CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Ken555]

Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure . Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration? Is that even possible? LOL. I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.

It was a three hour voyage...

Short version:
Marriott DP = $$$; DP = ability to stay at lots of resorts; Marriott = Happy

 

[Ken555]

This is exactly what we were told by the Marriott people at the last 2 presentations.
100% of our VSN are either Direct-Purchase or Enrolled and we were told that every VSN-Owner would have to purchase something to be eligible to enroll within the DCP-System.

Since we purchased a Hybrid [Week + Points in OCT-2021] we were informed that the Oct purchase was good enough and would meet the requirement to enroll our VSN.
This was repeated last week at our Grand Chateau presentation.

Justification: Marriott purchased [not merged] and thus being able to exchange within DCP was an added benefit for which VSN-Owners would have to pay. When I informed them that I had already paid VSN, they informed me that what I paid VSN was for access to ~20 VSN-Resorts. To Access 90+ resorts was an added benefit which Marriott was unlikely to provide for free.

The interesting aspect of this is that Marriott knows exactly how many of their existing owners are already Vistana owners (and vice versa) and how many already have both. They really don't want to alienate their established base since that's where they will earn future sales from more easily than new prospects. With that said, I find it difficult to believe they will require significant investments for Vistana owners to trade into Marriott (and the opposite). I think it a greater likelihood that the spin you heard was *FOR YOU* based on your existing ownership, and that others will hear a completely different story.

 

[DanCali]

Joining the 58 page thread now... a little late I am sure . Would someone possibly be willing to take a moment to summarize maybe 3-4 key points that seem consistent and likely to happen with the integration? Is that even possible? LOL. I would so appreciate any reader's digest version of it all. At least from the Westin side since I don't own Marriott.

- (some) Vistana owners will have access to the Destinations Club (points system) with Marriott Vacation Club
- Unclear yet who will get access - could be (i) developer purchases and retros or (ii) also mandatory resales
- Whoever doesn't get access will need to buy points from Marriott to have access
- VSN will continue as is, but inventory availability may change over time
- The additional option will allow those who have access to exchange to points
- WKORV and WKORVN (Nanea probably too) get seemingly generous points in exchange for electing to deposit in the DC. Others less so, but it's all relative.
- The annual VSN fee will be consolidated with the Marriott annual fee
- Some fees (e.g., banking) may go away

 

[jabberwocky]

Westin Princeville is getting a lot fewer points than Maui. I know Vistana people do not want to hear this but Maui is one of the hardest if not the hardest resort to book using DPs. So it makes sense MVC would value it higher. All the other Hawaii resorts are fairly easy to book using DPs. With Maui, you need to be online right when the booking window opens and the inventory is gone within minutes.

This high demand is the reason I still think MVC will need to provide some sort of incentives or make it easy for Westin Maui owners to put our inventory into the DP system (free would be fair for mandatory weeks ). Right now MVC wants the inventory, but they want us to pay to give them that inventory.

Logically, it should be the other way around, but then timeshare developer economics never makes much sense.

 

[CPNY]

Logically, it should be the other way around, but then timeshare developer economics never makes much sense.

It makes sense to them… it’s a racket that’s for sure

 

[DanCali]

This high demand is the reason I still think MVC will need to provide some sort of incentives or make it easy for Westin Maui owners to put our inventory into the DP system (free would be fair for mandatory weeks ). Right now MVC wants the inventory, but they want us to pay to give them that inventory.

Logically, it should be the other way around, but then timeshare developer economics never makes much sense.

I doubt they care much about inventory in the DC at this point. Do they make more money if there are more Maui units traded in? Maybe some from "skim" but it's peanuts compared to a $30K-$50K points sale where they buy points for $2-$3 at ROFR and sell for $12-$15. Then they also get your inventory.

The DC exchange has been up and running for 12 years and has a high volume of exchanges already. They are playing the long game - they are now getting tens of thousands of new owners who they can try to sell a new shiny object... "You want access to 60+ high-end resorts? Just buy X thousand points and you're in! We love Vistana weeks, and your week will get you 20+ days elsewhere"

Their system seems to work well. Just look at what VAC stock has done since the spinoff in late 2011... I own multiple Marriott weeks, but haven't purchased any from them. I also haven't purchased any points from them. I like the system, but I don't think the economics are in my favor with their pricing relative to what I get with what I'd be buying (Vistana pricing was a bargain compared to MVC, IMO). But plenty of others are buying from them for their own reasons, so I just buy the stock and plan to hold it long term (this is not meant to be financial advice or an endorsement to purchase risky securities in any way*).

I'd be very interested to hear their earnings call Q&A on May 5!



* The value of shares and investments and the income derived from them can go down as well as up; Investors in stocks may not get back the amount they invested - losing money is a real risk; Past performance is not a guide to future performance.

 

[daviator]

After my owner update today and all the discussion, I’m more convinced than ever that all of this is meaningless until it’s in writing and they’ll put it on their website.

The stories that Sales are telling owners are quite different than what Denise's in-the-know contact told us. Who to believe? Well, I’d believe Denise's friend over a bunch of random timeshare sales people, but to be honest, I don’t believe any of them until I see it in writing.

Some owners have apparently been told “this is how many DPs your ownership is going to be worth.” I was told “your ownership is worth nothing unless you buy more Westin a flex.” The latter is almost certainly a lie, but maybe the former is a lie too. I just don’t think we know yet. Maybe we will know next month. Or maybe in June.

 

[jabberwocky]

They don't really care about inventory in the DC at this point. Do they make more money if there are more Maui units traded in? Maybe some from "skim" but it's peanuts compared to a $30K points sale where they buy points for $2-$3 at ROFR and sell for $12-$15. Then they also get your inventory.

The DC exchange has been up and running for 12 years and has a high volume of exchanges already. They are playing the long game - they are now getting tens of thousands of new owners who they can try to sell a new shiny object... "You want access to 60+ high-end resorts? Just buy X thousand points and you're in! We love Vistana weeks, and your week will get you 20+ days elsewhere"

Their system seems to work well. Just look at what VAC stock has done since the spinoff in late 2011... I own multiple Marriott weeks, but haven't purchased any from them. I haven't purchased any points from them. I don't think the economics are in my favor with their pricing (Vistana pricing was a bargain compared to MVC, IMO). But plenty of others are buying from them for their own reasons, so I just buy the stock and plan to hold it long term (this is not meant to be financial advice or an endorsement to purchase risky securities in any way*).

I'd be very interested to hear their earnings call Q&A on May 5!



* The value of shares and investments and the income derived from them can go down as well as up; Investors in stocks may not get back the amount they invested - losing money is a real risk; Past performance is not a guide to future performance.

I completely agree with you that VAC is a much better purchase than DP points. I predict VAC will do very well in selling this to existing Vistana owners. IMO, selling the points is the short game. The real long game would be creating a great system that has value for both the TS owners and VAC, rather than trying to milk $20-30k out of owners to buy something they already have.

Regardless, like you I’ve owned VAC for some time and bought more back in early 2020 when things looked dire*. Plus, as long as the 125-strike put options I’ve written stay out-of-the-money until July I’ll have my MF covered for the next two years at least.

*I don’t think we need to worry about warning people about risky investments that may go to zero. This site is populated by timeshare owners, after all!

 

[dioxide45]

After my owner update today and all the discussion, I’m more convinced than ever that all of this is meaningless until it’s in writing and they’ll put it on their website.

The stories that Sales are telling owners are quite different than what Denise's in-the-know contact told us. Who to believe? Well, I’d believe Denise's friend over a bunch of random timeshare sales people, but to be honest, I don’t believe any of them until I see it in writing.

Some owners have apparently been told “this is how many DPs your ownership is going to be worth.” I was told “your ownership is worth nothing unless you buy more Westin a flex.” The latter is almost certainly a lie, but maybe the former is a lie too. I just don’t think we know yet. Maybe we will know next month. Or maybe in June.

If they invite us to a presentation in May, when the ask me if I have any questions I am going to say "can I watch the training videos that were provided to you to learn about the new program?"

 

[Mroze]

If they invite us to a presentation in May, when the ask me if I have any questions I am going to say "can I watch the training videos that were provided to you to learn about the new program?"

I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. #1320
He politely clicked through the sections and waited until I read each slide.

We even read an email [line-by-line] about the reopening of Retro for Marriott-Resales as of APR-14-2022.

Previous-Presentation [OCT-2021]
At another presentation done by a rep [Jeremey from Newport Coast] we have known for many years and trust,

• The new DCP-System is in-place but launch is delayed due to COVID.
• Marriott will require purchase of DCP to enroll our VSN [irrespective of Direct/Retro/Resale]. Any direct purchases over the last few months [not sure how far back] will qualify.
• Marriott will require the payment of an Enrollment-Fee in addition to DCP-Purchase. Possibly waive this as an incentive of the DCP-Purchase.
• Marriott will launch a new level above Chairmans. Name not yet decided. Points difference will likely not be more than 5K more than current Chairmans.
• Enrolled VSN owners 3*/4*/5* will map to MVCI-Executive/Presidents/Chairmans.
• Enrolled VSN owners 5* will map to Bonvoy-Titanium. Did not discuss 3*/4*.
• There will be a combined Club-Dues. No details about what the fees would be or benefits.
• Enrolled VSN owners will enjoy the same II benefits as Marriott owners.
• There will be a points mapping for each VSN-Week. Did not share what those charts would be. Most likely didn't exist at the time.

 

[CPNY]

I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. #1320
He politely clicked through the sections and waited until I read each slide.

We even read an email [line-by-line] about the reopening of Retro for Marriott-Resales as of APR-14-2022.

This thread should have ended at post 1320! You have more knowledge than the sales reps lol. It sounds like they trained the sales reps to come up with their own interpretations so they can spew lies to make additional sales

 

[Ken555]

This thread should have ended at post 1320! You have more knowledge than the sales reps lol. It sounds like they trained the sales reps to come up with their own interpretations so they can spew lies to make additional sales

Huh? There was a time the sales weasels didn’t lie?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CPNY]

Huh? There was a time the sales weasels didn’t lie?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Of course! Before timeshares existed lol

 

[wtrjock]

I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. #1320
He politely clicked through the sections and waited until I read each slide.

We even read an email [line-by-line] about the reopening of Retro for Marriott-Resales as of APR-14-2022.

Previous-Presentation [OCT-2021]
At another presentation done by a rep [Jeremey from Newport Coast] we have known for many years and trust,

• The new DCP-System is in-place but launch is delayed due to COVID.
• Marriott will require purchase of DCP to enroll our VSN [irrespective of Direct/Retro/Resale]. Any direct purchases over the last few months [not sure how far back] will qualify.
• Marriott will require the payment of an Enrollment-Fee in addition to DCP-Purchase. Possibly waive this as an incentive of the DCP-Purchase.
• Marriott will launch a new level above Chairmans. Name not yet decided. Points difference will likely not be more than 5K more than current Chairmans.
• Enrolled VSN owners 3*/4*/5* will map to MVCI-Executive/Presidents/Chairmans.
• Enrolled VSN owners 5* will map to Bonvoy-Titanium. Did not discuss 3*/4*.
• There will be a combined Club-Dues. No details about what the fees would be or benefits.
• Enrolled VSN owners will enjoy the same II benefits as Marriott owners.
• There will be a points mapping for each VSN-Week. Did not share what those charts would be. Most likely didn't exist at the time.

What you said in your post is the same as what we heard at WKV last week from a Marriott closer and a Vistana salesman. I agree with you. I will include a picture of the coming soon chart.

I have the Daily Tour profile for what we own from the presentation. We had 2 SVVKW 2br resales for 81k SO. Those translate to 2725 DC each if we trade them into MVC. We have a WKORV south 1br EOY for 81k SO that translates into 1988 DC/yr or 3975 Election Value EOY. Our annual election shows 7438 because we bought 44k WF SO for $15k. There will be a little more DC for the 44k WF, but I'm not sure how much; around 2k DC.

What we got from the $15k purchase:
*Retro our 2 SVV 81k SO Resales into the system
*88k WF SO to use after 45day that expire at 2yrs
*Locked in if we want to purchase more WF SO at $0.411/SO for 2yr
*6 certs to buy 330000 bonvoy for $2275 within 2yrs
*15mo same as cash on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*$300 credit on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*195k Bonvoy Point due to purchase on new Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*MF on 44k SO are $956 and start 2024
*Bonvoy Platinum for life of ownership
*VSN 3* Elite until the merge happens, then MVC Executive Level

We are beyond the recind period and are good with what we purchased. I mostly want to give information that other can use to help make good decisions.

 

[Mroze]

What you said in your post is the same as what we heard at WKV last week from a Marriott closer and a Vistana salesman. I agree with you. I will include a picture of the coming soon chart.

I have the Daily Tour profile for what we own from the presentation. We had 2 SVVKW 2br resales for 81k SO. Those translate to 2725 DC each if we trade them into MVC. We have a WKORV south 1br EOY for 81k SO that translates into 1988 DC/yr or 3975 Election Value EOY. Our annual election shows 7438 because we bought 44k WF SO for $15k. There will be a little more DC for the 44k WF, but I'm not sure how much; around 2k DC.

What we got from the $15k purchase:
*Retro our 2 SVV 81k SO Resales into the system
*88k WF SO to use after 45day that expire at 2yrs
*Locked in if we want to purchase more WF SO at $0.411/SO for 2yr
*6 certs to buy 330000 bonvoy for $2275 within 2yrs
*15mo same as cash on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*$300 credit on Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*195k Bonvoy Point due to purchase on new Bonvoy Brilliant Card
*MF on 44k SO are $956 and start 2024
*Bonvoy Platinum for life of ownership
*VSN 3* Elite until the merge happens, then MVC Executive Level

We are beyond the recind period and are good with what we purchased. I mostly want to give information that other can use to help make good decisions.

Your details match our VSN-Package.

• We retro'd 3 x 2BR-WKV-EY PLAT+ [148.1K x 3] for ~$20K Aventuras-Flex [51700-SO-EY] + Closing $895. Maintenance-Fees: $788/Year
• Incentive: 175K-Bonvoy [Purchase-Bonus] + 30K-Bonvoy [Presentation-Bonus] + 130K-Bonvoy [Credit-Card-Charges]
• Option to purchase 6 x 330K-Bonvoy Certs for $2275/Each
  • Since our First-Use-Year is 2025, we have until DEC-2025 to avail of the 330K-Certs
• We were already 5* Elite so no change
• We already had the Bonvoy-Brilliant-Card so no added benefit

This gets us to 1.3M-SO/Year [1M-WKV + 222K-WLR + 100K-WAC] + 20K-DCP/Year.
We are not fans of any of the Flex-Programs but did it to have 100% of our portfolio enrolled as we don't see a cheaper option with Marriott going forward.

QUESTION
If I had a choice at a re-do I would have purchased a WKV-Deeded-Week as opposed to any Flex.
Since you purchased at Kierland, were you offered WKV as an alternative to purchasing Flex?

 

[SDKath]

Wealth of info well digested into a 5 min read! Thank you!

 

[wtrjock]

Your details match our VSN-Package.

• We retro'd 3 x 2BR-WKV-EY PLAT+ [148.1K x 3] for ~$20K Aventuras-Flex [51700-SO-EY] + Closing $895. Maintenance-Fees: $788/Year
• Incentive: 175K-Bonvoy [Purchase-Bonus] + 30K-Bonvoy [Presentation-Bonus] + 130K-Bonvoy [Credit-Card-Charges]
• Option to purchase 6 x 330K-Bonvoy Certs for $2275/Each
  • Since our First-Use-Year is 2025, we have until DEC-2025 to avail of the 330K-Certs
• We were already 5* Elite so no change
• We already had the Bonvoy-Brilliant-Card so no added benefit

This gets us to 1.3M-SO/Year [1M-WKV + 222K-WLR + 100K-WAC] + 20K-DCP/Year.
We are not fans of any of the Flex-Programs but did it to have 100% of our portfolio enrolled as we don't see a cheaper option with Marriott going forward.

QUESTION
If I had a choice at a re-do I would have purchased a WKV-Deeded-Week as opposed to any Flex?
Since you purchased at Kierland, were you offered WKV as an alternative to purchasing Flex?

Unfortunately they didn't have any WKV deeded weeks to offer.

 

[dioxide45]

I saw the entire training video along with my sales rep last week at Grand Chateau and posted my comments earlier. #1320

I got the impression from the response by Denise's contact that there was more than one video. Perhaps different training was provided to Vistana sales reps vs. Marriott sales reps?

 

[Mroze]

I got the impression from the response by Denise's contact that there was more than one video. Perhaps different training was provided to Vistana sales reps vs. Marriott sales reps?

This was a Training that the Marriott sales rep had to view and digitally attest to completing. There could have been more Trainings.
It is very possible that the Vistana sales reps had different training.

I noticed the Marriott sales rep did not have any printed charts [VSN-Resorts Points-Values] like what I saw here from others who attended Vistana presentations.

 

[Mulege]

Lagunamar sales staff had 1 day of training to be introduced to the changes.

 

[remowidget]

Just got back from a Marriott presentation. They are giving a little over 8300 DPs for a 2BR at WKOVRN. I was rather shocked at how many points they are awarding for Maui. However, to enroll my week, he said I need to buy 1000 DPs at $15 pp.

So, $15k purchase instead of around $10k to recertify. Somehow, I though it would be more.

 

[Mroze]

So, $15k purchase instead of around $10k to recertify. Somehow, I though it would be more.

This is an interesting offer, different from what I have seen from either Vistana or Marriott.

Vistana [Qualify VSN-Resales]

• $10K = Retro 1-Contract followed by an additional $5K for each additional contract.

Marriott [Qualify Marriott-Resales]

• 2500-DCP = Retro 1-Contract [~$35K After Discounts]
• 3500-DCP = Retro 2-Contracts [~$50K After Discounts]
• 5000-DCP = Retro 3-7-Contracts [~$64K After Discounts]

Haven't yet seen any X-Over Offers where:

• Marriott offers to retro VSN Resale-Contracts
• VSN offers to retro Marriott Resale-Contracts

 

[TravelTime]

So does it sound like a good deal to pay $15K for 1000 DPs to register my Vistana EOY worth 8300+ DPs (about 4200 a year)?

 

[Eric B]

At $.70 per point, you could just rent over 21,000 points for $15K without increasing your MFs. That’s 5 years worth.

 

[TravelTime]

At $.70 per point, you could just rent over 21,000 points for $15K without increasing your MFs. That’s 5 years worth.

Good point. It is much better to rent points than pay $15,000 to get 1000 DPs plus register my Vistana week. I have never rented points but it could be worth it. I guess for me the deal breaker was I do not necessarily want to travel more time with Marriott every year. I like doing different things outside of timeshares.