CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[rickandcindy23]

We are keeping our recent resale purchases as-is. No one is going to talk us into anything that changes what view or what part of the resort we own.

Why would a person convert the best ownerships to anything Marriott?

I would consider buying resale Marriott and enrolling those with a purchase. Or maybe I would consider enrolling a few SBP. I doubt I would go through with it, but it might be fun to sit through a presentation and see what they have to offer.

 

[tamu_bu]

Hello All,

Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?

WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD
SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
4050 DC points for WKV

While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power. We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it. Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.

Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest. They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange. They don't care. They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective. It's a fascinating exercise.

They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental. At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system. But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks. They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.

They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange. 4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category. And buy more points.

I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought. I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks. Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that their weeks received so few points in the DC system. I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.

Best,

Greg

I appreciate the summary. It probably would be best to note the unit size for each to improve the quick reference.

 

[VacationForever]

In the DC, you need to actually elect points by Sep 30 of the prior year and you have no idea if you will be able to get what you need once you try to use the points. I suspect this will turn off a lot of people because the same applies (the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved). And if you can't use the points, you have to bank them, retaining the same risk and uncertainly, or rent them, which is where we started off.

Actually, in DC system, since you can book 13 months ahead and if you want to reserve anything from Jan to October of the following year, you would already know if there is inventory for you to book before the Sept 30th election deadline. For Presidential and Chairman's Club level, election deadline is Oct 31st, which means that you would already find out if there is inventory from Jan to Nov 30th for the following year. The only gap in not knowing whether there is inventory is Nov-Dec for Select/Executive and Dec for Presidential/Chairman's Club.

 

[ssanel54]

Hello All,

Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?

WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD
SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
4050 DC points for WKV

While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power. We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it. Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.

Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest. They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange. They don't care. They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective. It's a fascinating exercise.

They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental. At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system. But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks. They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.

They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange. 4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category. And buy more points.

I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought. I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks. Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that their weeks received so few points in the DC system. I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.

Best,

Greg

When you mention these as confirmed, what does that mean? Have people started to receive documentation, or is this from the "unofficial chart" that the Sales offices are referencing? I recently attended a presentation at Lagunamar. The figures they shared were in line with the above for SDO and WKV. The numbers for Mexico sounded like they were at a Premium. I dont recall the exact figure, but the Lagunamar Studio had a higher DC value than the SDO 2BR. They also said they weren't supposed to be sharing these numbers, so I took everything with a grain of salt.

 

[DanCali]

Actually, in DC system, since you can book 13 months ahead and if you want to reserve anything from Jan to October of the following year, you would already know if there is inventory for you to book before the Sept 30th election deadline. For Presidential and Chairman's Club level, election deadline is Oct 31st, which means that you would already find out if there is inventory from Jan to Nov 30th for the following year. The only gap in not knowing whether there is inventory is Nov-Dec for Select/Executive and Dec for Presidential/Chairman's Club.

I think what you say is generally correct, but:

(1) If you don't have the points in your account you would not know full details about what is available - for example, you may see 2BR unit is available but not the view type, correct? You'd get a message that you don't have enough points, like I just tried below. If in the screenshot below 6025 points is an IV unit, I still don't know if OV is available. I can only see that if I have enough points in my account.

(2) You don't actually know that it will be available at 9am ET when the booking window opens. But you have to elect the points in advance to be able to book it just in case. And the point election is not reversible. In Vistana, unless you confirm a Staroptions reservation, you can still make home resort reservations at 8-12 months out.

 

[Ken555]

That has not happened with Marriott resale weeks so why would Vistana owners lose their weeks?

The ability to reserve home resorts is not in question. The ability, long-term, to trade via SOs, is the issue. If more and more opt not to use SOs and use DPs instead then the available units for SOs will diminish and over time encourage owners to do something else with their weeks, such as using them directly, renting, or enrolling their weeks into the DP program. And if you use DPs to trade then it is a huge devaluation over the current trading ability. This is a major change to our ownership, even if it will not impact us for some years.

Those suggesting SOs will continue to be a viable long-term solution are ignoring the implied concern of a naturally limited inventory system.

It is quite interesting that some people are advocating the belief that this is anything but a devaluation, even if it will not impact us immediately. The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.


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[vacation dreaming]

I think what you say is generally correct, but:

(1) If you don't have the points in your account you would not know full details about what is available - for example, you may see 2BR unit is available but not the view type, correct? You'd get a message that you don't have enough points, like I just tried below. If in the screenshot below 6025 points is an IV unit, I still don't know if OV is available. I can only see that if I have enough points in my account.

View attachment 52600

(2) You don't actually know that it will be available at 9am ET when the booking window opens. But you have to elect the points in advance to be able to book it just in case. And the point election is not reversible. In Vistana, unless you confirm a Staroptions reservation, you can still make home resort reservations at 8-12 months out.

Please explain this to me as I don’t own points yet, I have never seen these screens. Is your screen shot telling me that March 30 is available for 10 nights because the square is white, not greyed out, but it only will tell you a 2 bedroom is available for 6,025 and you don’t know the view options? I guess you could figure out the view based on the number of points, but since it says “starting at” that implies there may be more expensive options. If you did this with a resort which had studios you would not know if a two bedroom is available if you do not have the points in your account? If I understand your point correctly, it makes it harder to decide to convert points if you don’t know that bigger, better units are even available until you agree to convert.

 

[GregT]

Does anyone have any more pictures of points charts?

The attached has:

Westin St. John
Lagunamar
Westin Kaanapali North (I assume WKORV and Nanea are the same)
Sheraton Desert Oasis
Westin Kierland
Sheraton Vistana Resort

I'm particularly interested in WPORV (because I love that property) -- none of the Kauai Marriotts have 1BR options, except for the hotel conversion Kauai Beach Club, so having a true 1BR option will be additive.

Thanks very much!

Best,

Greg

 

[vacation dreaming]

Please explain this to me as I don’t own points yet, I have never seen these screens. Is your screen shot telling me that March 30 is available for 10 nights because the square is white, not greyed out, but it only will tell you a 2 bedroom is available for 6,025 and you don’t know the view options? I guess you could figure out the view based on the number of points, but since it says “starting at” that implies there may be more expensive options. If you did this with a resort which had studios you would not know if a two bedroom is available if you do not have the points in your account? If I understand your point correctly, it makes it harder to decide to convert points if you don’t know that bigger, better units are even available until you agree to convert.

Second question - If you called into owner services, would they tell you what is available before you elected to convert?

 

[GregT]

The ability to reserve home resorts is not in question. The ability, long-term, to trade via SOs, is the issue. If more and more opt not to use SOs and use DPs instead then the available units for SOs will diminish and over time encourage owners to do something else with their weeks, such as using them directly, renting, or enrolling their weeks into the DP program. And if you use DPs to trade then it is a huge devaluation over the current trading ability. This is a major change to our ownership, even if it will not impact us for some years.

Those suggesting SOs will continue to be a viable long-term solution are ignoring the implied concern of a naturally limited inventory system.

It is quite interesting that some people are advocating the belief that this is anything but a devaluation, even if it will not impact us immediately. The program we bought into is changing for the worse, and the only way it will remain similar (or improve) for individuals is if you cough up another significant investment.


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Ken, you may be correct.

Trading via StarOptions will become a different experience, but I don't know yet if it will become unsatisfactory. There may be fewer of those desirable weeks available for StarOption usage, but there may be less competition pursuing those best weeks because some of the competitors migrated to the DC, or gave up.

Similar concerns were raised that Interval trading would dry up after 2010 but I still get satisfactory trades. The predictability is harder but I still get great trades and early enough to be useful.

I still meet owners at the BBQ who own Maui Ocean Club weeks and would get lots of points for them, but 12 years in, they still harbor ill will towards Marriott and refuse to participate in the DC. I suspect there will be lots of Starwood owners who feel the same way -- they don't like being skimmed and think the system is overcomplicated, and know that they have more powerful currency remaining with StarOptions.

I think TUGgers will continue to make the most of whatever the system becomes.

Best,

Greg

 

[DanCali]

Please explain this to me as I don’t own points yet, I have never seen these screens. Is your screen shot telling me that March 30 is available for 10 nights because the square is white, not greyed out, but it only will tell you a 2 bedroom is available for 6,025 and you don’t know the view options? I guess you could figure out the view based on the number of points, but since it says “starting at” that implies there may be more expensive options.

Correct. If 6025 is IV you don't know if OV is available. Some resorts like Crystal Shores have 7 different view categories.

If you did this with a resort which had studios you would not know if a two bedroom is available if you do not have the points in your account?

Not quite. You will see a box saying "Studio" and another saying "1BR" and another saying "2BR" all with the minimum points required. You just won't see the view categories.

If I understand your point correctly, it makes it harder to decide to convert points if you don’t know that bigger, better units are even available until you agree to convert.

Corrected what I meant in your quote. If you are looking specifically for Oceanfront, you can't do a search for that specifically and you don't know if it's available unless you have the points.

 

[vacation dreaming]

Correct. If 6025 is IV you don't know if OV is available. Some resorts like Crystal Shores have 7 different view categories.



Not quite. You will see a box saying "Studio" and another saying "1BR" and another saying "2BR" all with the minimum points required. You just won't see the view categories.



Corrected what I meant in your quote. If you are looking specifically for Oceanfront, you can't do a search for that specifically and you don't know if it's available unless you have the points.

These are important points to me. I assume if you called they would tell you what views are available? I don’t like calling because the best units in high demand times would go quickly but I am assuming you could get the info that way. View is important to my family so this is a big negative.

 

[kozykritter]

I think what you say is generally correct, but:

(1) If you don't have the points in your account you would not know full details about what is available - for example, you may see 2BR unit is available but not the view type, correct? You'd get a message that you don't have enough points, like I just tried below. If in the screenshot below 6025 points is an IV unit, I still don't know if OV is available. I can only see that if I have enough points in my account.

I just want to confirm what you are saying. Is there no way to check availability without already having all of the necessary points in your account? Of course we know with Vistana you can check all the availability you want even if you have zero SOs in your account. If you have to have the DC points first then this means that Vistana-only owners would have to elect DC without having any idea if what they want is available, regardless of the time frame of the reservation (though maybe owner services could tell you). That makes election a lot less attractive if that's the case!

 

[Ken555]

I just want to confirm what you are saying. Is there no way to check availability without already having all of the necessary points in your account? Of course we know with Vistana you can check all the availability you want even if you have zero star options in your account. If you have to have the DC points first then this means that Vistana-only owners would have to elect DC without having any idea if what they want is available, regardless of the time frame of the reservation. That makes election a lot less attractive if that's the case!

Yet another big negative on system usage and expectations compared to what we currently have.


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[DanCali]

I just want to confirm what you are saying. Is there no way to check availability without already having all of the necessary points in your account? Of course we know with Vistana you can check all the availability you want even if you have zero SOs in your account. If you have to have the DC points first then this means that Vistana-only owners would have to elect DC without having any idea if what they want is available, regardless of the time frame of the reservation (though maybe owner services could tell you). That makes election a lot less attractive if that's the case!

When the DC launched you could not check availability online without having the required points.

That was enhanced over time. In the current system, from which I provided screenshots, you can tell in advance if particular room sizes are available. You just can't tell all the particular view categories that are available unless you have the points.

You also can't check availability outside the booking window, like you can with Vistana.

These are important points to me. I assume if you called they would tell you what views are available? I don’t like calling because the best units in high demand times would go quickly but I am assuming you could get the info that way. View is important to my family so this is a big negative.

Yes, if you call I believe that solves the problem. They can check availability, elect points for you, and make the booking.

 

[kozykritter]

When the DC launched you could not check availability online without having points.

That was enhanced over time. In the current system, from which I provided screenshots, you can tell in advance if particular room sizes are available. You just can't tell all the particular view categories that are available unless you have the points.

Okay, that's better than nothing, at least for the way I travel. Still an adjustment from Vistana but what transition isn't? That's life

 

[remowidget]

Does anyone have any more pictures of points charts?

You can download the complete charts here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2wzLKN-sA_mBQKe9wvZdUJ

 

[GregT]

You can download the complete charts here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4QFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2wzLKN-sA_mBQKe9wvZdUJ

Thank you for this -- also looking for any more of the points charts for the Westin and Sheraton properties. Thanks again!

Best,

Greg

 

[remowidget]

Thank you for this -- also looking for any more of the points charts for the Westin and Sheraton properties. Thanks again!

Best,

Greg

Vistana is here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...gQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0HpdMHxOoILhVaKnJY8mE2

 

[dioxide45]

When you mention these as confirmed, what does that mean? Have people started to receive documentation, or is this from the "unofficial chart" that the Sales offices are referencing? I recently attended a presentation at Lagunamar. The figures they shared were in line with the above for SDO and WKV. The numbers for Mexico sounded like they were at a Premium. I dont recall the exact figure, but the Lagunamar Studio had a higher DC value than the SDO 2BR. They also said they weren't supposed to be sharing these numbers, so I took everything with a grain of salt.

The numbers that @GregT posted are what people have been provided when attending a sales presentation. Some are backed up with others posting the same numbers, and others are one time reports. For the most part I think we can trust them. Some may be off a little because sales reps seem to want to convert from StarOptions to Club Points using a ratio like 32.123:1 instead of just saying a Platinum Week at X resort equals a certain amount. Marriott isn't assigning points to weeks based on ratios to StarOptions, they are doing so based on the underlying deeded week, season, view, resort.

 

[TravelTime]

Who’s we? Plenty of people do split stays. Two tuggers just did it at MFC and RITZ in STT this last week. Staying in two resorts in one trip sounds like a split stay to me.

We is me. We do split stays sometimes. I prefer to stay in one resort when possible bc I do not like packing up and moving on vacation unless there is a good reason like traveling through Europe or combining a land and cruise vacation. In Maui next year, I booked one week at WKOVRN and a second week at MOC only because I own in the two different systems and can’t combine them unless I pay to enroll my Vistana week. If my WKOVRN were enrolled, I suspect I would have booked 2 weeks at one resort. I would have booked whichever one was available since, to me, they are a pretty similar experience. As you know, I much prefer staying at the Ritz in St Thomas so that’s why I would not want a split stay in the USVIs unless that is all that was available.

 

[Ken555]

Ken, you may be correct.

Trading via StarOptions will become a different experience, but I don't know yet if it will become unsatisfactory. There may be fewer of those desirable weeks available for StarOption usage, but there may be less competition pursuing those best weeks because some of the competitors migrated to the DC, or gave up.

Similar concerns were raised that Interval trading would dry up after 2010 but I still get satisfactory trades. The predictability is harder but I still get great trades and early enough to be useful.

I still meet owners at the BBQ who own Maui Ocean Club weeks and would get lots of points for them, but 12 years in, they still harbor ill will towards Marriott and refuse to participate in the DC. I suspect there will be lots of Starwood owners who feel the same way -- they don't like being skimmed and think the system is overcomplicated, and know that they have more powerful currency remaining with StarOptions.

I think TUGgers will continue to make the most of whatever the system becomes.

Best,

Greg

Greg,

I’ve read your posts for years with interest, and envy your eternal optimism.

Finding value is not my problem. Part of the reason I enjoy timeshares so much is the “playing the game” component of learning the rules, seeking how best to utilize options, etc. I suspect I will continue to enjoy my WKV deed for some time, though I’m unclear at this point how I will use it with as much certainty as I have had for the last 16 years.

Don’t misunderstand my posts. I am critical of the integration plan and resort value in DP because it deserves criticism. Marriott seems to be taking a well oiled machine and adding so many new parts that it requires another engine just to keep going as fast, to the benefit of Marriott and Marriott only.

This is unlike our existing system whereby currently we have somewhat equality throughout our resorts - and there is no skim, no artificial value changes based on unit size, etc. This new program (to us) changes that dramatically, adding a class system where there was none, requiring additional points (ie devaluation) in order to get exactly what we have been obtaining for a long time, weird and strangely unjustified valuation on certain weeks (and that crazy 1bd + 1bed vs 2bd DP allocation differential), etc. It is, however, a system I would design to maximize profit for the management and development companies.

Even if it all stops for me this year (and it won’t), I will look back on my WKV purchase as a smart decision. If I was to sell my week now for a realistic price, my average nightly cost for an anticipated 356 nights (I have banked StarOptions so am making some assumptions on use) is just $93.15. And, if I am successful at renting my WKV week for next year that nightly average reduces to ~$80-85. In other words, I’m not so worried about my financial position…since if I am successful at renting and I am ultimately unable to use the week within the network as I have, I may be able to just rent it - which then might actually turn the purchase into a profit, given enough years. And I, for one, would take the time to rent it…assuming it is not an annoyingly large time investment.

Nevertheless, these changes with MVC/VSN and the recent Marriott hotel devaluation and switch to dynamic redemption pricing may push me to change to using a competitor more frequently than before. I still have significant BonvoyPesos to use and I have two of their credit cards, but I’ve already moved a majority of my spend to other cards and it just may be that time to reconsider everything…again.

Of course, I also recognize that my travel patterns have started to change after owning timeshares for 17 years. I am taking more cruises (I’m on a ship today, which is the second of four consecutive cruises on two ships over 33 nights, after which there is a land component of 15 nights that includes six nights will be at HGVC resorts in Scotland - my first time staying at HGVC, and of course offers me a glimpse at yet another program (undergoing its own transformation)). While I suspect I will always be interested in timeshares, I’m not oblivious to the need for flexibility. I gravitate toward programs which offer flexibility, value, and superior qualities…though often accept less. I will say I am disappointed that SVN/VSN wasn’t successful in adding numerous additional resorts as was the hope long ago, and even Marriott is not adding new destinations outside of acquisition (or am I misinformed?).

Change isn’t always bad. I’m still waiting for the official update re VSN but it certainly seems like what I predicted some time ago is coming true…the program is going to be worse for most VSN owners unless we purchase more. Hope I’m wrong.

Enjoy,
Ken


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[TravelTime]

Ritz in STT comes up in ThirdHome, though, and I just paired a week there with a week at WSJ. There's actually a week there in July in ThirdHome right now; someone's got it on hold for the next 12 hours - I might snag it when the hold expires if it doesn't get booked. It's one of the smaller 2 BR suites.

I just saw it. Hope you get it. Those are prime dates for the summer. One thing is that it costs about half to book through DPs. Not that 8 keys plus $1200 is not a good deal. That would probably be about $4500 or so between MFs for the week to get 8 keys and the exchange fee. But with DPs, a summer week is about 3900 DPs or comes out to about $2700 for the week in MFs (and even less for people who can convert lower MF weeks to DPs).

 

[Eric B]

I just saw it. Hope you get it. Those are prime dates for the summer. One thing is that it costs about half to book through DPs. Not that 8 keys plus $1200 is not a good deal. That would probably be about $4500 or so between MFs for the week to get 8 keys and the exchange fee. But with DPs, a summer week is about 3900 DPs or comes out to about $2700 for the week in MFs (and even less for people who can convert lower MF weeks to DPs).

Cost really depends on what you use to trade; it looks like whatever weeks you're using in ThirdHome get you keys at $412.50/key. The weeks I'm using get me keys at ~$150/key, so the overall cost for that week would be ~$2,400, which would beat the DP price. There's a bit less availability going through that exchange, but my last trip there in April was only 6 keys for the larger 2 BR - the owner depositing this one set a custom price at 8 keys rather than the 6 keys it should be. Someone will probably grab it at that cost, though.

 

[remowidget]

This is unlike our existing system whereby currently we have somewhat equality throughout our resorts - and there is no skim, no artificial value changes based on unit size, etc.

My perspective is different. We originally purchased while in Maui, but purchased Princeville because of inequality. It was about $5k cheaper and I could still book Maui. A couple years later, without having ever been to Kauai, we traded in our Princeville lockoff for three platinum 148,100 Lagunamar lockoffs. While we were blown away by Lagunamar, a big part of this was Lagunamar was buy 2 get one free when compared to Princeville, even better when compared to Maui. Plus the maintenance fees were half of the Hawaiian resorts. I felt and still feel like we get huge value. For the last few years, we stay 10 weeks in a one bedroom with ocean view for our ~$5k maintenance fees.

We are at the point we don't even want to go back to Maui, too many people. We were in stop and go traffic pretty much all the way from the airport to the Westin on our last trip, and we travel in shoulder seasons.