COVID-19 'has NO credible natural ancestor' and WAS created by Chinese scientists who then tried to cover their tracks with 'retro-engineering'

[Fried_shrimp]

It matters to me. It should have sone diplomatic repercussions . It literally stopped the world for over a year. China should be held accountable.

How, in a way that doesn't start WW3? While I agree there should be some kind of accountability, in reality there is no way to do that short of war. China owns more of the US debt than any other country so forget any fiscal pressure. China couldn't care less about political pressure since they are a one party country and they will just kill off any dissenters. So in what way can they be held accountable.

 

[DrQ]

If this was "weaponized" it was effectively like my skeet shooting days when hand loaders were warned to carefully gauge their shells.

If you weren't careful, a slightly smaller gauge shell could get mixed when you load your gun. It would misfire and block the barrel and the next shell would blow up in your face.

COVID-19 caused economic disaster across the board and the Chinese vaccine was not very effective. They may have been studying it for disease control (related to SARS) and sloppy with controls, but this was no "Captain Trips"

 

[Yellowfin]

I can see it as being a nice to know kind of thing. Maybe even put some kind of sanctions on China to hope they don't do it again. But in the grand scheme of things, IMO, it just doesn't really matter.

If we had the suspicion that people died due to a leak at a nuclear reactor, would we not want to investigate the cause of the accident? How can you prevent such events in the future if you do not even know the cause?

How, in a way that doesn't start WW3? While I agree there should be some kind of accountability, in reality there is no way to do that short of war. China owns more of the US debt than any other country so forget any fiscal pressure. China couldn't care less about political pressure since they are a one party country and they will just kill off any dissenters. So in what way can they be held accountable.

I think there are several mechanism for reparations. I am pretty sure the families of many victims would like to have their day in court. War of course is not a solution but that does not mean IMO that there should be no accountability at all

If this was "weaponized" it was effectively like my skeet shooting days when hand loaders were warned to carefully gauge their shells.

If you weren't careful, a slightly smaller gauge shell could get mixed when you load your gun. It would misfire and block the barrel and the next shell would blow up in your face.

COVID-19 caused economic disaster across the board and the Chinese vaccine was not very effective. They may have been studying it for disease control (related to SARS) and sloppy with controls, but this was no "Captain Trips"

Even among those that believe this was a leak from the lab, most think it was an accident. What cannot be ruled out though is that some of the research was done with an eye to possible military applications. This is possibly why the China has not allowed any access to raw data from the Wuhan lab.

In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened.

After seeing a risky lab, they wrote a cable warning to Washington. But it was ignored.

www.politico.com

 

[exco]

I just found this article dated 27 January 2020:

US disease researchers are pushing the government to be more transparent about federally funded research that involves making pathogens more deadly or more transmissible.

Researchers studying viruses in the lab sometimes deliberately make them more dangerous to help prepare better responses to outbreaks that might occur naturally. In 2017, the federal government began requiring that any National Institutes of Health (NIH) grant proposals involving gain-of-function research undergo a review by an expert panel to evaluate the risk of such work against the potential gains.

“We’re not trying to say the policy is wrong, we’re trying to say the policy is ambiguous,” says Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts and one of the researchers calling for greater transparency around such work.

"An expert panel is considering how much to reveal about a largely secret review process of 'gain-of-function' research.

US officials revisit rules for disclosing risky disease experiments

An expert panel is considering how much to reveal about a largely secret review process of 'gain-of-function' research.

www.nature.com

After watching

I wonder how Dr. Fauci and EcoHeath could have funded the Wuhan lab when they were not completely sure whether the Wuhan lab conducted the 'gain-of-function'' experiment.

Dr. Fauci trusted the Chinese scientists, his grant must not have been reviewed by this expert panel about the 'gain-of-function' research.
What are the current rules for disclosing risky disease experiments? US officials must get serious about writing the rules for the 'gain-of-function' research.

 

[nerodog]

How, in a way that doesn't start WW3? While I agree there should be some kind of accountability, in reality there is no way to do that short of war. China owns more of the US debt than any other country so forget any fiscal pressure. China couldn't care less about political pressure since they are a one party country and they will just kill off any dissenters. So in what way can they be held accountable.

That's up to the US Government to decide not me. Lol... glad we agree on accountability. Perhaps gather the allies to create more power and pressure.

 

[nerodog]

If we had the suspicion that people died due to a leak at a nuclear reactor, would we not want to investigate the cause of the accident? How can you prevent such events in the future if you do not even know the cause?



I think there are several mechanism for reparations. I am pretty sure the families of many victims would like to have their day in court. War of course is not a solution but that does not mean IMO that there should be no accountability at all




Even among those that believe this was a leak from the lab, most think it was an accident. What cannot be ruled out though is that some of the research was done with an eye to possible military applications. This is possibly why the China has not allowed any access to raw data from the Wuhan lab.

In 2018, Diplomats Warned of Risky Coronavirus Experiments in a Wuhan Lab. No One Listened.

After seeing a risky lab, they wrote a cable warning to Washington. But it was ignored.

www.politico.com

Totally agree Yellowfin We need to know and prepare for any future new "virus". Just letting by gones be bygones isn't the answer. It's important for the world to know the truth. Why hide it ? Just come clean .Right now it garners lots of mistrust and negative feelings.

 

[nerodog]

I just found this article dated 27 January 2020:

US disease researchers are pushing the government to be more transparent about federally funded research that involves making pathogens more deadly or more transmissible.

Researchers studying viruses in the lab sometimes deliberately make them more dangerous to help prepare better responses to outbreaks that might occur naturally. In 2017, the federal government began requiring that any National Institutes of Health (NIH) grant proposals involving gain-of-function research undergo a review by an expert panel to evaluate the risk of such work against the potential gains.

“We’re not trying to say the policy is wrong, we’re trying to say the policy is ambiguous,” says Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts and one of the researchers calling for greater transparency around such work.

"An expert panel is considering how much to reveal about a largely secret review process of 'gain-of-function' research.

US officials revisit rules for disclosing risky disease experiments

An expert panel is considering how much to reveal about a largely secret review process of 'gain-of-function' research.

www.nature.com

After watching

I wonder how Dr. Fauci and EcoHeath could have funded the Wuhan lab when they were not completely sure whether the Wuhan lab conducted the 'gain-of-function'' experiment.

Dr. Fauci trusted the Chinese scientists, his grant must not have been reviewed by this expert panel about the 'gain-of-function' research.
What are the current rules for disclosing risky disease experiments? US officials must get serious about writing the rules for the 'gain-of-function' research.

Pull back all funding and close the lab!!!

 

[Yellowfin]

Covid: Wuhan lab leak is ‘feasible’, say British spies

British agents now believe it is “feasible” that the global pandemic began with a coronavirus leak from a Chinese research laboratory.In a significant sharpenin

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[Yellowfin]

Washington Post is correcting stories from last year concerning the origins of the virus.

 

[nerodog]

Simply put, it is important to draw attention to the risks of this kind of research that can lead to man-made pandemics.

According to the Hill:
“This is absolutely not a partisan issue. Our recent polling shows that 77 percent of taxpayers want an independent investigation into the origins of COVID, and the majority of Americans want to defund gain of function experiments and to defund the Wuhan Institute of Virology,” Goodman said.

Senate votes to defund Wuhan animal lab and ‘gain-of-function’ experiments in China

This comes after questions about the possible origins of COVID-19.

thehill.com

Amen

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

There is no question in this old microbiologist's mind that this was a gain-of-function escapee. We had the information to determine this back in June 2020. The rest has been widespread "disinformation".

Tinfoil hat? We knew this once the genome had been sequenced.

1. The part that made it so deadly was was not in the bat Corona virus. It was in another strain of Corona virus.
2. The strain that had the changes was only 38 percent similar to COVID-19. That was across the whole virus. It was just a random mutation that changed 62% of the virus? Not bl--dy likely!
3. The bat virus that was claimed to be the source for the mutated virus was also sequenced. Funny it showed not other mutations, other that the virulence factor, in after 5 years. Furthermore it had never been mentioned in their literature, despite hundreds of others bat Corona viruses being listed. We know the Corona viruses mutate, not just in the virulence aspect, but all over, in areas that don't matter to the virus. No other place on the precursor bat virus showed any mutations.

Biologists make trees of all sorts of animal species, tracking the mutations as species evolve. You start with one line, and the there is a mutation split, and then each line has splits, and over and over. The result looks like a branch of a tree, splitting into smaller branches, then twigs, and the leaves (which are the current species). But - and this is a major point - twigs don't jump from one branch to another. That is what was being claims by the "disinformation" campaign.

External information (not genetically related).

Suddenly in early October 2019, the Wuhan lab was cut off to all vehicular traffic for about a week. We know this from satellite imagery. The lab was in a high traffic area (between 2 main roads, both of them shut down). No answer as to why, but it is an awful big coincidence.

You make the call. . .

 

[Conan]

There is no question in this old microbiologist's mind that this was a gain-of-function escapee. We had the information to determine this back in June 2020. The rest has been widespread "disinformation".

Tinfoil hat? We knew this once the genome had been sequenced.

1. The part that made it so deadly was was not in the bat Corona virus. It was in another strain of Corona virus.
2. The strain that had the changes was only 38 percent similar to COVID-19. That was across the whole virus. It was just a random mutation that changed 62% of the virus? Not bl--dy likely!
3. The bat virus that was claimed to be the source for the mutated virus was also sequenced. Funny it showed not other mutations, other that the virulence factor, in after 5 years. Furthermore it had never been mentioned in their literature, despite hundreds of others bat Corona viruses being listed. We know the Corona viruses mutate, not just in the virulence aspect, but all over, in areas that don't matter to the virus. No other place on the precursor bat virus showed any mutations.

Biologists make trees of all sorts of animal species, tracking the mutations as species evolve. You start with one line, and the there is a mutation split, and then each line has splits, and over and over. The result looks like a branch of a tree, splitting into smaller branches, then twigs, and the leaves (which are the current species). But - and this is a major point - twigs don't jump from one branch to another. That is what was being claims by the "disinformation" campaign.

External information (not genetically related).

Suddenly in early October 2019, the Wuhan lab was cut off to all vehicular traffic for about a week. We know this from satellite imagery. The lab was in a high traffic area (between 2 main roads, both of them shut down). No answer as to why, but it is an awful big coincidence.

You make the call. . .

Here’s a source supportive of your assertion that there was a lab leak in October. Nothing in it about gain-of-function or other ways the escapee may have been lab-created.
(Although I have no idea who is the cited author MACE E PAI.)

DocumentCloud

www.documentcloud.org

And here’s a good rundown on the doubtful motives of bat-lady Shi and collaborators Daszak and Andersen.

Origin of Covid — Following the Clues

The Covid-19 pandemic has disrupted lives the world over for more than a year. Its death toll will soon reach three million people. Yet the origin of pandemic remains uncertain: the political agendas…

nicholaswade.medium.com

Can you provide a source for the 38%/62% figure and the jumping twig metaphor?

Thanks!

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

An article out of Nature:

Phylogenetic supertree reveals detailed evolution of SARS-CoV-2 - Scientific Reports

Corona Virus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by the emerged coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 is spreading globally. The origin of SARS-Cov-2 and its evolutionary relationship is still ambiguous. Several reports attempted to figure out this critical issue by genome-based phylogenetic analysis, yet limited...

www.nature.com

Samples of phylogenetic trees:

https://www.mdpi.com/viruses/viruses-11-00057/article_deploy/html/images/viruses-11-00057-g003.png

https://www.mdpi.com/pathogens/pathogens-09-00240/article_deploy/html/images/pathogens-09-00240-g002.png

Sadly, I did not keep the 26/38 tree. I didn't think I would need to quote it, a year ago. . .

Here is a image explaining how to read a phylogenetic tree

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5AElW2omY6k/maxresdefault.jpg

In that example, if you see a piece of specie DNA that wasn't in the first previous predecessor of species X, but suddenly shows up in species G (and the two species can't cross-breed) you know it didn't get there accidentally. . .

 

[Conan]

An article out of Nature:

Phylogenetic supertree reveals detailed evolution of SARS-CoV-2 - Scientific Reports

Corona Virus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) caused by the emerged coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 is spreading globally. The origin of SARS-Cov-2 and its evolutionary relationship is still ambiguous. Several reports attempted to figure out this critical issue by genome-based phylogenetic analysis, yet limited...

www.nature.com

Samples of phylogenetic trees:

https://www.mdpi.com/viruses/viruses-11-00057/article_deploy/html/images/viruses-11-00057-g003.png

https://www.mdpi.com/pathogens/pathogens-09-00240/article_deploy/html/images/pathogens-09-00240-g002.png

Sadly, I did not keep the 26/38 tree. I didn't think I would need to quote it, a year ago. . .

Here is a image explaining how to read a phylogenetic tree

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5AElW2omY6k/maxresdefault.jpg

In that example, if you see a piece of specie DNA that wasn't in the first previous predecessor of species X, but suddenly shows up in species G (and the two species can't cross-breed) you know it didn't get there accidentally. . .

The authors don’t mention anything about their findings supporting the inference that human hands helped assemble the virus that causes covid-19. Nor have I found later papers or news articles making that claim. Do you have any?

Article Metrics - Phylogenetic supertree reveals detailed evolution of SARS-CoV-2 | Scientific Reports

www.nature.com

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

From the article

Abstract
" In particular, the MRP pseudo-sequence supertree analysis firmly disputes bat coronavirus RaTG13 be the last common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2, which was implied by other phylogenetic tree analysis based on viral genome sequences."

Bat coronavirus RaTG13 was the virus that supposedly mutated into COVID-1.

Under Results and Comparisons.

"Whatsoever, the above distinct phylogenetic analysis results showed beyond a reasonable doubt that the rates of evolution on sequences of varied proteins in SARS-CoV-2s are highly non-uniform. There probably exists another bat coronavirus in divergent species as the adjacent ancestor of SARS-CoV-2, and/or SARS-CoV-2s already made advanced evolution in its animal host. Anyway, what is clear is that the actual validity of RaTG13 be the direct ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 is seriously questioned, although they share 96.5% identical genome sequence. Taking RaTG13 as the last common ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 would seriously mislead phylogenetic inference of SARS-CoV-2." (Italics are mine)

It's the tortoise and the fence post dilemma.

 

[Conan]

I’ll stop here by noting that there are lots of recently published papers that appear to accept zoonotic origin. Which is wheat, which is chaff is beyond my ability.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

 

[Yellowfin]

I’ll stop here by noting that there are lots of recently published papers that appear to accept zoonotic origin. Which is wheat, which is chaff is beyond my ability.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Actually some of the papers mentioned in the link you posted do not seem to draw a conclusion, others contradict the zoonotic origin (like this one):.

Should we discount the laboratory origin of COVID-19? - Environmental Chemistry Letters

link.springer.com

"There is a near-consensus view that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2), the causative agent of COVID-19, has a natural zoonotic origin; however, several characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 taken together are not easily explained by a natural zoonotic origin hypothesis. These include a low rate of evolution in the early phase of transmission; the lack of evidence for recombination events; a high pre-existing binding to human angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2); a novel furin cleavage site (FCS) insert; a flat ganglioside-binding domain (GBD) of the spike protein which conflicts with host evasion survival patterns exhibited by other coronaviruses; and high human and mouse peptide mimicry. Initial assumptions against a laboratory origin by contrast have remained unsubstantiated. Furthermore, over a year after the initial outbreak in Wuhan, there is still no clear evidence of zoonotic transfer from a bat or intermediate species."

 

[Yellowfin]

If the Lab-Leak Theory Is Right, What’s Next?

We know enough to acknowledge that the scenario is possible, and we should therefore act as though it’s true.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

What I find interesting about The Atlantic article is the admission that there have been no new revelations about the COVID origination. The facts were there (such as they are) a year ago, but suddenly <now> all the people (press included) are now saying that the "conspiracy" theory is a bona-fida possibility. Now that the elections are now in the rear view mirror. . .

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

This thread sure explains how Covid Wuhu brain evolved.
****
and how I am infected - since I just studiously read the whole thing.....

 

[Yellowfin]

Fauci was warned that COVID-19 may have been ‘engineered,’ emails show

Fauci was warned that COVID-19 may have been ‘engineered,’ emails show

Dr. Anthony Fauci was warned that the coronavirus had possibly been “engineered” and appeared to be taking reports about it seriously.

nypost.com

 

[cman]

I doubt we'll ever know the origins of this virus. China is not going to cooperate with ANY investigation that could possibly implicate them. It's just not going to happen. Absent their cooperation, I think it's going to be a while before scientests will be able to say, with certinty, where this thing came from. That being said, we as a nation should do everything possible to find out how this thing originated. Hopefully we'll learn something that will prevent this from happening again.

Now, the question that concerns me the most is, "Why did a country that represents 4% of the world's population end up with 25% of the worlds C19 cases and 20% of all deaths from Covid?" Bottom line is that we were not prepared and our response to this threat was inadequate. There will be another pandemic. The source could be natural or man made. It's going to happen! If we have an ineffective response, we'll end up with another 600K+ dead people. If we get our stuff together and ensure we have plans in place to respond effictively, we'll have a favorable outcome. 4% of the world's population and 25% of C19 cases is a national embarasement. We must do better.

 

[Yellowfin]

"Why did a country that represents 4% of the world's population end up with 25% of the worlds C19 cases and 20% of all deaths from Covid?" Bottom line is that we were not prepared and our response to this threat was inadequate. There will be another pandemic. The source could be natural or man made. It's going to happen! If we have an ineffective response, we'll end up with another 600K+ dead people. If we get our stuff together and ensure we have plans in place to respond effictively, we'll have a favorable outcome. 4% of the world's population and 25% of C19 cases is a national embarasement. We must do better.

At the same time the US has lead the way with the vaccines and saved a lot of people around the globe by delivering efficient vaccines faster than anyone anticipated.

You seem to be blaming primarily the response but the relative underperformance is in part due to more testing (many countries have tested little to nothing so we do not know what the real numbers are), economy and population more connected with other parts of the world so harder to lock and isolate for longer periods of time, little prior exposure to other coronaviruses (so less natural immunity), higher percentage of overweight population, a more diverse population (so harder to design an unified message that would be well received by everyone). When you look at the numbers state by state, you will see that the response was actually a very small factor.

 

[bluehende]

At the same time the US has lead the way with the vaccines and saved a lot of people around the globe by delivering efficient vaccines faster than anyone anticipated.

You seem to be blaming primarily the response but the relative underperformance is in part due to more testing (many countries have tested little to nothing so we do not know what the real numbers are), economy and population more connected with other parts of the world so harder to lock and isolate for longer periods of time, little prior exposure to other coronaviruses (so less natural immunity), higher percentage of overweight population, a more diverse population (so harder to design an unified message that would be well received by everyone). When you look at the numbers state by state, you will see that the response was actually a very small factor.

The early call of it being a hoax did not add to the problem at all? Hard to have a response to something that you claim does not exist.

 

[Yellowfin]

The early call of it being a hoax did not add to the problem at all? Hard to have a response to something that you claim does not exist.

If you look state by state, city by city and account who would have been receptive to that message it is hard to make that case.