CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[remowidget]

At $.70 per point, you could just rent over 21,000 points for $15K without increasing your MFs. That’s 5 years worth.

If you can rent at the same price, why would anyone purchase more?

 

[DanCali]

If you can rent at the same price, why would anyone purchase more?

For an informed buyer, the only reason to buy developer points would be to enroll resale weeks as part of the deal. Or, some deals include points + buying another week (enrolled) as part of the deal and if people use that new week purely as points, the cost/point and MF/point go down.

Resale points are obviously a lot cheaper (but the $3 "junk fee" is still painful), so the math changes there. Some people may buy those in order to get to the next Elite level or avoid the hassle of having to rent.

Also, points you own more flexible than points you rent because they can be banked or rented out (the rule is you can only "move" points once so, once you rent from someone, you have to use them or lose them. No banking or renting again)

That said, I do have enrolled weeks and converted to points only a couple of times. Once was to exchange to Kauai (got 5 nights for my 2BR NCV week). And once was to see if I can rent my points out for more than the week itself. Otherwise, I just rent points from others when I need to, and if I lose some at the end of the year I'm ok with that.

 

[Mroze]

So does it sound like a good deal to pay $15K for 1000 DPs to register my Vistana EOY worth 8300+ DPs (about 4200 a year)?

Not so good.

Now that you mentioned EOY, it's too expensive.
That extrapolates to $30K for 1 x EY-Contract which matches what Marriott is offering which is 3X more expensive compared to what Vistana is offering [$10K for 1-Contract].

If it's a mandatory contract the benefit is minimal as you already have access to VSN. The only thing of value is improved Elite-Status which depends on the benefits you can avail of.
If its for exchanging between MVCI & VSN it could be useful if you plan to avail of X-Exchanges. If not, then its not a good idea.
I plan to stick with VSN for my VSN-Contracts and wit Marriott for my MVCI contracts.

 

[remowidget]

Otherwise, I just rent points from others when I need to, and if I lose some at the end of the year I'm ok with that.

Are people renting their points for less than what they cost for maintenance? I thought I read you can rent from Marriott for the price of maintenance.

 

[VacationForever]

Are people renting their points for less than what they cost for maintenance? I thought I read you can rent from Marriott for the price of maintenance.

Fire sale are usually for expiring non-banked points. Most owners rent for a little over MF. You cannot rent from Marriott.

 

[TravelTime]

Not so good.

Now that you mentioned EOY, it's too expensive.
That extrapolates to $30K for 1 x EY-Contract which matches what Marriott is offering which is 3X more expensive compared to what Vistana is offering [$10K for 1-Contract].

If it's a mandatory contract the benefit is minimal as you already have access to VSN. The only thing of value is improved Elite-Status which depends on the benefits you can avail of.
If its for exchanging between MVCI & VSN it could be useful if you plan to avail of X-Exchanges. If not, then its not a good idea.
I plan to stick with VSN for my VSN-Contracts and wit Marriott for my MVCI contracts.

I agree. I paid $12,500 plus closing costs for the week so about $14K, then they want another $15K to register. I could have purchased an annual contract in Maui for less than that. Sort of ridiculous, really.

 

[DanCali]

Are people renting their points for less than what they cost for maintenance? I thought I read you can rent from Marriott for the price of maintenance.

You rent from other owners.

The reason you can rent for slightly above maintenance fees is because some points you can rent are "trust points" while some are "elected points" from weeks. There is almost no difference between the points, but the ones that come from elected weeks may have MF/point of 30c-50c so those owners are generally happy to rent for 67c-69c.

For example, my NCV Platinum week has MF (+tax) of around $1550 and converts to 3475 points. That's 45c/point, and much lower than the 65c MFs per trust point. At the going rate, I could rent those 3475 points for about $2400, which is quite higher than the week's MFs (but I can also rent the week itself for more than that, which is what I would normally do if I end up renting).

It's hard for actual point owners to compete in that rental market because they can easily be undercut by owners with elected points. So the going rate ends up being 3-5 cents over trust point MFs.

 

[Red elephant]

Went to Owners Update:

DC points for each:
WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950

Was also told:
1. Maui would be 7,450
2. No sales of deeded units or Flex after merger. Only sales of DC points.
3. DC points will cost 15.92/point
4. DC points allocated to current VSE owners are dependent on location, season, and PRICE PAID.
5. No requals or trade in after merger.

Received $150 for attending.

I just received my conversion rates if this helps.
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD

 

[TravelTime]

I just received my conversion rates if this helps.
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD

WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.

 

[DanCali]

WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.

Good luck telling those owners to pony up $40K to enroll a week so they can get 4 days on Maui.

 

[dioxide45]

WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.

176,700 looks to be a 2BR in platinum plus season. This closely equates to Platinum Season at Frenchman's Cove. I think Marriott is trying to align these more to similarly located MVC resorts. That said, Platinum 2BR Frenchman's Cove only gets 3,650 points when elected. So there is certainly a premium put on WSJ. We need to stop thinking of Vistana resort only in the Vistana sphere when considering how they will allocate points.

 

[Red elephant]

176,700 looks to be a 2BR in platinum plus season. This closely equates to Platinum Season at Frenchman's Cove. I think Marriott is trying to align these more to similarly located MVC resorts. That said, Platinum 2BR Frenchman's Cove only gets 3,650 points when elected. So there is certainly a premium put on WSJ. We need to stop thinking of Vistana resort only in the Vistana sphere when considering how they will allocate points.

Your correct. Initially I was like they have got to be kidding me!! But now that you compare it to the Marriott in St Thomas it makes sense. I will not be converting my week. If I don’t go then I will rent.

 

[TravelTime]

176,700 looks to be a 2BR in platinum plus season. This closely equates to Platinum Season at Frenchman's Cove. I think Marriott is trying to align these more to similarly located MVC resorts. That said, Platinum 2BR Frenchman's Cove only gets 3,650 points when elected. So there is certainly a premium put on WSJ. We need to stop thinking of Vistana resort only in the Vistana sphere when considering how they will allocate points.

It seems really low since I thought St John was considered a premium location within Vistana. I thought St John was much more desirable than St Thomas based upon comments on TUG who say they prefer to stay in St John. I was told WKOVRN 2 BR will get over 8300 DPs. That is nearly double St John. Rather shocking really. The good news is if MVC is assigning relatively low point value for conversions then it will be low to book at these locations using DPs. So that’s a huge plus for DP owners. To me, Ritz St Thomas in the summer is the best deal in the system.

 

[CPNY]

It seems really low since I thought St John was considered a premium location within Vistana. I thought St John was much more desirable than St Thomas based upon comments on TUG who say they prefer to stay in St John. I was told WKOVRN 2 BR will get over 8300 DPs. That is nearly double St John. Rather shocking really. The good news is if MVC is assigning relatively low point value for conversions then it will be low to book at these locations using DPs. So that’s a huge plus for DP owners. To me, Ritz St Thomas in the summer is the best deal in the system.

At those rates I could see split stays happening. Half Ritz or MFC combined with Half WSJ stays. Best of both worlds.

 

[Eric B]

WSJ worth 176,700 seems very low for the conversion to DPs. I would have thought St John is more desirable and would be given more DPs.

That valuation for WSJ is one that seems about as far off or more as what I’ve heard for WKV. I’ve rented out a 1 BR VGV platinum plus week for more than the DPs they’re reportedly offering for a 3 BR Coral Vista platinum plus week would cost. If that’s what it winds up being for WSJ, no thanks for me and likely anyone else owning there.

 

[TravelTime]

That valuation for WSJ is one that seems about as far off or more as what I’ve heard for WKV. I’ve rented out a 1 BR VGV platinum plus week for more than the DPs they’re reportedly offering for a 3 BR Coral Vista platinum plus week would cost. If that’s what it winds up being for WSJ, no thanks for me and likely anyone else owning there.

The sales person this week was not a hard sell. He said that when he gets resale people at a presentation, he assumes they will not buy. He kept asking us “what questions do you have?” He said there was no need for us to buy DPs to register our week unless we saw some benefit in being able to use DPs down the road. He did throw the curve ball when he said MVC was tracking resale owners but that was the only strange thing he said. He said VSE would not change and we would be able to use it just like before.

 

[TravelTime]

At those rates I could see split stays happening. Half Ritz or MFC combined with Half WSJ stays. Best of both worlds.

Why do you think split stays will happen? We can do split stays now and we don’t do them.

 

[DanCali]

At those rates I could see split stays happening. Half Ritz or MFC combined with Half WSJ stays. Best of both worlds.

Why do you think split stays will happen? We can do split stays now and we don’t do them.

As an owner with both systems, I've done those split stays... STJ (WSJ) and STT (MFC), Princeville (WPORV) and Poipu (Marriott Waiohai), Avon and Vail. It's a nice feature and we enjoy them, but you don't need this new rollout to do it.

And I suspect you'll have better luck with WSJ in SVN. I really wouldn't count on WSJ owners to convert to DC points at these rates. From what I've seen on these threads, many of them are proud long-time owners who would probably have no interest trading what they own for what they are being offered. I'm not happy as a WKV owner, but I'd be livid if I was a WSJ owner.

And I think these WSJ conversion rates mostly debunk the rumor that DC point allocations were based on developer prices...

 

[GregT]

I just received my conversion rates if this helps.
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD

That's very interesting -- I still don't know why Marriott discounted the Caribbean properties (STT/Aruba) as heavily as they did and the pattern continues with St. John. Maui properties continue to get significant premiums from a point perspective, other Hawaiian islands get some premium but less so. I think I saw a WPORV for 4,300 -- what a fabulous property and therefore booking it will likely require 4,800 - 5,200 DC points, consistent with the Marriott Kauai properties. I do see how Marriott is trying to force the Starwood point requirements to correlate with the original Marriott properties and we TUGgers will be able to identify the "point opportunities", similar to how there are deals with StarOptions, or seasonal opportunities.

As one poster noted, Ritz St. Thomas is a "points bargain" and early on in the DC world, Marriott insisted they would not include it into the DC but then the economic reality of many unsold (and foreclosed) weeks with high MFs kicked in and boom, we have amazing access to an incredible property.

Interesting stuff - and my apologies because I know this change is painful for my Starwood friends.

Best,

Greg

 

[DanCali]

(deleted)

 

[TravelTime]

As an owner with both systems, I've done those split stays... STJ (WSJ) and STT (MFC), Princeville (WPORV) and Poipu (Marriott Waiohai), Avon and Vail. It's a nice feature and we enjoy them, but you don't need this new rollout to do it.

And I suspect you'll have better luck with WSJ in SVN. I really wouldn't count on WSJ owners to convert to DC points at these rates. From what I've seen on these threads, many of them are proud long-time owners who would probably have no interest trading what they own for what they are being offered. I'm not happy as a WKV owner, but I'd be livid if I was a WSJ owner.''

And I think this mostly debunks the rumor that DC point allocations were based on developer prices...

I would do a split stay between Princeville and Poipu. But for some reason, a split stay between the Ritz and WSJ does not appeal to me. I could do it now, but just no appeal. However if I could not get into the Ritz for more than a week and could get a second week at WSJ, then I would do it. I live too far to go for just one week. I agree that few WSJ owners will convert to DPs. The other thing…if the sales person was correct…you will need to pay a lot just for the privilege of converting to DPs. Why would someone who can already use SOs want to pay to convert? Another Tuggers said it right…MVC should pay us to convert. LOL

 

[TravelTime]

That's very interesting -- I still don't know why Marriott discounted the Caribbean properties (STT/Aruba) as heavily as they did and the pattern continues with St. John. Maui properties continue to get significant premiums from a point perspective, other Hawaiian islands get some premium but less so. I think I saw a WPORV for 4,300 -- what a fabulous property and therefore booking it will likely require 4,800 - 5,200 DC points, consistent with the Marriott Kauai properties. I do see how Marriott is trying to force the Starwood point requirements to correlate with the original Marriott properties and we TUGgers will be able to identify the "point opportunities", similar to how there are deals with StarOptions, or seasonal opportunities.

As one poster noted, Ritz St. Thomas is a "points bargain" and early on in the DC world, Marriott insisted they would not include it into the DC but then the economic reality of many unsold (and foreclosed) weeks with high MFs kicked in and boom, we have amazing access to an incredible property.

Interesting stuff - and my apologies because I know this change is painful for my Starwood friends.

Best,

Greg

Maui gets a premium but the rest of Hawaii does not. The rest of Hawaii seems discounted compared to Maui. Princeville will be on par with Ko Olina but Princeville has no beach. I love Ko Olina and it should be worth more too. In general, worldwide, Maui is just the most desirable island in Hawaii. Also I believe Maui gets a premium because it books within minutes of opening. The other Hawaiian resorts do not book quickly. Right now, with all the combined resorts that the new program has, it really is quite attractive. MVC now has 90+ resorts in the combined system. That is very impressive. I can see many new prospects buying in even at the crazy retail rates. Hope they find TUG before it is too late to rescind.

 

[GregT]

Hello All,

Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?

WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD
SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
4050 DC points for WKV

While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power. We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it. Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.

Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest. They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange. They don't care. They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective. It's a fascinating exercise.

They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental. At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system. But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks. They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.

They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange. 4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category. And buy more points.

I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought. I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks. Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that their weeks received so few points in the DC system. I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.

Best,

Greg

 

[TravelTime]

Hello All,

Do we have other confirmed DC points elections besides these?

WMH - Platinum - 3,150
Princeville - 4,300
SMV - Winter - 3,125
VV - Prime - 2br - 2,950
Nanea home options 163,000-6,900
Coral vista WSJ 176,700-4,840
Sunset bay 176,700-4,930
SDO 81,000-1,975
SVR 81,000-2,600
Harborside 67,100.TBD
SVV 2BR LO Gold Plus season is worth 2575 DP
SDO Platinum 2BR gets 2600 DPs.
81,000 Westin Flex EOY SOs would get me 2,422 DPs
4050 DC points for WKV

While I am not defending any of these point allocations, these would represent Marriott's views of a week's Trading Power. We've spent many a post talking about Trading Power and how to maximize it. Marriott has revealed what Trading Power means to them.

Many TUGgers point out that their week can be utilized in a more efficient manner (renting/using StarOptions) but that's not Marriott's interest. They figure that you will simply continue to use your week in that more efficient manner and it will never be a part of the Marriott exchange. They don't care. They are simply quantifying what they think a week is worth from a Trading Power perspective. It's a fascinating exercise.

They assign a huge number of my points to my 3BR Maui units -- but I never redeem them because they are more valuable as a rental. At first it pissed me off (and it still does) that they skimmed these weeks, because I thought Marriott should want those weeks in the system. But now I realize that Marriott doesn't care about me or my specific weeks. They aren't trying to get me to redeem my week, nor trying to get you -- the knowledgeable TUGger -- to redeem your WKV week.

They know there are plenty of people out there who are tired of going to Scottsdale every year and don't want the hassle of renting their week, and will do what is easy -- use the Marriott exchange. 4,050 points is a lot in the Marriott system -- Marriott is counting on the fact that they can go to Aruba in prime time -- and pick their view category. And buy more points.

I would love to continue to fill out the points chart above, but I think Starwood owners won't have the bonanza of being able to enroll cheaply, therefore I don't think this will be as interesting as I had originally thought. I hope the final version allows that, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

Again, my apologies because it is tough stuff seeing the possible roll out and implications on the Starwood weeks. Many Frenchman's Cove owners were unhappy (justifiably so) that there weeks received so few points in the DC system. I feel the same will occur for non-Maui owners in Starwood.

Best,

Greg

I think we need to keep in mind that MVC is not devaluing anything. The same way they are assigning points for converting, they are also allowing DP owners to book at what we think are low DP values. I do not see this as devaluing. I see it as an excellent value for DP owners. It is an excellent selling point to say you can book a week in St. John or Princeville for about 4000 to 5000 points.

To add to your list, I was told my 2BR OF at WKOVRN would get a little over 8300 DPs. While that seems high, it also means it will be expensive for DP owners to book there.

 

[Ken555]

I think we need to keep in mind that MVC is not devaluing anything. The same way they are assigning points for converting, they are also allowing DP owners to book at what we think are low DP values. I do not see this as devaluing. I see it as an excellent value for DP owners. It is an excellent selling point to say you can book a week in St. John or Princeville for about 4000 to 5000 points.

To add to your list, I was told my 2BR OF at WKOVRN would get a little over 8300 DPs. While that seems high, it also means it will be expensive for DP owners to book there.

If you can exchange today for Maui and tomorrow you can’t with the same deed (for the same size unit, same time period, etc), that’s the very definition of devaluing…


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