CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Mowogo]

Marriott can certainly change VSN unilaterally, but they will want to make it look like nothing is changing for owners that don't opt for the new program. Also that you can continue to do what you do today. This looks better for PR and also shields them from lawsuit, regardless if they are legally in the right by changing VSN in such a drastic way. Lawsuits are expensive, even when you can win.

The true changes to VSN would come more from inventory that trades in VSN will begin a slow death with the inventory shifting to trading in the new program because owners are purchasing that product and voluntary resales leaving the network. Nothing changes with the VSN program and it still exists for Mandatory owners, but the inventory trading within is likely to decline over time. That is how they get away with doing it and being able to survive the lawsuits.

 

[needvaca]

The true changes to VSN would come more from inventory that trades in VSN will begin a slow death with the inventory shifting to trading in the new program because owners are purchasing that product and voluntary resales leaving the network. Nothing changes with the VSN program and it still exists for Mandatory owners, but the inventory trading within is likely to decline over time. That is how they get away with doing it and being able to survive the lawsuits.

Meh. They've been claiming this since they introduced Sheraton Flex in 2015, and it's false. I own multiple mandatory units and I've seen no decline at all in inventory in any of the properties over the last 7 years. I'm always able to reserve at my home resorts at 12 months and I've gotten great reservations in Hawaii, St. John and Bahamas at 8 months. I'd make a bet nothing will change for at least the next 5-10 years. I'm sticking with my mandatory ownerships until I see concrete proof that I can't get the reservations I want.
As we all know, salespeople lie.

 

[Mowogo]

Meh. They've been claiming this since they introduced Sheraton Flex in 2015, and it's false. I own multiple mandatory units and I've seen no decline at all in inventory in any of the properties over the last 7 years. I'm always able to reserve at my home resorts at 12 months and I've gotten great reservations in Hawaii, St. John and Bahamas at 8 months. I'd make a bet nothing will change for at least the next 5-10 years. I'm sticking with my mandatory ownerships until I see concrete proof that I can't get the reservations I want.
As we all know, salespeople lie.

Flex never really impacted what trades in VSN, as that is still VSN inventory. They try to scare you that the weeks are hard to book for home reservations, and this is really the first impact where inventory that would have traded within VSN disappears from that network because it is circulating in Destination Club. We have to remember that a lot of owners aren't in the crowd to maximize ownership and tend to go along with what the sales staff guides them toward. I could definitely see a lot of retail owners doing whatever opt in is necessary to change to trading in the new system over VSN because it gives access to more resorts. And even at 32:1, I can see some legitimate arguments for flex owners jumping at any sort of enrollment opportunity under $2000. It is something that I see as stealth, as owners go and get their orientation on the new program, then they start looking at those trades. Remember, people on here are the crowd to maximize ownership, but the entire timeshare business model depends on the average person who sees them as a good idea purchasing from the developer. If these owners are no longer trading through VSN primarily, that is a significant amount of inventory that is no longer in VSN.

 

[daviator]

Flex never really impacted what trades in VSN, as that is still VSN inventory. They try to scare you that the weeks are hard to book for home reservations, and this is really the first impact where inventory that would have traded within VSN disappears from that network because it is circulating in Destination Club. We have to remember that a lot of owners aren't in the crowd to maximize ownership and tend to go along with what the sales staff guides them toward. I could definitely see a lot of retail owners doing whatever opt in is necessary to change to trading in the new system over VSN because it gives access to more resorts. And even at 32:1, I can see some legitimate arguments for flex owners jumping at any sort of enrollment opportunity under $2000. It is something that I see as stealth, as owners go and get their orientation on the new program, then they start looking at those trades. Remember, people on here are the crowd to maximize ownership, but the entire timeshare business model depends on the average person who sees them as a good idea purchasing from the developer. If these owners are no longer trading through VSN primarily, that is a significant amount of inventory that is no longer in VSN.

OK, but am I wrong in thinking that every week that no longer trades in VSN is also an owner that is no longer competing for inventory in VSN? It seems to me that the perceived availability of inventory for folks in VSN doesn't change unless the numbers get really, really low.

Let's pull some numbers out of the air. Let's say there are 10 resorts with 400 rooms per resort. 10x400x50 (weeks) = 200,000 weeks in VSN, with 200,000 week owners competing to use those weeks in the network.

Now let's say that half those weeks enroll in some new system and are no longer traded in VSN. So now you've got 100,000 weeks in VSN, but only 100,000 week owners vying for those weeks. Perceived availability stays exactly the same. The numbers would have to get really, really low before VSN owners/users noticed any difference.

Am I wrong about that?

 

[YYJMSP]

Am I wrong about that?

that's how it should work. the issue is how does VSE choose which specific week to pull out of VSN inventory.

they could spread them evenly across the season, which would not have as much visible impact on the remaining owners until the bucket is small.

or at the other extreme, they could pull all the high demand weeks out first (to make it more exciting for "DC" members), which would be more quickly noticeable to the remaining owners before the bucket got small enough that the other scenario (not enough weeks left) became a problem

inventory management is a black box to owners, so we have no idea what happens

same is true for weeks converted to Bonvoy points or exchanged into Interval. so, I'm somewhat hopeful the impact will be similar and largely unnoticed at 12mos and 8mos out. it will likely be more felt by those who wait to book...

 

[daviator]

that's how it should work. the issue is how does VSE choose which specific week to pull out of VSN inventory.

they could spread them evenly across the season, which would not have as much visible impact on the remaining owners until the bucket is small.

or at the other extreme, they could pull all the high demand weeks out first (to make it more exciting for "DC" members), which would be more quickly noticeable to the remaining owners before the bucket got small enough that the other scenario (not enough weeks left) became a problem

inventory management is a black box to owners, so we have no idea what happens

same is true for weeks converted to Bonvoy points or exchanged into Interval. so, I'm somewhat hopeful the impact will be similar and largely unnoticed at 12mos and 8mos out. it will likely be more felt by those who wait to book...

Hmm, I am thinking they would have to pull the actual weeks traded into the new system by owners. All of us with deeded weeks actually do own a specific unit and week in the year (look at your deed) – it's just that under the VSN program, you are never limited to reserving just that week or just that unit, so they never talk about it. I'd have to go back and look at my deeds to see what weeks I actually own. Oh, actually you can see if you go to the Vistana dashboard and select "What I Own."

So at WKORV, I own Week 25, Villa 321109. If I traded into this new program (however that might work) I would presume that my Week 25 is what would go into that pool. (And yay, Week 25 probably isn't a bad one to own if VSN ever went away, lol. End of June or so.)

So presuming that the assignment of actual week numbers to deeded owners is basically random, they should get a relatively random selection of weeks going into the new pool. Some good, some bad, some meh.

Now if they are able to cherry pick whatever weeks they want, they could really screw the existing owners who don't elect into the new program. But I'm not sure it is in their interest to piss off a bunch of their long-time owners.

 

[YYJMSP]

So at WKORV, I own Week 25, Villa 321109. If I traded into this new program (however that might work) I would presume that my Week 25 is what would go into that pool. (And yay, Week 25 probably isn't a bad one to own if VSN ever went away, lol. End of June or so.)

unless you paid extra to fix your week and unit, you bought a floating week unit for a specific unit size with a specific view category in a specific season -- those values on your deed are only for accounting purposes, so that they didn't sell more unit weeks than exist.

I believe there is some verbiage in the paperwork that says something along those lines.

my gut says it will be a nightmare if specific week/units get transferred around. I think they will just do first-come first-served within the season, just keeping count of how many total weeks are in each inventory. similar to what is probably already happening with the various buckets...

 

[Mowogo]

unless you paid extra to fix your week and unit, you bought a floating week unit for a specific unit size with a specific view category in a specific season -- those values on your deed are only for accounting purposes, so that they didn't sell more unit weeks than exist.

I believe there is some verbiage in the paperwork that says something along those lines.

my gut says it will be a nightmare if specific week/units get transferred around. I think they will just do first-come first-served within the season, just keeping count of how many total weeks are in each inventory. similar to what is probably already happening with the various buckets...

And specifically says that with floating weeks Vistana has the right to use any week within the season to exchange. Really gives them the right where there are opportunities for some hostile interpretations should someone in management decide to actively try and steer inventory if they so wished. Current management could be benevolent, but who is to say 2 years from now a new person in inventory management decides to get hostile to legacy VSN to improve access for the new DC.

 

[daviator]

unless you paid extra to fix your week and unit, you bought a floating week unit for a specific unit size with a specific view category in a specific season -- those values on your deed are only for accounting purposes, so that they didn't sell more unit weeks than exist.

I believe there is some verbiage in the paperwork that says something along those lines.

my gut says it will be a nightmare if specific week/units get transferred around. I think they will just do first-come first-served within the season, just keeping count of how many total weeks are in each inventory. similar to what is probably already happening with the various buckets...

Yes, I know they are all treated as floating weeks (with the exception of Christmas week which was sold as a fixed "event week.") But down at the county recorder's office, people with deeded weeks own the unit and week specified on their deed. If Vistana ever went belly-up, we'd probably own those specified units and weeks. But you are correct that it's also all controlled by the contracts, so perhaps they have the right to play games with the inventory as you suggest.

I think, though, that if they were to do so, they'd be angering many of their best customers, and the ones who pay those maintenance fees year after year without complaint. It seems like a pretty foolish thing to do, and they'd be opening themselves up to litigation. Maybe they'd prevail, who knows. But I'm hopeful that we won't have to find out.

I think it's fine for them to introduce a new game and invite owners to play it if they choose to. But I don't think they should be able to change the rules of the game we bought into, at least not in a way that disadvantages us. Of course, they've already been doing so for years, a little bit at a time.

 

[YYJMSP]

I suspect the answer will be you did not buy "Week 25, Villa 321109", you bought a 2BR OV L/O floating in weeks 1-50. anything else was just for inventory control purposes, since you did not buy a fixed week product.

otherwise, there will be 25 owners per unit week angry at the lessor desirable week they were allocated vs the 25 owners per unit week pleasantly surprised they own desirable weeks if it really did tie back to the recorded week and unit.

would you be happy if you got week 25 second floor in building 3 as your default booking every year, which you then had to let go of and hope someone else let go of the week (and building and floor) that you really wanted? that's how some of the fixed-float deeds work -- I get up to 10mos in advance to let go of my fixed unit and hope I can float to something else I actually want, and if I didn't float it at exactly 12mos, I risk what I want being snatched up.

 

[daviator]

I suspect the answer will be you did not buy "Week 25, Villa 321109", you bought a 2BR OV L/O floating in weeks 1-50. anything else was just for inventory control purposes, since you did not buy a fixed week product.

otherwise, there will be 25 owners per unit week angry at the lessor desirable week they were allocated vs the 25 owners per unit week pleasantly surprised they own desirable weeks if it really did tie back to the recorded week and unit.

would you be happy if you got week 25 second floor in building 3 as your default booking every year, which you then had to let go of and hope someone else let go of the week (and building and floor) that you really wanted? that's how some of the fixed-float deeds work -- I get up to 10mos in advance to let go of my fixed unit and hope I can float to something else I actually want, and if I didn't float it at exactly 12mos, I risk what I want being snatched up.

I don't think we disagree, I think we are just talking about different things.

We all actually own a specific unit and week (well, those of us with deeded weeks.) What we actually own is recorded in the county records. But we have rights to use a floating week, not our specific week and unit, and it's all specified in the contract with SVO/Vistana. Those contracts are recorded too, in most instances. I think the only instance in which we would revert to having access only to our specified unit and week would be if Vistana went bankrupt and nobody bought the business assets, rendering the contracts null and void. You don't have a contract if one party is dead and there is no successor. I think that's about as unlikely a scenario as I can imagine. It's not going to happen.

But when we talk about people trading their week into a new Marriott program, I'm still unclear on whether MVW can pick and choose the specific weeks they want, whether they have to use the specified weeks from the deeds, whether they have to pick randomly, or what. And even if they CAN pick and choose, will they? Certainly if they suck all of the desirable weeks out of all of the properties, it might incentivize people to join the new program, but it's also going to make a lot of people really angry. I don't know about you, but I would not give more money to a company I was angry with, nor would I accept being bullied into it. So I think they'd be playing a very risky game if they do that. Like I said, pissing off your core market would be an interesting business tactic.

It may become even more important to book as early as possible, and it may indeed become harder to book outside of your home resort period. I guess we will find out.

 

[Mowogo]

But when we talk about people trading their week into a new Marriott program, I'm still unclear on whether MVW can pick and choose the specific weeks they want, whether they have to use the specified weeks from the deeds, whether they have to pick randomly, or what. And even if they CAN pick and choose, will they? Certainly if they suck all of the desirable weeks out of all of the properties, it might incentivize people to join the new program, but it's also going to make a lot of people really angry. I don't know about you, but I would not give more money to a company I was angry with, nor would I accept being bullied into it. So I think they'd be playing a very risky game if they do that. Like I said, pissing off your core market would be an interesting business tactic.

The documentation states that Vistana can deposit any week within season when an exchange deposit is made. That discomfort would be by design to try and get some of the hold outs to upgrade and join because remember that timeshare sales rely on emotions. They normally try to sell through fear, but when coordinated they can sell through anger through promoting the belief that the reason that it has gotten harder to exchange through VSN is because so many of the VSN owners exchange in the new program. And if Flex is a low to no cost switch to exchange into the new program then you could start seeing some inventory issues.

 

[SunanFunGirl]

We are currently at SVV in Orlando and did our owner update yesterday. Our salesperson told us Marriott is introducing the "playground" the end of Q2. He stated those that own MVC will then have access to all properties (Vistana etc.) with the exception of the newly acquired Hyatt properties. He then went on to say that if we stick with our mandatory ownership, our inventory will likely continue to be filtered out and we will be stuck (his words) with the one specific week noted on our deed. He also said that is all Marriott legally owes us and said don't expect anything else. Is this really where things are headed with this merger or is this a scare tactic to purchase more?

 

[DanCali]

...He then went on to say that if we stick with our mandatory ownership, our inventory will likely continue to be filtered out and we will be stuck (his words) with the one specific week noted on our deed. He also said that is all Marriott legally owes us and said don't expect anything else. Is this really where things are headed with this merger or is this a scare tactic to purchase more?

It is true that all they legally owe you is what you bought. But the truth was somewhat stretched.... Most Vistana owners did not buy fixed week and the week on the deed was assigned pretty much at random. Most owners bought a week in a season, and this is what would be on a representative purchase agreement.

As for exchanges via Vistana, I'm pretty sure the purchase documents also say that the ownership is part of a larger exchange network but also that exchange availability cannot be guaranteed in the future.

But these are old sales scare tactics intended to cause fear and desire for the convenient "solution" that typically involves spending "only" $20K-$40K to buy the new shiny object. Inventory is not just "filtered out"... you can say the same thing about II. If Interval was a great exchange alternative, then there would be no inventory in Vistana - that was not the case. If Marriott will be such a great exchange alternative, it could be that owners who might otherwise trade in Vistana would go through Marriott thus taking that inventory out of Vistana. But they need to make it compelling for a sufficiently large number of owners for there to be a noticeable impact. It won't happen overnight, if ever.

 

[dioxide45]

Yes, I know they are all treated as floating weeks (with the exception of Christmas week which was sold as a fixed "event week.") But down at the county recorder's office, people with deeded weeks own the unit and week specified on their deed. If Vistana ever went belly-up, we'd probably own those specified units and weeks. But you are correct that it's also all controlled by the contracts, so perhaps they have the right to play games with the inventory as you suggest.

I think, though, that if they were to do so, they'd be angering many of their best customers, and the ones who pay those maintenance fees year after year without complaint. It seems like a pretty foolish thing to do, and they'd be opening themselves up to litigation. Maybe they'd prevail, who knows. But I'm hopeful that we won't have to find out.

I think it's fine for them to introduce a new game and invite owners to play it if they choose to. But I don't think they should be able to change the rules of the game we bought into, at least not in a way that disadvantages us. Of course, they've already been doing so for years, a little bit at a time.

The only way it would become only week 25 would be if the resort ceased being a timeshare and you became a joint tenant with all the other 51 other owners of the unit. That would only happen at sunset of the resort and in that case the property ends up being sold and proceeds distributed to all the owners. If Vistana goes belly up, it is up to the BOD to find a new management company to manage the resort in the way it is laid out in the CC&R documents for the condominium which outline the floating week system.

 

[felixhausdorf]

The only way it would become only week 25 would be if the resort ceased being a timeshare and you became a joint tenant with all the other 51 other owners of the unit. That would only happen at sunset of the resort and in that case the property ends up being sold and proceeds distributed to all the owners. If Vistana goes belly up, it is up to the BOD to find a new management company to manage the resort in the way it is laid out in the CC&R documents for the condominium which outline the floating week system.

I took a look at What I own" on the Vistana website. (I have a "floating" week at KOR and one at WDW.) Both say "Week 50". I'm guessing they put that for all floating weeks, otherwis it would be a weird coincidence?

 

[dioxide45]

I took a look at What I own" on the Vistana website. (I have a "floating" week at KOR and one at WDW.) Both say "Week 50". I'm guessing they put that for all floating weeks, otherwis it would be a weird coincidence?

What matters is what is on the deed and in the resort CCR documents. That is where the floating system is defined.

 

[jabberwocky]

I took a look at What I own" on the Vistana website. (I have a "floating" week at KOR and one at WDW.) Both say "Week 50". I'm guessing they put that for all floating weeks, otherwis it would be a weird coincidence?

It’s a rare occurrence - but yes it’s just coincidence that they are both week 50 (unless you had set out to find deeds with those specific week numbers - which I think unlikely).

 

[CPNY]

We are currently at SVV in Orlando and did our owner update yesterday. Our salesperson told us Marriott is introducing the "playground" the end of Q2. He stated those that own MVC will then have access to all properties (Vistana etc.) with the exception of the newly acquired Hyatt properties. He then went on to say that if we stick with our mandatory ownership, our inventory will likely continue to be filtered out and we will be stuck (his words) with the one specific week noted on our deed. He also said that is all Marriott legally owes us and said don't expect anything else. Is this really where things are headed with this merger or is this a scare tactic to purchase more?

“Marriott snobs” won’t book Vistana resorts. They feel Marriott is far superior to Westin and Sheraton properties.

 

[mjm1]

“Marriott snobs” won’t book Vistana resorts. They feel Marriott is far superior to Westin and Sheraton properties.

And I have heard vice-versa. We own both and think both systems have great resorts. Whether we are able to trade internally between them or not we will enjoy what we have. That said, I do look forward to seeing what they roll out.

Best regards.

Mike

 

[CPNY]

And I have heard vice-versa. We own both and think both systems have great resorts. Whether we are able to trade internally between them or not we will enjoy what we have. That said, I do look forward to seeing what they roll out.

Best regards.

Mike

I think Marriott does have some excellent properties as well. My comment was written in jest, as I’ve heard Marriott sales reps refer to Marriott owners as “proud Marriott snobs”.

 

[Ron00]

Own an enrolled Marriott deeded week and WKORV. Just returned from Nanea and received the offer to buy something for $25k, and enroll our WKORV week. Noted that was more than we paid for both our weeks, and to enroll the Marriott. Folks are forgetting the first rule of timeshare, "Buy Resale". If you're interested in the Marriott program, then take the $25k and buy DC points resale.

 

[DanCali]

Own an enrolled Marriott deeded week and WKORV. Just returned from Nanea and received the offer to buy something for $25k, and enroll our WKORV week. Noted that was more than we paid for both our weeks, and to enroll the Marriott. Folks are forgetting the first rule of timeshare, "Buy Resale". If you're interested in the Marriott program, then take the $25k and buy DC points resale.

Interesting that they asked for $25K because the minimum to enroll 1 week is $10K.

Obviously $10K to just retro a single mandatory week is not necessarily something one needs to do, but IF (speculative) that $10K expense also allowed you to use that WKORV as part of the Marriott DC club once new system announced would you feel differently about it, knowing that doing it after the fact by buying Marriott DC points will probably cost a lot more?

 

[dioxide45]

Interesting that they asked for $25K because the minimum to enroll 1 week is $10K.

Obviously $10K to just retro a single mandatory week is not necessarily something one needs to do, but IF (speculative) that $10K expense also allowed you to use that WKORV as part of the Marriott DC club once new system announced would you feel differently about it, knowing that doing it after the fact by buying Marriott DC points will probably cost a lot more?

For some reason I recall the requirement to *requalify* a week being higher in Hawaii. Perhaps that was when they still mainly sold weeks. I don't know if they are still selling Nanea HomeOptions or just Westin Flex at Nanea now.

 

[Ron00]

$25k was for purchase, but I don't recall if it was Nanea HO or Westin Flex. "Requalify" was thrown in with purchase. When Marriott introduced DC points, we could enroll our resale week for a fixed fee (I think about $1500-$200k). We didn't do it then, and every owner update after that they would add in the complimentary enrollment with the purchase of points. We kept refusing, until they offered it in conjunction with an Encore package, which we accepted.