CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[remowidget]

If you can exchange today for Maui and tomorrow you can’t with the same deed (for the same size unit, same time period, etc), that’s the very definition of devaluing…

That's not the case. Today you can book Maui with Staroptions as you will be able to do tomorrow. You just won't be able to do it through MVC.

 

[Ken555]

That's not the case. Today you can book Maui with Staroptions as you will be able to do tomorrow. You just won't be able to do it through MVC.

Of course this is exactly the case. Marriott wants us to use DPs, though it seems we will continue to use SOs for the (near) future. I’ve already stated that I have no intention of pursuing DPs based on these absurd valuations, and the cost requirements to buy in, but still… this is exactly what devaluation looks like.


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[rcv82]

That's not the case. Today you can book Maui with Staroptions as you will be able to do tomorrow. You just won't be able to do it through MVC.

I would expect it to become more difficult to use StarOptions to book Maui for the simple reason that if you own OF in Maui and aren’t going to use and want to, exchange, which will you take: the 176k StarOptions or the 8300 or so DC points? That quantity of DC points seems far more valuable.

Of course, you will have to take action and plan in advance to get DC points. With StarOptions it just happens if you don’t reserve your week. So this will keep at least some StarOption availability.

The other thing that will help StarOption availability is if they force you to put your whole 2br lock off into DC points, not just being able to deposit your studio.


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[jabberwocky]

Hello All,

Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?

WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD
SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
4050 DC points for WKV

You can add WKORV-N OF 176,700 - 8325

@GregT - I appreciate your sentiments. And quite frankly, I'm not too distressed about the merger. I can still use the properties as I intended as they are in places we like to go. I had hoped to continue building a bit more of my TS portfolio as I move towards retirement and gradually work less, but I can't see myself doing it at MVC prices when I know what value we had in Vistana.

 

[DanCali]

Of course this is exactly the case. Marriott wants us to use DPs, though it seems we will continue to use SOs for the (near) future. I’ve already stated that I have no intention of pursuing DPs based on these absurd valuations, and the cost requirements to buy in, but still… this is exactly what devaluation looks like.


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It's true that it may be harder to do with Staroptions but, to be fair, it was already pretty hard via SVN if you wanted a 2BR during the summer.

That's why I've been arguing that the rental market is the ultimate equalizer. If I can rent out my WKV week and use that cash to book a 2BR on Maui at a 1:1 ratio, I will still be able to do that next year.

 

[Ken555]

It's true that it may be harder to do with Staroptions but, to be fair, it was already pretty hard via SVN if you wanted a 2BR during the summer.

That's why I've been arguing that the rental market is the ultimate equalizer. If I can rent out my WKV week and use that cash to book a 2BR on Maui at a 1:1 ratio, I will still be able to do that next year.

You’re splitting hairs. It doesn’t matter if it was difficult or not, it was possible. Using DPs it’s not even possible.


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[DanCali]

I had hoped to continue building a bit more of my TS portfolio as I move towards retirement and gradually work less, but I can't see myself doing it at MVC prices when I know what value we had in Vistana.

A nice way to expand your portfolio with the current system is to forget about your WKORV-N week (and buy another one...).

Assuming your Maui week is eligible to be enrolled in the DC then Congratulations! Your current WKORV-N is now MVC points. You are the proud owner of 8325 DC Points that have MFs of 36c per point (compared to DC trust points at 65c MFs). Enjoy them as you see fit every year... Use them to exchange to 90+ resorts, or you can even rent them out for around $5700, which is probably better than renting your actual week (the one I just suggested you forget about).

But wait - I assume you bought that week because you like Maui and actually go there often! Then the easy solution is to just buy another unenrolled resale week at the same place. Now you are exactly where you were pre-DC, and you also added 8325 points in a super-cost-effective way! The retail value of that would be over $100K and at much higher annual MFs...

That's kind of what I did with my NCV weeks in the Marriott system. After I enrolled my weeks, I got tired of hearing from salespeople that I should buy more points, so I just bought more weeks...

 

[TravelTime]

If you can exchange today for Maui and tomorrow you can’t with the same deed (for the same size unit, same time period, etc), that’s the very definition of devaluing…


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Is that what’s happening? I thought nothing was changing within VSE.

 

[Ken555]

Is that what’s happening? I thought nothing was changing within VSE.

See the forest.


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[Red elephant]

I would expect it to become more difficult to use StarOptions to book Maui for the simple reason that if you own OF in Maui and aren’t going to use and want to, exchange, which will you take: the 176k StarOptions or the 8300 or so DC points? That quantity of DC points seems far more valuable.

Of course, you will have to take action and plan in advance to get DC points. With StarOptions it just happens if you don’t reserve your week. So this will keep at least some StarOption availability.

The other thing that will help StarOption availability is if they force you to put your whole 2br lock off into DC points, not just being able to deposit your studio.


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My understanding is that you cannot split the lockoff to deposit into DC points. It’s all or nothing.

 

[TravelTime]

See the forest.


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That has not happened with Marriott resale weeks so why would Vistana owners lose their weeks?

 

[regatta333]

My understanding is that you cannot split the lockoff to deposit into DC points. It’s all or nothing.

That is also what I was told. What I don't understand is why you are disadvantaged by having a 2BD WKV. If you had two separate 1BD platinum season (the larger and smaller one) and deposited each separately, you'd get 700 more DC points than depositing the entire 2BD LO. I asked if it would be possible to pay to re-record the deed and separate the units, but they said no. When I asked about why parts did not add to the whole, I was told that more people look to book 1BDs so they are "more valuable". What are the odds that the entire lockoff would be made available through DC rather than being split off into the 2 1BDs? This does not seem right to me and for this reason, I'll not be converting my 2BD LO. I'll either use or rent.

 

[wjarcher]

That is also what I was told. What I don't understand is why you are disadvantaged by having a 2BD WKV. If you had two separate 1BD platinum season (the larger and smaller one) and deposited each separately, you'd get 700 more DC points than depositing the entire 2BD LO. I asked if it would be possible to pay to re-record the deed and separate the units, but they said no. When I asked about why parts did not add to the whole, I was told that more people look to book 1BDs so they are "more valuable". What are the odds that the entire lockoff would be made available through DC rather than being split off into the 2 1BDs? This does not seem right to me and for this reason, I'll not be converting my 2BD LO. I'll either use or rent.

This seems to be the way how Marriott DP assigns the points. It is very different from Vistana where the staroptions just adds up.

The reason might be that the retail price of a 2 BR lockoff is cheaper than the retail price of a 1 larger BR plus that of the 1 smaller BR (like discount when purchasing a bundle) so somebody reported that they were told Marriott decides the points conversion based on the developer price. Also if you look at the existing Marriott DP chart, it requires fewer points to book a 2 BR lock-off rather than booking 1 BR + 1 studio separately.

 

[rcv82]

This seems to be the way how Marriott DP assigns the points. It is very different from Vistana where the staroptions just adds up.

This seems like a goofy approach to point assignments. Maybe it’s a product of the fact that MVC studios generally suck compared to the Vistana studios and small side units, and they don’t want a bunch of those deposited for DC points without the one bedroom portion.

While Vistana StarOptions just add up, the maintenance fees do not. This may not be true everywhere, but I know that at SMV, where I own, you will pay substantially higher (on the order of 30%, excluding VSN) maintenance fees by separately buying a small and large unit vs owning a single lock off even though they are the exact same units.


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[ocdb8r]

That is also what I was told. What I don't understand is why you are disadvantaged by having a 2BD WKV. If you had two separate 1BD platinum season (the larger and smaller one) and deposited each separately, you'd get 700 more DC points than depositing the entire 2BD LO. I asked if it would be possible to pay to re-record the deed and separate the units, but they said no. When I asked about why parts did not add to the whole, I was told that more people look to book 1BDs so they are "more valuable". What are the odds that the entire lockoff would be made available through DC rather than being split off into the 2 1BDs? This does not seem right to me and for this reason, I'll not be converting my 2BD LO. I'll either use or rent.

This seems to be the way how Marriott DP assigns the points. It is very different from Vistana where the staroptions just adds up.

The reason might be that the retail price of a 2 BR lockoff is cheaper than the retail price of a 1 larger BR plus that of the 1 smaller BR (like discount when purchasing a bundle) so somebody reported that they were told Marriott decides the points conversion based on the developer price. Also if you look at the existing Marriott DP chart, it requires fewer points to book a 2 BR lock-off rather than booking 1 BR + 1 studio separately.

I think people need to suspend any expectation that MVC DP system works in any way like SVN (or even how we traditionally expects time shares to work). These exact same concerns were all brought up when MVC launched the program and (for this specific example) the impact on existing weeks owners was the same - the value of the two parts of the lock-off did not equal the value of them booked separately (this was lumped in with the overall discussion of "skim").

The bottom line is, MVC used the launch of the DP program to radically change how timeshares were organized. The true "cost" for each week/unit size/view was better aligned with the actual demand they saw for each week/unit size/view. It may not work for everyone, but despite the roar of complaints in the Marriott forum when it was launched, over time it seems like a LOT of people have gotten comfortable with the system and found ways that it benefits them to participate. After all, this is TUG - we excel at finding the hidden value in any system.

I am glad that many find multiple ways to use their timeshares, but there seems to be a crescendo of people saying they'll just rent when they can't use their weeks. I think it presents an overly simplistic view of "renting". Renting takes time and effort, the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved. Furthermore, if a large portion of owners at any given resort shifted their usage significantly in this way, there would be a much larger number of units on the market for rent, depressing rental prices.

 

[ocdb8r]

This seems like a goofy approach to point assignments. Maybe it’s a product of the fact that MVC studios generally suck compared to the Vistana studios and small side units, and they don’t want a bunch of those deposited for DC points without the one bedroom portion.

....I will add - this is also how Disney Vacation Club does it.

I don't think it's them trying to "shape" what they get, but rather reflecting actual demand. I also think it's a reflection of actual costs - it costs more to service two different groups separately in two units vs one full 2-bedroom.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

It seems really low since I thought St John was considered a premium location within Vistana. I thought St John was much more desirable than St Thomas based upon comments on TUG who say they prefer to stay in St John. I was told WKOVRN 2 BR will get over 8300 DPs. That is nearly double St John. Rather shocking really. The good news is if MVC is assigning relatively low point value for conversions then it will be low to book at these locations using DPs. So that’s a huge plus for DP owners. To me, Ritz St Thomas in the summer is the best deal in the system.

Thanks for sharing your presentation info. This is very helpful.

 

[DanCali]

The reason might be that the retail price of a 2 BR lockoff is cheaper than the retail price of a 1 larger BR plus that of the 1 smaller BR (like discount when purchasing a bundle) so somebody reported that they were told Marriott decides the points conversion based on the developer price.

The connection between retail prices and point conversion ratios got debunked after we learned WSJ conversion ratios...

Moreover, I believe the retail prices for Vistana were such that the parts added up to the whole, at least for the couple of Westin presentations I attended many years back. So 2BR lockoff units getting 15%-20% less trading power than the separate units also debunks that connection.

While Vistana StarOptions just add up, the maintenance fees do not. This may not be true everywhere, but I know that at SMV, where I own, you will pay substantially higher (on the order of 30%, excluding VSN) maintenance fees by separately buying a small and large unit vs owning a single lock off even though they are the exact same units.

This is not the case for all resorts regarding MFs. At WKV, there is an advantage to owning the small 1BR vs the large 1BR relative to SOs they get, but the sum of the MFs of the two units exactly adds up to the whole.

From Vistana 2021 MF thread (2022 missing the large 1BR):
small1BR: $645
large 1BR: $1025
2BR: $1671

So in the case of WKV, the sum of the parts adds up to the whole with (i) retail prices, (ii) maintenance fees (iii) Staroptions, and even (iv) resale prices more or less, at least for Platinum.

But the point allocation if 4050 vs. 4750(?) if you owned the units separately...

 

[DanCali]

It may not work for everyone, but despite the roar of complaints in the Marriott forum when it was launched, over time it seems like a LOT of people have gotten comfortable with the system and found ways that it benefits them to participate. After all, this is TUG - we excel at finding the hidden value in any system.

This is true, but those Marriott weeks owners were already predisposed to be loyal to the brand. I am not sure that holds for Vistana owners and, in some cases, it may even be the opposite.

Vistana owners used to get 1 Starpoint (3 Bonvoy points) per $1 on their credit cards - now it's 2 points per $1. They used to book a Westin at 10,000 Starpoints (30,000 Bonvoy points) a night. Now it's 60,000 Bonvoy points in most places. It's not like the ride with Marriott they were forced into has been a great one.

I am glad that many find multiple ways to use their timeshares, but there seems to be a crescendo of people saying they'll just rent when they can't use their weeks. I think it presents an overly simplistic view of "renting". Renting takes time and effort, the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved. Furthermore, if a large portion of owners at any given resort shifted their usage significantly in this way, there would be a much larger number of units on the market for rent, depressing rental prices.

This is also true. I, for example, don't mind renting but feel the way you describe about II trading (takes time and effort, the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved). So I can see how people may not like renting.

That said, a lot of those same people may feel the same about DC trading - it's quite different from Vistana. For example, at Vistana you can elect home resort or Staroptions at any time during the use year if you haven't done so already. And if Staroption inventory is not available for booking, you can keep your home resort (when you confirm a reservation, they have that box that makes you confirm you are giving up your home resort usage).

In the DC, you need to actually elect points by Sep 30 of the prior year and you have no idea if you will be able to get what you need once you try to use the points. I suspect this will turn off a lot of people because the same applies (the results are not guaranteed and there are risks involved). And if you can't use the points, you have to bank them, retaining the same risk and uncertainly, or rent them, which is where we started off.

 

[CPNY]

As an owner with both systems, I've done those split stays... STJ (WSJ) and STT (MFC), Princeville (WPORV) and Poipu (Marriott Waiohai), Avon and Vail. It's a nice feature and we enjoy them, but you don't need this new rollout to do it.

And I suspect you'll have better luck with WSJ in SVN. I really wouldn't count on WSJ owners to convert to DC points at these rates. From what I've seen on these threads, many of them are proud long-time owners who would probably have no interest trading what they own for what they are being offered. I'm not happy as a WKV owner, but I'd be livid if I was a WSJ owner.

And I think these WSJ conversion rates mostly debunk the rumor that DC point allocations were based on developer prices...

I’m sure there will be some WSJ units in the DC without people converting. As far as I know, the only way to do a split stay is to own in both systems currently. I don’t remember hearing of the Ritz in STT coming up in interval to pair with a WSJ booking for someone owning in VSE only.

 

[DanCali]

I’m sure there will be some WSJ units in the DC without people converting.

Do you mean developer inventory, or that they will just move inventory from SVN to the DC regardless of whether owners actually elect DC points?

 

[CPNY]

I would do a split stay between Princeville and Poipu. But for some reason, a split stay between the Ritz and WSJ does not appeal to me. I could do it now, but just no appeal. However if I could not get into the Ritz for more than a week and could get a second week at WSJ, then I would do it. I live too far to go for just one week. I agree that few WSJ owners will convert to DPs. The other thing…if the sales person was correct…you will need to pay a lot just for the privilege of converting to DPs. Why would someone who can already use SOs want to pay to convert? Another Tuggers said it right…MVC should pay us to convert. LOL

Why do you think split stays will happen? We can do split stays now and we don’t do them.

Who’s we? Plenty of people do split stays. Two tuggers just did it at MFC and RITZ in STT this last week. Staying in two resorts in one trip sounds like a split stay to me.

 

[CPNY]

Do you mean developer inventory, or that they will just move inventory from SVN to the DC regardless of whether owners actually elect DC points?

Developer inventory. I’m under the impression that they cannot just take inventory from the VSN to the DC at 12 months. I believe at 8 months they can take inventory to fund the exchange company according to the governing documents. That exchange company has always been interval, but with the DC being set up as a separate exchange company, I’d assume they can take inventory from the VSN to fund the DC exchange.

 

[Eric B]

I’m sure there will be some WSJ units in the DC without people converting. As far as I know, the only way to do a split stay is to own in both systems currently. I don’t remember hearing of the Ritz in STT coming up in interval to pair with a WSJ booking for someone owning in VSE only.

Ritz in STT comes up in ThirdHome, though, and I just paired a week there with a week at WSJ. There's actually a week there in July in ThirdHome right now; someone's got it on hold for the next 12 hours - I might snag it when the hold expires if it doesn't get booked. It's one of the smaller 2 BR suites.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Starpoint? If they won’t put it in the contract it isn’t even worth the toilet paper in the bathroom.


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Oh my! That is funny. You made me laugh out loud. Rick looked over at me with puzzlement on his face at my sudden outburst of laughter.