try to get the TOP weeks which will suck up all of their points. If they want prime weeks, they should reserve a good week at home resort and use Interval for a fair trade.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon

MVCD has "bet the ranch" on this one!!! You can be sure they are not going blindly into this knowing that the only inventory in"points" will be unsold units, returned units for MR points and "rental" units from a non existental rental program. With the "skim" they missed a golden opportunity to get many primo owner weeks in the system!!! Thus they are going to have do anything within the "letter" of the law for inventory in "points".

The worst nightmare is a bunch of Premium Plus new points purchasers that can't trade weeks screaming that we bought all this and we can't go anywhere!!!

 

[DanCali]

Now, as to what weeks are available within their pool, good question. For each time period that opens up, they would have to have some limitation. They could not let the 15 Orlando resort owners, who only have the right to try to reserve 10% of the Hawaii weeks, all take 100% of the 4th of July weekly intervals, or something like that. I am sure that the system was programmed in a somewhat fair manner where if 10% of the weeks are available to the Points pool, then they can only take 10% of the total weeks available within each weekly interval. Maybe not EXACTLY 10%, but I am not worried about it being unfair.

Don't be so sure...This is exactly the point people are worried about. What you describe above is how it should be. The only think Marriott has said that that, based on your example, Orlando owners will not reserve more than 10% of Hawaii weeks (generalized to 1-52 float). There is nothing about limiting availability of a given week. Since the 4th of July week is only about 2% of available weeks, it is definitely possible that points owners could get that entire week.

Marriott has said that all owners will have a week in their season. If they let the owners from the 15 Orlando resorts reserve any more than 10% of the weeks, then the Hawaii owners will be unable to reserve them, which is contrary to what they are saying.

Also, please note that an owner is guaranteed a week in their season only as long as they call before the season starts. If a Hawaii owner calls in April wanting an October reservation, they can always be told some weeks in Feb went unused, but everything going forward is fully booked - so though luck. When you have owners from 50 resorts competing for the weeks, the odds of everything going forward being fully booked are also higher. This makes calling early much more critical, even if you don't care what week you get.

 

[davidvel]

"Marriott is committed to ensuring that every weeks owner is able to reserve a week within their season." - I'm touched that they are committed to ensuring we get our deeded rights... - did they at some point consider taking those away too?

The above sentiment is directly on point on this issue. Yes, you will always get a week in your season. Period, end of story. Marriott is only committed to assuring our deeded rights? That's scary that their executive would even make such a statement. That's like saying they are committed to assuring the check-in clerk won't shoot you. Well, I hope so.

Further, if Marriott owns some unsold weeks at that resort, Marriott has always been able to compete with us to make reservations for those weeks and, similarly, will be able to do so for points owners once those unsold weeks are deposited in the trust.

Essentially, no change. Same number of weeks available to points owners as are available to Marriott to reserve now.
. . .

Thus, it’s a zero-sum game. There should be just as many weeks available and just the same competition for reserving weeks as there are now.

On the other hand, if you choose to believe a conspiracy theory - that Marriott has a plan to treat us unfairly in the reservation process and somehow circumvent the limitations on reservations to illegally shut out weeks owners, I can't help with that. But I don't believe it.

There may not be a change in how they do it, but that doesn't mean they have been doing it right to date. And has been noted, Marriott may have much different incentives now for getting prime weeks than it did in the past; and it will likely control many more weeks than it did in the past.

People have always complained about calling in reservations 1 minute after they open and not getting a prime week. Was it because other non-Marriott owners all called in just before you? Or was it because Marriott's computers snapped up 10, 15, 25, 50% of the available reservations 5 minutes before they opened the phone/computer lines?

The concern is that this problem may get even worse.

The problem is we don't know how Marriott has reserved its weeks up to now. Have they used their computers ahead of regular owners? (not allowed by my CCRs.) Have they used some percentage method? (not allowed by my CCRs.) Have they contended they own multiple weeks and always reserved the best weeks at 13 months? (not allowed by my CCRs.)

The "theory" is based on facts. Marriott obviously reserved/will reserve its weeks through some computer process, not by hiring thousands of people to call in on their behalf. They control those computers. They don't tell us how the process works. They have incentives to "game the system." We would never know...

Now they set up a system where they are promising platinum members that they will reserve weeks for them (weeks Marriott's trust owns) 13 months in advance (if the week is available). My CCRs state that the developer does not have the right to utilize 13 month priority. Are they now going to argue the Trust can (that it's a distinctive entity)?

They tell us to blindly trust them.

Simply put, the concerns about priority reservations are valid. There are a lot of REAL, RATIONAL CONCERNS. Calling it a "conspiracy theory" unfairly denigrates the concerns as unfounded or kooky, and minimize the person's concerns as invalid.

 

[RedDogSD]

Don't be so sure...This is exactly the point people are worried about. What you describe above is how it should be. The only think Marriott has said that that, based on your example, Orlando owners will not reserve more than 10% of Hawaii weeks (generalized to 1-52 float). There is nothing about limiting availability of a given week. Since the 4th of July week is only about 2% of available weeks, it is definitely possible that points owners could get that entire week.

I fall back to basic Economic theory. Most Platinum Orlando, Platinum Palm Desert, Platinum Newport Coast, and many other places get 2500-4000 points per year. The lowest trade in to Maui Ocean Club is 6400 points and the top week takes 9000 points. I think that as many people as possible will try to figure out if they can find a way to use one of the lower demand weeks since it will be very hard for them to come up with the 8000-9000 points to get the TOP week. So, while you might be right that they CAN reserve them, I have no fear that they are going to try.

I myself am planning on working as hard as I can to get the TOP weeks in top resorts. However, I plan on using Interval as there, my Platinum desert week has a 1:1 relationship with any other top week in the system. I would not be wiling to bank 2010 points, use 2011 points and borrow 2012 points ($3300 in MF's and 3 years of usage) just to get 1 great week in Maui. No thanks. If you think that is going to happen on a grand scale, then you do not understand human behavior. Points are just like cash, and people do not part with them easily.

Also, please note that an owner is guaranteed a week in their season only as long as they call before the season starts. If a Hawaii owner calls in April wanting an October reservation, they can always be told some weeks in Feb went unused, but everything going forward is fully booked - so though luck. When you have owners from 50 resorts competing for the weeks, the odds of everything going forward being fully booked are also higher. This makes calling early much more critical, even if you don't care what week you get.

That is no different than any Floating system.... At 12 months out, weeks are released. By the time you get to the end of your season, most other owners should no longer be competing with you since they already got their reservation, so you should be fine.

 

[m61376]

Now, as to what weeks are available within their pool, good question. For each time period that opens up, they would have to have some limitation. They could not let the 15 Orlando resort owners, who only have the right to try to reserve 10% of the Hawaii weeks, all take 100% of the 4th of July weekly intervals, or something like that. I am sure that the system was programmed in a somewhat fair manner where if 10% of the weeks are available to the Points pool, then they can only take 10% of the total weeks available within each weekly interval. Maybe not EXACTLY 10%, but I am not worried about it being unfair.

That is exactly the clarification I have asked for and am awaiting. You cannot simply assume that; most people here aren't making that assumption. Most would LIKE it to be that way, but that doesn't mean those restrictions will, in fact, be in place.

 

[RedDogSD]

That is exactly the clarification I have asked for and am awaiting. You cannot simply assume that; most people here aren't making that assumption. Most would LIKE it to be that way, but that doesn't mean those restrictions will, in fact, be in place.

I got $50 that points owners will be fighting harder over the weeks that are perceived as a better value than the top weeks. For example....I think it will be very hard for them to get the last week in Palm Desert before the points switch from 2700 to 4200 and the last week in May at Newport where the points go from 2900 to 4225. Anyone willing to take me up on that bet? You will lose $50.

Ever been to a SALE? Why do people go. They go to get items that are in less demand, but they are perceived as having a higher VALUE. Anyone can buy stuff at full price, but people want value for their dollars, and these points will be no different.

 

[m61376]

I myself am planning on working as hard as I can to get the TOP weeks in top resorts. However, I plan on using Interval as there, my Platinum desert week has a 1:1 relationship with any other top week in the system. I would not be wiling to bank 2010 points, use 2011 points and borrow 2012 points ($3300 in MF's and 3 years of usage) just to get 1 great week in Maui. No thanks. If you think that is going to happen on a grand scale, then you do not understand human behavior. Points are just like cash, and people do not part with them easily.

I think you are forgetting one major difference- in most (possibly all) resorts the first weeks to be sold out are the Platinum weeks. There are many resorts that are not quite sold out, but all the Platinum inventory is gone.

Now- along comes this wonderful new system- and Marriott can now sell ANY buyer who walks in the door the point equivalent and the expectation of booking that Platinum week. So, in essence, Marriott is packaging the points from less desirable weeks and selling them as having access to those premium weeks. And, yes, the same as all those people who were willing to shell out 50-80K before to book those summer or other prime weeks, will now be willing to buy enough points to book them. The only difference- and it is a big difference- is that before Marriott couldn't oversell weeks- they were limited to the deeded week inventory- but now there aren't those restrictions.

Many mocked Perry for his doomsday approach, but he was right in one thing- Marriott salespeople will be selling the dream of booking those high demand weeks, over and over again.

And you can't extrapolate your week owner's mentality to that of a new point's owner- a week's owner may choke at paying 3 years of MF's for that trade, when they could get it through II on an even basis with some luck before, but a new points owner- well- that's all they know, and sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

[SueDonJ]

I think the concern here that Marriott won't allocate inventory per check-in day is completely justified, especially as Dave has brought up the point that in the past we didn't have any reason to believe that Marriott did take their "fair share" of Owner inventory.

What some people did have, though, were verbal reassurances from Marriott that the 12- and 13-mo inventory was allocated on a per check-in day basis. It doesn't appear to me that the existing contracts support that as a requirement, but for whatever reason it does appear to be the way that they implemented the Reservation Procedures. It doesn't seem unreasonable for us to ask and get a definitive answer as to whether or not Marriott will act in all Owners best interests by implementing a similar per-check-in-day allotment for Weeks and Points owners now.

Granted, we did have some protection from Marriott reserving their weeks with 13-mo rule because the governing docs for certain resorts (SurfWatch is one, Barony Beach is not) excluded Marriott from using the 13-mo rule for the inventory it held as Owner. But we don't know if they conformed to that, do we? And as limited as that protection was (or if it was even practiced,) it appears we don't have any now.

 

[m61376]

I got $50 that points owners will be fighting harder over the weeks that are perceived as a better value than the top weeks. For example....I think it will be very hard for them to get the last week in Palm Desert before the points switch from 2700 to 4200 and the last week in May at Newport where the points go from 2900 to 4225. Anyone willing to take me up on that bet? You will lose $50.

Ever been to a SALE? Why do people go. They go to get items that are in less demand, but they are perceived as having a higher VALUE. Anyone can buy stuff at full price, but people want value for their dollars, and these points will be no different.

Fringe weeks were always in highest demand- equivalent to a sale, as you put it, on essentially the same quality.

That doesn't eliminate the fact that there will be many buyers for the real premium product- not the fringe one that's almost as good. There is always the market that wants what they want- or need. If you have kids that get out of school June 25th, that June 17th week just doesn't cut it, even f0or half off. Similarly, is doesn't matter if the first week in September is a bargain compared to the last week in August for those with kids in school.

 

[FlyerBobcat]

....Using a slightly different example at Grande Ocean, there will be even more competition for the weeks from late May to mid June. These are gold weeks at Grande Ocean but platinum at all the other ocean resorts on HHI. These weeks are booked within one minute of availability. Currently, I can reserve my 5 gold weeks around May 14 and run them all the way to platinum and add platinum weeks to the same reservation. If Marriott owns bronze, silver and gold, they could see the 13 month window starting in December 2010 to book a reservation taking one unit for each week from Jan 1, 2012 through late May 2012 and then concurrently take all the 13 month gold units on the same reservation. Yes, this is unlikely but I am going to expect more of these weeks gone long before current owners can reserve them.

Not this this is exactly relevant to this interesting discussion... but note that these "top" gold weeks are now peak season to those obtaining weeks with points at MGO.

May 27 – Aug 25, 2011...... Full Week = 4,500 (OS) 5,400 (OF)

 

[hotcoffee]

The concern is that I do not want to compete with exchangers at all. Prior to this nonsense I only competed with other owners who could book 13 months out. I do not want to exchange. I think my saving grace is that the Aruba Ocean Club is sold out.

Actually you might be competing with some exchangers now. If one of the OF owners deposits his unit into II, an exchanger would get it. I don't see any difference in the future except that the exchanger might now be an enrolled points member rather than coming in via II.

How do you see things changing now that the points program has been rolled out.

 

[rsackett]

Thanks Dave for getting answers to may of our questions.

One question I still have as a person who can only resurve my week at 12 months is; In the past reservations made under the 13 month rule were limited to 50% of any given week. Is this still true? Or are weeks members using their weeks to resurve limited to 50% and points users could take the other 50% leaving no reservations for a July 4th week avaiable at 12 months?

Ray

 

[vincenzi]

We were only given 3,850 points for our gold front at MGO. Is is because it is a resale?

Before the new program came out, I reserved our week for next year. We will stay from June 10 - 17th.

 

[hipslo]

Actually you might be competing with some exchangers now. If one of the OF owners deposits his unit into II, an exchanger would get it. I don't see any difference in the future except that the exchanger might now be an enrolled points member rather than coming in via II.

How do you see things changing now that the points program has been rolled out.

An owner has to reserve the week before it is deposited into II. So in your example there is not direct competition with exchangers for the initial reservation.

 

[rsackett]

We were only given 3,850 points for our gold front at MGO. Is is because it is a resale?

Before the new program came out, I reserved our week for next year. We will stay from June 10 - 17th.

All owners at a given resort were given the same number of points for the same season. It did not matter how the week was bought.

Ray

 

[DanCali]

Not this this is exactly relevant to this interesting discussion... but note that these "top" gold weeks are now peak season to those obtaining weeks with points at MGO.

May 27 – Aug 25, 2011...... Full Week = 4,500 (OS) 5,400 (OF)

We were only given 3,850 points for our gold front at MGO. Is is because it is a resale?

Resale and retail got the short end of the stick equally.

You got less than the top Gold weeks because owners got about 88%-93% of the average points required to exchange into their resort in their season. The difference from 100% of the average points in the season is referred to as "skimming". It basically limits your ability to do "like for like" exchanges using points.

 

[hotcoffee]

Wow. This is almost like mass hysteria. Since I plan to enroll, I hope you all are correct. I would love to be given a huge advantage in grabbing those prime weeks at the best resorts. Sigh! I doubt it will happen though, because unless you exchange them, I ain't gonna get them.

 

[bw3]

Grande Ocean points

Not this this is exactly relevant to this interesting discussion... but note that these "top" gold weeks are now peak season to those obtaining weeks with points at MGO.

May 27 – Aug 25, 2011...... Full Week = 4,500 (OS) 5,400 (OF)

Tom,

Thanks for pointing that out. All the more reason that Marriott might like to reserve these weeks because they can now require 4,500 (oceanside) instead of 3,450 (the remainder of gold season weeks).

Bob

 

[LAX Mom]

AFAIK, Summitt Watch is not sold out.

There might be some bronze (and possibly silver) weeks available at Summit Watch, but I'm pretty sure that both Mountainside and Summit Watch long ago sold out of the platinum (ski) weeks.

My point is that there will be increased demand on many sold-out resorts/seasons. Prospective buyers will have the expectation that they can buy a bunch of points and trade into Hawaii, summer beach weeks, ski weeks, etc.

In reality Marriott can only give them the inventory that a current owner trades in for points. I think there will be many new owners who will be very disappointed at the exchanges they can get for points.

 

[m61376]

We were only given 3,850 points for our gold front at MGO. Is is because it is a resale?

Before the new program came out, I reserved our week for next year. We will stay from June 10 - 17th.

No- resales and direct purchasers receive the same allotment. It doesn't matter that you were able to reserve the best week in your season in the past- you are given either the average or in some cases less than it costs to book any week in your season.

oops- that's what you get for answering before reading- sorry for the repetition

 

[hipslo]

Wow. This is almost like mass hysteria. Since I plan to enroll, I hope you all are correct. I would love to be given a huge advantage in grabbing those prime weeks at the best resorts. Sigh! I doubt it will happen though, because unless you exchange them, I ain't gonna get them.

I dont think points owners will have a "huge advantage", I am just not looking forward to competing with all of them at 13 months for the 50% of prime week inventory that had formerly been set aside only for multiple week owners. Even on an even playing field, increased competition is increased competition.

That said, I dont think you're going to find that it is particularly easy to snag prime weeks in points, either.

 

[RedDogSD]

I dont think points owners will have a "huge advantage", I am just not looking forward to competing with all of them at 13 months for the 50% of prime week inventory that had formerly been set aside only for multiple week owners. Even on an even playing field, increased competition is increased competition.

That said, I dont think you're going to find that it is particularly easy to snag prime weeks in points, either.

Why does everyone keep saying "all of them". I thought you had to have 6500 points in order to get the 13 month rule. So, that means that anyone who has less but will be banking/borrowing in order to get enough points will have to wait until the 12 month reservation window opens.

 

[hipslo]

Why does everyone keep saying "all of them". I thought you had to have 6500 points in order to get the 13 month rule. So, that means that anyone who has less but will be banking/borrowing in order to get enough points will have to wait until the 12 month reservation window opens.

Thats true, it just seemed to me that folks would be unlikely to pay 2 or 3 years worth of maintenance fees for a single week's vacation when the cost to rent the same week would would be less than that, but who knows.