CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[TravelTime]

Cost really depends on what you use to trade; it looks like whatever weeks you're using in ThirdHome get you keys at $412.50/key. The weeks I'm using get me keys at ~$150/key, so the overall cost for that week would be ~$2,400, which would beat the DP price. There's a bit less availability going through that exchange, but my last trip there in April was only 6 keys for the larger 2 BR - the owner depositing this one set a custom price at 8 keys rather than the 6 keys it should be. Someone will probably grab it at that cost, though.

I was just going to ask what you desposit to get keys in ThirdHome. For me to get 8 keys, I need to deposit one of my weeks during a holiday week. My weeks are expensive ones where I pay about $3000 in MFs. There are only about 4-6 weeks or so a year where my weeks qualify for the extra two keys. I have only used my FSA weeks so far since I have two of those EOY.

I have found that ThirdHome does not do a good job of valuing properties. I would use ThirdHome more but for my nice properties, they really do not give me enough keys to justify it. I was almost going to purchase a fractional at Four Seasons Costa Rica. However, Four Seasons does not allow you to rent it out if you do not use the weeks. Then I looked at the options to deposit in ThridHome or EliteAlliance in the years I might not use it. Both exchanges give it very little value.

 

[sharr7]

The reported WSJ 2BR valuation in DP may seem surprising at first, but maybe shouldn't have been based on the leaked points chart. The bulk of the 2BR weeks in high season to reserve come in at either 5500 pts/wk or 4925 pts/wk. Out of curiosity I tried to do the math and average out the costs of all days in the MVC chart that fall under the 176,700 SO level and got ~5350 DP. So perhaps the "skim" is 8-10% here. Or given that they seem to have 2 different DP allocations for some SO/season, perhaps this lends credence to the suggestion that developer price/underlying week/etc will come into play as well, even within a Vistana "season." So these weeks were never going to get 8000 DP or even 6000 DP, as they can't award more points than it costs to reserve.

Fair questions can be asked about the valuation decisions though. WSJ is valued a tick below MFC and the Ritz STT. I can't comment having never been to those (yet!) but obviously all three resorts have their supporters.

It seems like the points charts can get you in the ballpark of what DP allocation to expect. I went through all this seeing if I could get any closer on what to expect my 3BR STJ VGV may be worth. If the numbers/skim/etc are similar to 2BR, it looks like 6300-6450 DP. Though I do own a week during a higher DP period so maybe I'll make out slightly better.

TL;DR: keep leaking points charts, and I still hate this soft launch BS....just give us information!

 

[Ken555]

My perspective is different. We originally purchased while in Maui, but purchased Princeville because of inequality. It was about $5k cheaper and I could still book Maui.

It would have been even less costly had you simply bought WKV 2-bed platinum plus on the resale market.

But, this isn't what I am referring to in regards to equality. Certainly there are different prices for each resort. The club network (trading via SOs) is what offers the balance... where a prime week in Scottsdale is valued similarly to a prime week elsewhere, etc. That is no longer the case with Marriott.

A couple years later, without having ever been to Kauai, we traded in our Princeville lockoff for three platinum 148,100 Lagunamar lockoffs. While we were blown away by Lagunamar, a big part of this was Lagunamar was buy 2 get one free when compared to Princeville, even better when compared to Maui. Plus the maintenance fees were half of the Hawaiian resorts. I felt and still feel like we get huge value. For the last few years, we stay 10 weeks in a one bedroom with ocean view for our ~$5k maintenance fees.

That seems like a great deal, assuming you wanted to buy direct. As you may know, Lagunamar had a slow start where they originally commanded just ~9x,xxx SOs for the best week and found universal dislike from owners so had to increase the SOs to 148.1k to make sales. But, you bought Princeville (a voluntary resort) and changed to Lagunamar (another voluntary resort). Depending on when you bought, we might have advised you to spend that extra $5k for Maui instead since it is mandatory and would retain more value (though, of course, the Maui deeds have crashed over the last ten years).

I originally put a deposit (direct) for the proposed Westin Mission Hills North resort, which was never built. They tried to sell me a WKORV 2-bed (may have been EOY) instead for ~$21k (I posted about it at the time, and I don't recall the exact numbers) which was a great price at the time, but even then I was reluctant to buy anything in Maui given their attitude toward timeshare owners (and related taxes, which has only become worse over time) and the high MFs.

We are at the point we don't even want to go back to Maui, too many people. We were in stop and go traffic pretty much all the way from the airport to the Westin on our last trip, and we travel in shoulder seasons.

I hear you. That's a common complaint amongst those who remember when it was easier to get around. When I visit, I most often get to Lahaina and stay in West Maui for most, if not all, of my time on the island. I also haven't been to Cancun since my first trip in 2008 just months after Lagunamar opened and haven't missed it at all - I much prefer Hawaii.

 

[TravelTime]

Isn’t most of this speculating and complaining about how many DPs are assigned to a property mostly moot if they are making us buy a lot of points to enroll our ineligible resale week? If you are not going to buy points to enroll your Vistana week, then why do we care how many points they are assigning to the week? OTOH, if they allowed us to convert our week for free or nearly free, then we should not complain either because that would be a tremendous benefit to have access to two ways to exchange our week (DPs or SOs). But could/would MVC get rid of the SO program if they allowed everyone to enroll for free/low cost in the DP program?

The main negative I can see down the road to the integration would be if 1) we got locked out of booking our home resort week or 2) it becomes tremendously harder to exchange using SOs (some may say using SOs is already a challenge so not sure I am concerned about this point). So I can understand why Vistana owners are upset about the integration for these reasons.

 

[Ken555]

Isn’t most of this speculating and complaining about how many DPs are assigned to a property mostly moot if they are making us buy a lot of points to enroll our ineligible resale week? If you are not going to buy points to enroll your Vistana week, then why do we care how many points they are assigning to the week?

In order to determine if we enroll our resale weeks, we need to know the DP valuation and what that allocation would reasonably get us in exchange. The complaints you see here, at least from me, revolve around this issue, which is separate and distinct from any fees Marriott will charge to enroll the week(s).

If they do require us to buy another deed (or equivalent in points), as has been suggested, then that needs to be considered as well in order to determine if it's a good deal or not.

OTOH, if they allowed us to convert our week for free or nearly free, then we should not complain either because that would be a tremendous benefit to have access to two ways to exchange our week (DPs or SOs).

Yes. Even I have previously posted that if enrollment is a nominal cost, I would certainly consider it (all things being equal, such as the ability to actually USE the allocated DPs in a meaningful way...which I'm not sure of in my case).

But could/would MVC get rid of the SO program if they allowed everyone to enroll for free/low cost in the DP program?

This has also been discussed. If I was running the program, I would want to consolidate the networks...but I'm sure there are financial reasons to keep both for now, to the benefit of Marriott.

The main negative I can see down the road to the integration would be if 1) we got locked out of booking our home resort week

This won't happen if you have a deeded week.

or 2) it becomes tremendously harder to exchange using SOs (some may say using SOs is already a challenge so not sure I am concerned about this point).

"Some" say a lot of things. For 16+ years I've had a relatively easy time booking via SOs and have been able to get what I wanted almost every time.

So I can understand why Vistana owners are upset about the integration for these reasons.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sorry ... 10 free rounds per week of accommodations? Any costs at all at the course? I just got back from a week at SurfWatch ... I am very interested in this

Just to be clear, the feee rounds of golf come only with stays at the Heritage Club resort, and that's because it's paid for with a line-item in the annual MF's. I think the number per week was increased to 12 in 2021 as a result of the affiliation agreement between the resort and the golf provider being renewed? That number is reduced if you use Destination Club points to book less than a week. I'd call the front desk to confirm all the current details.

The other Hilton Head Island resorts have access to reduced golf fees at a few select courses, and I think there's a special phone number for information. Again, a call to the front desk of each resort should get you either that number or maybe the specific info.

 

[dioxide45]

My perspective is different. We originally purchased while in Maui, but purchased Princeville because of inequality. It was about $5k cheaper and I could still book Maui. A couple years later, without having ever been to Kauai, we traded in our Princeville lockoff for three platinum 148,100 Lagunamar lockoffs. While we were blown away by Lagunamar, a big part of this was Lagunamar was buy 2 get one free when compared to Princeville, even better when compared to Maui. Plus the maintenance fees were half of the Hawaiian resorts. I felt and still feel like we get huge value. For the last few years, we stay 10 weeks in a one bedroom with ocean view for our ~$5k maintenance fees.

We are at the point we don't even want to go back to Maui, too many people. We were in stop and go traffic pretty much all the way from the airport to the Westin on our last trip, and we travel in shoulder seasons.

This shows that the main problem is how Vistana marketed their product for many years. They would often price products based on the amount of StarOptions with perhaps a small premium to account for location and resort. I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high. Would $60K be wrong? I know that Lagunamar Weeks sold very high and seemed to be priced based on the amount of StarOptions and not really the underlying week. Is a resort in the Desert really worth $60K? No. They could sell it for that with the ability that it could exchange in to Maui on a one to one ratio with StarOptions. When Marriott rolled out their DC product in 2010, they based point values loosely on developer sales prices. Now when they try to integrate Vistana resorts into the same program, they can't really do is that way because they would have huge discrepancies. Like a week in Palm Desert being given 7,000 points. Or 7,000 points to book a week at a Westin in Palm Desert when the Marriott only costs 3,000.

In reality, that Princeville you bought should have cost far less than a Maui week. More than just $5000 less, but they could charge that much because of the ability to also book Maui.

 

[remowidget]

This shows that the main problem is how Vistana marketed their product for many years. They would often price products based on the amount of StarOptions with perhaps a small premium to account for location and resort. I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high. Would $60K be wrong? I know that Lagunamar Weeks sold very high and seemed to be priced based on the amount of StarOptions and not really the underlying week. Is a resort in the Desert really worth $60K? No. They could sell it for that with the ability that it could exchange in to Maui on a one to one ratio with StarOptions. When Marriott rolled out their DC product in 2010, they based point values loosely on developer sales prices. Now when they try to integrate Vistana resorts into the same program, they can't really do is that way because they would have huge discrepancies. Like a week in Palm Desert being given 7,000 points. Or 7,000 points to book a week at a Westin in Palm Desert when the Marriott only costs 3,000.

In reality, that Princeville you bought should have cost far less than a Maui week. More than just $5000 less, but they could charge that much because of the ability to also book Maui.

We paid about $35k a week for our Lagunamar 148,100 weeks. For us, the much lower maintenance fees was the clincher. If we had purchased resale Maui, we would have paid around $15k a week more in maintenance fees over the last 12 years.

At this point in my life, I am very glad we purchase from the developer. If we had purchased Maui resale, we would have sold when we had a few lean years in the middle. We wouldn't be traveling so much now. We definitely wouldn't have traveled during the lean years.

I've never really cared about resale value. I looked at our purchase like prepaying vacations. We wanted to travel and stay in nice places, which we have done. I compare it to a Motorhome. If I had spent $105K on one 12 years ago, it would not have a much resale value now.

 

[daviator]

Marriott seems to be taking a well oiled machine and adding so many new parts that it requires another engine just to keep going as fast, to the benefit of Marriott and Marriott only.

I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use. A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW. They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.

I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.” But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.

Now maybe I’m just overly cynical. Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site. But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.

All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own. But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.

 

[Ken555]

This shows that the main problem is how Vistana marketed their product for many years. They would often price products based on the amount of StarOptions with perhaps a small premium to account for location and resort. I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high. Would $60K be wrong?

I believe it was in the 30's.

 

[sharr7]

Per the developer pricing in the sticky threads, Princeville was $56k and Maui was $63k IV/$71k OV/$95k OF. Lagunamar 2BR tops out at $43k. With Xmas/NY weeks higher at all 3.

In my experience the developer pricing doesn't change much or at all. Which is interesting in itself. At least OF get more SOs.

 

[Ken555]

Per the developer pricing in the sticky threads, Princeville was $56k and Maui was $63k IV/$71k OV/$95k OF. Lagunamar 2BR tops out at $43k. With Xmas/NY weeks higher at all 3.

In my experience the developer pricing doesn't change much or at all. Which is interesting in itself. At least OF get more SOs.

They were much less 10 years ago.

 

[SandyPGravel]

I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use. A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW. They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.

I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.” But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.

Now maybe I’m just overly cynical. Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site. But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.

All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own. But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.

I agree with you. The number one reason I give when asked if I would recommend a timeshare to anyone is "No, it's too complicated." And that was when it was just Starwood/Vistana. Now with the Marriott aspect thrown into the mix, it's mind numbing. I kind of hope my WSJ ownerships are so devalued in the new system that I don't even feel the need to look at jumping into the Marriott pool.

 

[dioxide45]

I believe it was in the 30's.

Any idea what a WKV 2BR Plat last sold for direct? If my assumptions were incorrect, it seems the Club Point valuations aren't really as out of line as people seem to think. At least when based on sales prices.

 

[sharr7]

They were much less 10 years ago.

Those were from 2008. You saying they've gone up since?

I'm sure no one pays that number - there's always "limited time specials" and "discounts and credits we can offer you today only"

But those old numbers were still pretty accurate recently at HRA and they also quoted a matching number recently telling me what my STJ was "worth"

ETA: my resale STJ (WSJ)

 

[daviator]

I don't know what a 148,100 Westin Desert Willow 2BR sold for, but it was probably very high.

Looks like I paid $20,900 for my EOY 2 BR at WDW and then traded it for an EY a couple years later for an additional $20,935. So a little less than $42K all in, including closing costs, etc.

I have to add that part of what justified those high prices, in addition to the trading ability within VSN (Sales’ mantra at that time was “buy the most SOs with the lowest MFs”) was the perceived premium for Westin properties and Westin clientele. Sadly, I think that the premium Westin experience is in decline, and soon the floodgates will open to the Marriott hordes. I no longer feel that this is a premium product. (I am staying at WDW now… we set a bag of trash outside the door 48 hours ago and it’s still sitting there. Used to be that trash was picked up multiple times per day.)

 

[DanCali]

Any idea what a WKV 2BR Plat last sold for direct? If my assumptions were incorrect, it seems the Club Point valuations aren't really as out of line as people seem to think. At least when based on sales prices.

A couple of years ago the list price was around $60K but they had a 30% promo in the peak of covid (as did MVC for DC points), so it was around $42K. I think another tugger was quoted $48K (20% off) a few months prior.

 

[Mroze]

Looks like I paid $20,900 for my EOY 2 BR at WDW and then traded it for an EY a couple years later for an additional $20,935. So a little less than $42K all in, including closing costs, etc.

I have to add that part of what justified those high prices, in addition to the trading ability within VSN (Sales’ mantra at that time was “buy the most SOs with the lowest MFs”) was the perceived premium for Westin properties and Westin clientele. Sadly, I think that the premium Westin experience is in decline, and soon the floodgates will open to the Marriott hordes. I no longer feel that this is a premium product. (I am staying at WDW now… we set a bag of trash outside the door 48 hours ago and it’s still sitting there. Used to be that trash was picked up multiple times per day.)

We paid $22,900 in 2010 for an EOY 2BR-WLR-PLAT+ [148.1K], followed by $11,000 11 months later to make it EY for a total of just under $34K.
However, we did receive some incentives that were valued at about $7K [20% of the contract value].
Received 100K Star-Points [good for 2-Weeks in a nice Westin Hotel-Room] + 95.7K Star-Options that we used for 1-Week in a 2BR-WSJ.

Most people who purchase direct receive some incentives [Discounts, Hotel-Points, TS-Points] that can be worth 15-25% of the purchase price.

Maintenance-Fees

• MF Changes: MF have risen by 24% over 10+ years [averaging below 2%/Year].
  • MF [2BR-WLR/148.1K]: 2010 = $1207 --> 2021 = $1502
• Exception: 2022 saw the highest increase of 10% in MF. Still well below MF for any of the Hawaii-Resorts.

Exchange-Value

• Hawaii-Exchanges: Have traveled multiple times to all of the Westin's [always 2BR] in Hawaii via INTERVAL [using a Studio or 1BR]. Never used VSN. Average-Cost $100/Night
• Harborside-Exchanges: Have traveled multiple times to Bahamas [always 2BR] by exchanging via VSN for 12-Nights [153100-SO]. Always used VSN. Average-Cost $125/Night

 

[GonetoMaui]

You can add WKORV-N OF 176,700 - 8325

@GregT - I appreciate your sentiments. And quite frankly, I'm not too distressed about the merger. I can still use the properties as I intended as they are in places we like to go. I had hoped to continue building a bit more of my TS portfolio as I move towards retirement and gradually work less, but I can't see myself doing it at MVC prices when I know what value we had in Vistana.

I was informed that my WKOVR-N OV EY was valued at 6200 DP's. My Westin Flex and WMH (3150) values that were quoted to me at the same time have been confirmed in previous posts on this thread. If anyone else has information on this Maui DP value I would appreciate it. Thanks!

 

[DavidnRobin]

Not sure about the Stickie on Developer prices, but..,

WKORVN OF price was $68K - $74K (I know this because we bought and rescinded after finding TUG)
WKORVN IV was ~$48K (friend bought one even after warning not to - they regret it now)

WKORV OFD price was ~$65K (I know this because this is what the price the original owner paid for our 2006 resale after finding TUG)

WPORV price was $48K - $56K (we paid $24K for EOY)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[remowidget]

We paid $22,900 in 2010 for an EOY 2BR-WLR-PLAT+ [148.1K], followed by $11,000 11 months later to make it EY for a total of just under $34K.

This shows that people paid more apart than together.

 

[Mowogo]

I have been thinking and saying for years that one of Marriott's goals is to introduce more intentional complexity into an already-complex system and make it harder, or at least more complex, to use. A more complex system results in more owners who either do not use it effectively, do not use it at all, or walk away, each of which benefits MVW. They rent out the unreserved weeks and nights (for big bucks, in many cases) and when owners default on their ownerships, the HOAs (i.e. owners, *not* MVW) take the financial hit on any unpaid maintenance fees) and MVW gets a shiny new ownership back into their portfolio, at minimal cost, to resell at full price again.

I think they want to create lots of complicated ways to use our ownerships, so that they can always respond to confused owners with “you should have done x, you could have done y, you should buy more and then you could do z.” But all the while they are happy if many owners throw up their hands and leave their time unreserved.

Now maybe I’m just overly cynical. Obviously MVW does not want empty rooms, because they also profit from guests spending money on site. But they are pretty good at monetizing those empty rooms and filling them, and I suspect they will get even better at that in the future.

All of this is yet another good reason to be here on TUG, as few participants here will be baffled and unable to effectively use what they own. But from what I see in groups on Facebook, for example, MANY owners are confused about the existing Vistana system and throwing another layer on top is just going to confuse them more.

The complexity offers opportunity to upsell. Because if you want to take advantage of holidays in the newly accessible properties you will need more points for those weeks. Granted, the relatively generous acceptance of resale Destination Points has me thinking that is likely the way to grow my portfolio of qualified holdings

 

[Ken555]

Does anyone have any more pictures of points charts?

The attached has:

Westin St. John
Lagunamar
Westin Kaanapali North (I assume WKORV and Nanea are the same)
Sheraton Desert Oasis
Westin Kierland
Sheraton Vistana Resort

I'm particularly interested in WPORV (because I love that property) -- none of the Kauai Marriotts have 1BR options, except for the hotel conversion Kauai Beach Club, so having a true 1BR option will be additive.

Thanks very much!

Best,

Greg

According to these images, a winter 2-bed at WKV will cost 5,400 DPs. If they're only offering 4,050 for that week then there is a differential of 1,350 or 25%. Can this truly be accurate?

For the same time period, SDO will cost just 3,125.

 

[DanCali]

According to these images, a winter 2-bed at WKV will cost 5,400 DPs. If they're only offering 4,050 for that week then there is a differential of 1,350 or 25%. Can this truly be accurate?

For the same time period, SDO will cost just 3,125.

No - You can't go off the highest point requirement.

A couple of hundred posts ago (maybe more at this point) I did a calculation. You have to take the average required to book weeks 1-21 and 51-52 (Platinum season). That would be the fair value. 4050 is about an 8%-9% haircut....

 

[Ken555]

No - You can't go off the highest point requirement.

A couple of hundred posts ago (maybe more at this point) I did a calculation. You have to take the average required to book weeks 1-21 and 51-52 (Platinum season). That would be the fair value. 4050 is about an 8%-9% haircut....

Ok. That PDF isn't easy to read so when we get the official docs I'll review this again. I'm sure you're correct.