CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[SandyPGravel]

Just sat through an update/sales presentation at WSJ. They said the conversion rate for ownerships here would be 28:1, the same as all the Westins. They offered to retro all of my weeks (7 resale) for $5K each in new purchases and were offering "close out pricing" on deeds/ownership certificates here - 25% off of what they started out at. Here are a couple more pictures of point cost charts for the Marriott bookings:

View attachment 51479
View attachment 51480
Somewhat interesting that their statement was that I would only get 28:1 as a conversion for my fixed week fixed unit ownerships - if true it might be beneficial for a 1 BR Premium Platinum+ week in April where that would yield more points than booking it would cost through the DC. Seems odd, but ok. Same would be true for my studio week 51, where I would get 40 more points than it would cost.

Curious, did they offer any VGV units at 25% off? Two years ago I did an update 10 days before the pandemic shut everything down. Big push to get in with Marriott. Guy was kind of an arrogant jerk.(Shocking) Was rather rude to my husband(& me) because my husband deferred to me. (I'm the one that understands the system, he just comes along to pay for everything and enjoy himself .) Showed us a printout that they had 0 VGV units available. Tried to get us to bite on a Sunset unit. Wasn't interested. Units are beautiful, kitchen sucks if you cook most of your meals.

 

[Eric B]

Curious, did they offer any VGV units at 25% off? Two years ago I did an update 10 days before the pandemic shut everything down. Big push to get in with Marriott. Guy was kind of an arrogant jerk.(Shocking) Was rather rude to my husband(& me) because my husband deferred to me. (I'm the one that understands the system, he just comes along to pay for everything and enjoy himself .) Showed us a printout that they had 0 VGV units available. Tried to get us to bite on a Sunset unit. Wasn't interested. Units are beautiful, kitchen sucks if you cook most of your meals.

They did have VGV units also 25% off of the original quoted price (what a deal!). There were quite a few on the printout and they offered us a couple of options that would have given us an additional week in the spring or a week 50 right before our week 51. Thought about the latter because it would have been in the same unit, but the price point was wrong compared to resale availability and that wouldn't have been a platinum+ week, not that we'd trade it.

They did offer a few Sunset Bay options; completely agree about the kitchens there. Someone might be able to figure out how to cook in those combination microwaves and with just a 2-burner cooktop, but it never works all that well for me.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

They won't allow any resale into DC. They haven't done it since 2010 for Marriott owners. They aren't going to start now with us lowly Vistana owners.

If so that's even more inventory in Vistana and less in DC. More for us resale owners.

 

[SueDonJ]

I'd be very curious to know what percent of pre-2010 owners actually enrolled their weeks. The allowed enrollment for ~2K for resale owners and $600 for retail buyers (numbers may be off slightly, and slightly higher for 2+ weeks owners). That's a no-brainer compared to the $30K required to enroll post-2010 weeks, but I have a feeling quite a few owners still have not enrolled even 12 years later. And I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is lower on the retail week owners' side.

We just purchased a Marriott week from an original MVC buyer from 20 years ago who had not enrolled it at all. I believe he was just using or renting the week, as he always intended to do. Most people don't like change and they definitely don't like getting ripped off twice. I'm not saying those enrollment fees are a ripoff, but when owners discover that their full price retail purchase is actually worth 80%-90% less, they don't necessarily want to buy anything else from that company ever again...

I think TUGgers in general would be shocked to learn the numbers of owners who only ever use their timeshares as they were purchased - home resort, in season, in same unit size (so, they have no need of an exchange company, any exchange company.) Even more shocking, there are owners who do not use their timeshares at all but continue paying the MF's every year. I don't get that at all but I know two people in real life who fit this category, and I know that Marriott and the other timeshare companies are only too happy to have the rights to use these non-reserved intervals to generate rental income.

 

[jabberwocky]

WSJ-VGV had 2 SO adjustments, and WKORV/N OF had 1 SO adjustment.


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But these were both increases, correct? I don't think they can drop SO allocations.

 

[SueDonJ]

One thing to remember since many facets of this whole acquisition were driven by Marriott hotels both directly and indirectly. If the hotels want the timeshares to be integrated anywhere close to the level that the hotel brands are. Thus while MVW may have wanted to have some sort of fee, seamless transfers between the different systems may have ranked higher than the extra income from fees. The way you get seamless transfers is to have a program that doesn't cost too much more for the added benefits so that more will play in the new program. If it was a purchase then you have a lot of owners that would run away, and they need the inventory exchanging quickly.

I'm not sure I understand what this is supposed to mean? What about the hotel company would drive the timeshare business, considering that the hotel and timeshare companies are completely separate entities?

I'm also not sure what fees are being talked about here, but I think it's worth noting in the overall discussion that Marriott Vacations Worldwide generates far more income from the annual Club Dues fees for enrolled Weeks owners than from the one-time Enrollment Fee that those owners paid to join the Destination Club. I don't think that it's been said that Vistana owners/members who join the DC won't be charged annual dues.

 

[SueDonJ]

If that happened down the road, I would assume that mandatory resale units would be a big winner. The club resorts have to be part of the network program. I’m just confused on how they can change the membership fee for VSN members who are not part of the conversion opportunity. Everyone will pay the new increased club dues but not have access to all of the benefits?

With the caveat that none of the fees for enrollment have been officially confirmed, didn't Denise's Q&A contact say that the VSN annual fees would be increased only for all of the owners who choose to also play in the Destination Club sandbox, effectively bringing their annual fees in line with the annual Club Dues fees that are charged to Marriott DC members?

 

[SueDonJ]

They won't allow any resale into DC. They haven't done it since 2010 for Marriott owners. They aren't going to start now with us lowly Vistana owners.

This isn't correct.

At the 6/20/10 initial Destination Club rollout every previously-sold Week was eligible for enrollment, direct-purchase and external-resale alike. (And with enrollment of external-resales came the benefit to exchange for Marriott Rewards (now Bonvoy) Points, which is not an official benefit for non-enrolled external resales.)

For a period of years nothing changed - and to this day all pre-6/20/10 Weeks remain officially eligible for enrollment.

BUT at some point they introduced a sales incentive, that still intermittently cycles through, that allows officially-ineligible (read: post-6/20/10 external resales) Weeks to be enrolled with the direct purchase of DC Points. Yes, it costs a lot of money to buy DC Points direct, but even some savvy TUGgers have seen value in this incentive and have bought DC Points in order to enroll external resale Weeks that they purchased after 6/20/10.

I don't know what if anything that tidbit means for Vistana owners going forward. I'm just trying to help make sure that everything Vistana owners might want to consider during this process, about how Marriott currently works, is correct.

 

[jabberwocky]

I think TUGgers in general would be shocked to learn the numbers of owners who only ever use their timeshares as they were purchased - home resort, in season, in same unit size (so, they have no need of an exchange company, any exchange company.) Even more shocking, there are owners who do not use their timeshares at all but continue paying the MF's every year. I don't get that at all but I know two people in real life who fit this category, and I know that Marriott and the other timeshare companies are only too happy to have the rights to use these non-reserved intervals to generate rental income.

I think there are a lot. When I was at the pool I chatted with two other couples from Canada. One couple owned 5 weeks and the other 6 weeks. All were purchased on the resale market at next to nothing. They book their weeks consecutively from mid-February to late-March/early-April. I asked if they ever thought about bringing their units into VSN or trading in II - they laughed and said they didn't see the need to spend thousands and pay more fees when they are happy with enjoying what they own already.

 

[Red elephant]

With the caveat that none of the fees for enrollment have been officially confirmed, didn't Denise's Q&A contact say that the VSN annual fees would be increased only for all of the owners who choose to also play in the Destination Club sandbox, effectively bringing their annual fees in line with the annual Club Dues fees that are charged to Marriott DC members?

My understanding was that they would be only one club fee for everyone . If it was limited to owners who choose to convert then some Vistana owners will be forced to pay two fees. If I convert my WSJ week and not my SVV week then I would be paying a club fee and a VSN fee that year.

 

[Red elephant]

If so that's even more inventory in Vistana and less in DC. More for us resale owners.

My impression was that resale ownership is not the majority but a small percentage of owners. So the reverse would be true. More inventory would go to the DC inventory as more owners choose to convert each year.

 

[jabberwocky]

* (The other day there was a comment about how it's divisive to say "Marriott people" or "Vistana people" - I have always used those terms to refer to the people who usually frequent one or the other of the TUG Marriott and Vistana forums, same as I use "Wyndham people, Disney people" etc. That's it, no divisiveness or insult intended.)

As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?

I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.

 

[SueDonJ]

My understanding was that they would be only one club fee for everyone . If it was limited to owners who choose to convert then some Vistana owners will be forced to pay two fees. If I convert my WSJ week and not my SVV week then I would be paying a club fee and a VSN fee that year.

Hmmm. I just looked back and I think what confused me was the question about the fee structure, and the answers that 1) VSN fees would increase but the increase would cover the per-transaction fees that will be going away, and 2) the VSN annual fee will be tiered not based on whether an owner chooses to enroll but on the level of ownership.

I wonder if that's why there won't be an enrollment fee, because every VSN owner will be automatically enrolled and charged the newly-structured VSN fees?

 

[VacationForever]

As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?

I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.

What about I am a 80% Marriott and 20% Vistana person? We love both systems.

 

[kozykritter]

As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?

I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.

Think of it this way.. you already are a Marriott person because they own Vistana

 

[Eric B]

As a person who owns Vistana, can I self-identify as a Marriott person?

I've always liked reading the Marriott forums and learning about that system.

What about I am a 80% Marriott and 20% Vistana person? We love both systems.

I own Vistana, Hilton, Wyndham, WorldMark, and a few independents, but am Marriott curious. I consider myself pan-TS-systemic.

 

[cubigbird]

Just sat through an update/sales presentation at WSJ. They said the conversion rate for ownerships here would be 28:1, the same as all the Westins. They offered to retro all of my weeks (7 resale) for $5K each in new purchases and were offering "close out pricing" on deeds/ownership certificates here - 25% off of what they started out at. Here are a couple more pictures of point cost charts for the Marriott bookings:

View attachment 51479
View attachment 51480
Somewhat interesting that their statement was that I would only get 28:1 as a conversion for my fixed week fixed unit ownerships - if true it might be beneficial for a 1 BR Premium Platinum+ week in April where that would yield more points than booking it would cost through the DC. Seems odd, but ok. Same would be true for my studio week 51, where I would get 40 more points than it would cost.

Ouch! With my Diamond season SB weeks that means we get well less than a week in DC. That seems quite a skin. At a 28:1 ratio I would never enroll my week in DC. Then again we use our WSJ ownership at WSJ and have never exchanged it.

 

[bogey21]

The growth and changes in Marriott boggle my mind. I go back to when I used to eat at Marriott's 2nd (I think it was their 2nd) Hot Shoppe drive in restaurant in suburban Philadelphia when I was a 13 or 14 year old kid. And look at where they are today...

George

 

[bizaro86]

But these were both increases, correct? I don't think they can drop SO allocations.

That's a distinction without a practical difference. You can effectively make any adjustment with only increases by leaving whatever you would drop the most flat and increasing everything else by varying amounts.

I expect that is how they would do it if they wanted to, because then nobody has their points go down, even if effectively it is exactly the same thing.

 

[Ken555]

Hmmm. I just looked back and I think what confused me was the question about the fee structure, and the answers that 1) VSN fees would increase but the increase would cover the per-transaction fees that will be going away, and 2) the VSN annual fee will be tiered not based on whether an owner chooses to enroll but on the level of ownership.

I wonder if that's why there won't be an enrollment fee, because every VSN owner will be automatically enrolled and charged the newly-structured VSN fees?

Adding another wrinkle… let’s not forget that those of us with voluntary weeks that are traded via II pay an annual II membership fee…unless I used SDO at SDO I will be paying that fee, so Marriott/II may actually profit more by keeping that week voluntary especially if they are waiving the trading fees for enrolled weeks.


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[CPNY]

With the caveat that none of the fees for enrollment have been officially confirmed, didn't Denise's Q&A contact say that the VSN annual fees would be increased only for all of the owners who choose to also play in the Destination Club sandbox, effectively bringing their annual fees in line with the annual Club Dues fees that are charged to Marriott DC members?

I asked that question and the answer was unclear. It original answer by the contact and what has been stated in the fine print on the picture that was posted is that all VSN members will pay the new club dues. Along with those dues are the removal of banking fees, exchange fees, etc. if ALL VSN members (mandatory resale owners included) pay the new dues and have the added benefits of those fees being removed, that’s a big win for resale mandatory owners even if they can’t convert to DC points. I’d expect the new club fee would come with all of the added benefits without the conversion opportunity. Same way they can’t convert to bonvoy points. I speculated this when I first joined. I figured they would use that as a benchmark, if you can convert to bonvoy you’d be able to convert to DC points.

 

[CPNY]

I wonder if that's why there won't be an enrollment fee, because every VSN owner will be automatically enrolled and charged the newly-structured VSN fees?

This is the question of the day and the root of all speculation posts. A mandatory resale resort participates in the VSN with limited capabilities. Yes we can book reservations using star options but we cannot convert to bonvoy points or use star options for resort credits and some other usage options. Even though we cannot use those benefits we still pay the same VSN fee as others who are enrolled. For that reason I think every VSN member (enrolled and unenrolled) will pay the new club dues but the unenrolled VSN member (mandatory resale owner) will NOT be able to convert to DC program unless they retro with a new VOI purchase. Along with those new club dues, we will have the free SO banking and free internal interval exchanges, but not the DC conversion. That’s what I believe will happen.

 

[VacationForever]

This is the question of the day and the root of all speculation posts. A mandatory resale resort participates in the VSN with limited capabilities. Yes we can book reservations using star options but we cannot convert to bonvoy points or use star options for resort credits and some other usage options. Even though we cannot use those benefits we still pay the same VSN fee as others who are enrolled. For that reason I think every VSN member (enrolled and unenrolled) will pay the new club dues but the unenrolled VSN member (mandatory resale owner) will NOT be able to convert to DC program unless they retro with a new VOI purchase. Along with those new club dues, we will have the free SO banking and free internal interval exchanges, but not the DC conversion. That’s what I believe will happen.

Definitely a possibility.

 

[SueDonJ]

Adding another wrinkle… let’s not forget that those of us with voluntary weeks that are traded via II pay an annual II membership fee…unless I used SDO at SDO I will be paying that fee, so Marriott/II may actually profit more by keeping that week voluntary especially if they are waiving the trading fees for enrolled weeks.


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Another tidbit ... with enrollment of Marriott Weeks comes a new II corporate account that looks and acts exactly the same as II individual accounts, except that the II account renewal and Marriott-to-Marriott exchange transaction fees are waived in it. Somebody like me who only owns Marriott enrolled Weeks can then allow the individual account to lapse. But somebody who owns, in addition to enrolled-Marriott Weeks, other non-enrolled-Marriott Weeks or non-Marriott weeks/points that they exchange via II must keep their individual II accounts, paying the renewal and transaction fees in those accounts.

 

[Ken555]

Another tidbit ... with enrollment of Marriott Weeks comes a new II corporate account that looks and acts exactly the same as II individual accounts, except that the II account renewal and Marriott-to-Marriott exchange transaction fees are waived in it. Somebody like me who only owns Marriott enrolled Weeks can then allow the individual account to lapse. But somebody who owns, in addition to enrolled-Marriott Weeks, other non-enrolled-Marriott Weeks or non-Marriott weeks/points that they exchange via II must keep their individual II accounts, paying the renewal and transaction fees in those accounts.

Other than the waived fees for M to M exchanges, this is similar to my II account for my mandatory week. I have two II accounts.


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