CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[dioxide45]

I guess we'll see, although now that I think about it it's somewhat consistent with what we were recently told at a discussion at Playa Andaluza. I was telling them I am not buying anything retail because there are a couple of more resale weeks we are considering adding first and they said they would have needed to be added before 2022 to be eligible for enrollment. I didn't really think too much of that comment at the time other than an excuse to get me to buy, but it makes more sense now... Don't think it will last, if it's even a rule at all.

It is possible that the legacy resale (pre 2022) would retain the retro offer Greg is referring to, but perhaps newer resales will require the higher point purchase requirements like Marriott sells today during their annual "promotion". Usually a minimum of 3,000 points for a single week.

 

[daviator]

I took a couple weeks off from keeping up with this forum and have tried to catch up.

So the latest thinking is that even owners of developer-purchased Vistana weeks will not get to play in the MVC DP world without a purchase of DPs?

I actually hope that's true, because I think that will dramatically limit Vistana owner participation in the DP program and keep the VSN network viable for many, many years into the future.

I will certainly not be giving them tens of thousands of dollars for DP points I don't want or need, just so that my existing ownerships can be traded into the DP network. I don't want more vacation time. I am not chomping at the bit to trade into any of the MVC properties, but if it were essentially free to do so, I might consider it once in a while. But it's sounding more and more like the program changes are (mostly) a complete non-event for me. A higher network fee and the elimination of some miscellaneous fees I rarely encountered. Color me unimpressed.

This is completely different from what Denise's contact told us early in these 100 pages. So I'll take it with a grain of salt and wait for something official to be announced.... some day....

 

[DanCali]

It is possible that the legacy resale (pre 2022) would retain the retro offer Greg is referring to, but perhaps newer resales will require the higher point purchase requirements like Marriott sells today during their annual "promotion". Usually a minimum of 3,000 points for a single week.

Could be - but as I suggested in a different thread, the precedent has been set with the Vistana retro offers and I think the days of people paying $30K-$45K to enroll a single week in the DC will be over sooner rather than later. Even $10K for a single week and $5 for each additional was not an easy sell when the product they make you buy has high MFs and close to zero resale value. But I strongly suspect that MVC saw the Vistana books and realized that lower prices for these offers can potentially generate much higher revenues/profits if the closing rates are significantly higher.

It's interesting to know if a VSN week requalified via MVC would also get "retrod" into VSN. i.e., if you own some cheap voluntary Orlando week purchased for $1 and enroll it as part of a developer purchase, will they also let you have Staroptions? It seems that is currently the case with Vistana - if you now retro via Vistana you get Staroptions usage in VSN and also a promise to enroll into the DC. Are people buying from Marriott with an promise of enrollment of VSN weeks into the DC being told anything about VSN usage either way? After 2500 posts is there any info on that?

 

[jabberwocky]

I was telling them I am not buying anything retail because there are a couple of more resale weeks we are considering adding first and they said they would have needed to be added before 2022 to be eligible for enrollment. I didn't really think too much of that comment at the time other than an excuse to get me to buy, but it makes more sense now...

I Think the first part of your last sentence is quite insightful. Anyone going to a presentation would be wise to read it and commit to memory.

 

[dioxide45]

Could be - but as I suggested in a different thread, the precedent has been set with the Vistana retro offers and I think the days of people paying $30K-$45K to enroll a single week in the DC will be over sooner rather than later. Even $10K for a single week and $5 for each additional was not an easy sell when the product they make you buy has high MFs and close to zero resale value. But I strongly suspect that MVC saw the Vistana books and realized that lower prices for these offers can potentially generate much higher revenues/profits if the closing rates are significantly higher.

But I think the difference here is in the future, they can sell it as an upgrade into Marriott DC for what are weeks that are unqualified and the higher retro would only apply to those external resales after 1/22. Rightnow Marriott hasn't relented on expensive retros to bring external Marriott resales into DC when they are otherwise unqualified. There is a precedent to allow pre June 2010 Marriott resales to enroll for free, but they haven't extended that to new resales. I don't think precedent matters. I highly suspect there will be some cut off date for external Vistana resales where they either won't be able to enroll/retro, or it will be cost prohibitive just like with Marriott resales.

It's interesting to know if a VSN week requalified via MVC would also get "retrod" into VSN. i.e., if you own some cheap voluntary Orlando week purchased for $1 and enroll it as part of a developer purchase, will they also let you have Staroptions? It seems that is currently the case with Vistana - if you now retro via Vistana you get Staroptions usage in VSN and also a promise to enroll into the DC. Are people buying from Marriott with an promise of enrollment of VSN weeks into the DC being told anything about VSN usage either way? After 2500 posts is there any info on that?

So far, only a few people have mentioned this type of offer from a Marriott sales office. We don't have a lot of details and one would certainly want it spelled out in the contract in a very clear and concise way. I suspect though it is mostly a way to sell DC points without any real promise backing it up. We have also seen Marriott sales tell people that one must buy DC points in order for their existing points to be able to access Vistana resorts...

 

[remowidget]

We have also seen Marriott sales tell people that one must buy DC points in order for their existing points to be able to access Vistana resorts...

NOTE: This is not about unenrolled resale.

I have seen two mechanisms suggested earlier in this thread.

The most common is that Vistana enrolled ownership will be able to be converted to Destination Points. Then the user will be able to book in the Destination points program. I was told essentially this in a sales meeting about a month ago.

The other is that if you have enrolled ownership in both systems, you will be able to directly book your Vistana ownership in MVC without a conversion required. ie, a hybrid account. This 100% makes sense to me. This is a great sales pitch. Vistana owners can make a minimum purchase for this benfit. Note: I'm not saying this is good value when compared to resale, but would result in a lot of sales.

 

[dioxide45]

The other is that if you have enrolled ownership in both systems, you will be able to directly book your Vistana ownership in MVC without a conversion required. ie, a hybrid account. This 100% makes sense to me. This is a great sales pitch. Vistana owners can make a minimum purchase for this benfit. Note: I'm not saying this is good value when compared to resale, but would result in a lot of sales.

I am not even sure what this means. What is meant by "without a conversion required"? There will always have to be some conversion either based on the point value of the week or conversion from Flex to DC points...

 

[Eric B]

I am not even sure what this means. What is meant by "without a conversion required"? There will always have to be some conversion either based on the point value of the week or conversion from Flex to DC points...

The part I picked up on was "This is a great sales pitch." I'm still waiting for the actual rules to come out and don't feel that great a need to enroll in Marriott if it costs anything substantial.

 

[remowidget]

I am not even sure what this means. What is meant by "without a conversion required"? There will always have to be some conversion either based on the point value of the week or conversion from Flex to DC points...

Without converting your complete individual ownership/week. ie, you could book a single MVC night with Vistana home or star options.

With the first option, I would have to transfer a full 148,100 options to Destination Points to book one night, leaving remaining destination points.

With the second option, all of my remaining ownership would reside in Vistana.

Still rumors....

 

[dioxide45]

Without converting your complete individual ownership/week. ie, you could book a single MVC night with Vistana home or star options.

With the first option, I would have to transfer a full 148,100 options to Destination Points to book one night, leaving remaining destination points.

With the second option, all of my remaining ownership would reside in Vistana.

Still rumors....

Possible, but I just don't see Vistana owners having the ability to convert at a StarOptions level. You will either convert your entire week or a full contract of Flex HomeOptions. It may be possible to elect a certain number of HomeOptions and retain the reset, but I don't see any way to convert just some StarOptions since the program is an exchange company and the exchange company really won't play in VSN.

 

[sharr7]

It sounds like they're just trying to "upsell" the fact you can book Vistana with MVC points. Like, Vistana-only have to convert their whole week/contract and then book in MVC, but if you own both you can book Vistana (with SO or DP) or MVC (with DP) without converting. Not really news. Perhaps there's a benefit to adding a few days to a Vistana vacation (especially unenrolled) with DP. But doesn't sounds like anything groundbreaking to me.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Unless you are already an MVC owner with points, or have Vistana voluntary resale and want more choices, I find it hard to justify any enrollment fee >$1000. We primarily use our unit and paid $12k resale. On what planet would one pay almost the same as the purchase amount just to gain access to a few more resorts when SOs and II exist for free?

DP Enrollment is like a voluntary resort so there are no rights conferred to future buyers so it doesn't add to the value of the unit like mandatory SOs. Besides, the people who buy premium properties like Oceanfront WKORV don't buy their units to trade. How many MOC OF owners actively trade their properties or are enrolled? I bet very few.

These blocking games on resale will come back to bite MVC if they don't actively ROFR every unit. The population of unenrolled resales will grow as owners age out and sell the premium units - reducing available DP points trades with enrolled premium units.

I appreciate those that have taken one for the team. This thread has helped me to evaluate this.

 

[vacationtime1]

Unless you are already an MVC owner with points, or have Vistana voluntary resale and want more choices, I find it hard to justify any enrollment fee >$1000. We primarily use our unit and paid $12k resale. On what planet would one pay almost the same as the purchase amount just to gain access to a few more resorts when SOs and II exist for free?

DP Enrollment is like a voluntary resort so there are no rights conferred to future buyers so it doesn't add to the value of the unit like mandatory SOs. Besides, the people who buy premium properties like Oceanfront WKORV don't buy their units to trade. How many MOC OF owners actively trade their properties or are enrolled? I bet very few.

These blocking games on resale will come back to bite MVC if they don't actively ROFR every unit. The population of unenrolled resales will grow as owners age out and sell the premium units - reducing available DP points trades with enrolled premium units.

I appreciate those that have taken one for the team. This thread has helped me to evaluate this.

My thinking is similar. I own OF at WKORV and use it every year. imho, it's the best of the best.

Marriott apparently agrees with my ranking; the ~8300 DP's that Marriott will apparently offer for electing this unit is one of the highest in its system.

So how does Marriott intend to incentivize me to enroll this unit and maybe elect points for it from time to time? NOT by making me buy Westin Flex units with no real resale value, high MF's, and no access to the OF suites we want.

We shall see how this plays out. But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will acquire this specific inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.

 

[DanCali]

We shall see how this plays out. But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will get this particular inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.

The beauty of their model is that they don't need to have that inventory in the DC exchange at all. They don't really care if owners at some specific resort elect points or not. If a resort never has exchange availability then - so what...? They can still sell points with the promise that you can potentially book at WKORV. That promise is meaningless, but it'll be 100% true.

That said, I do believe they will actually get this inventory in the DC - plenty of it. If it's not from resale buyers like you it will be from the retail buyers who are allowed to enroll. The number of points offered would entice many to elect points and use those on 2-3 weeks of trips elsewhere, especially given high Hawaii airfares. I suspect WKORV enrolled weeks will be much more likely to elect points than WSJ or WKV enrolled weeks, for example. In my case, I am literally 75% better off renting my WKV week out for $4800+ vs. electing 4050 points that I can rent from someone else for $2750. It's not the same outcome for WKORV because the rental value of the ~8300 points is about $5700 which is close to or might even exceed the rental value of the OF week.

Moreover, I would even argue that WKORV resale owners are also more likely to pay up to enroll - what I mean by that is that, since the enrollment fee is "per week" (as opposed to "per point") a resale buyer would be more likely to spend on a high enrolment fee (aka developer purchase) if the week/s they own converts to many points vs. fewer points. Would you be more likely to spend on an outrageous enrollment fee if the week you own converted to 2000 DC points or if it converted to 8000 DC points?

 

[dioxide45]

My thinking is similar. I own OF at WKORV and use it every year. imho, it's the best of the best.

Marriott apparently agrees with my ranking; the ~8300 DP's that Marriott will apparently offer for electing this unit is one of the highest in its system.

So how does Marriott intend to incentivize me to enroll this unit and maybe elect points for it from time to time? NOT by making me buy Westin Flex units with no real resale value, high MF's, and no access to the OF suites we want.

We shall see how this plays out. But unless Marriott steals unreserved OF inventory at the eight month mark, I don't see how it will acquire this specific inventory -- which is one of the locations it is touting as to-be-available for DC members post-merger.

There are certainly some OF owners that will want to elect DC points for certain stays. Maybe they want to try a Marriott somewhere. Then once DC has that inventory, they have the same reservation rights as the original owner.

 

[DanCali]

Then once DC has that inventory, they have the same reservation rights as the original owner.

If I take that literally, then does it mean that:

(I) Vistana Inventory will not be available in the DC at 13 months out. Only 12 or less?

(II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?

 

[daviator]

(II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?

Yes, I think they COULD do that, and we’ve wrung our hands and worried about that here for some time. Now Vistana could have done the same thing with Flex (assigned the most desirable weeks to the Flex pool) but they do not seem to have done so. So let’s hope that MVC is as benevolent.

 

[dioxide45]

If I take that literally, then does it mean that:

(I) Vistana Inventory will not be available in the DC at 13 months out. Only 12 or less?

(II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?

A for (I), it probably depends on what the underlying documents permit. I know some resorts allow for weeks owners to make reservations 18 months in advance (SBP). Some others may not say one way or another. So it could be possible still for a Vistana booking to be made at 13 months utilizing only that inventory that has been deposited to DC.

(II) This is possible and has been discussed ad nauseum when Marriott rolled out the program and if they could to that with Marriott weeks reservations. Anything is possible, but they want happy owens.

 

[Eric B]

A for (I), it probably depends on what the underlying documents permit. I know some resorts allow for weeks owners to make reservations 18 months in advance (SBP). Some others may not say one way or another. So it could be possible still for a Vistana booking to be made at 13 months utilizing only that inventory that has been deposited to DC.

For fixed week ownerships, 18 months is when the reservation is tentatively made by Vistana pending confirmation by the owners. That's how it works at WSJ VGV in any case, and I believe that was confirmed by others with fixed week ownerships at some of the other resorts. I believe that @rickandcindy23 had posted a while back about the confirmation timeframe for SBP being 2 years in advance based on terms in the deeds or the CC&Rs vice 18 months - I'm not sure if it's 2 years day-by-day or 2 calendar years (i.e., the ability to book in the fall or winter of 2025 once 2023 rolls around - that's how it works at Buganvilias, an independent TS in Puerto Vallarta, so I know it is a possibility).

(II) This is possible and has been discussed ad nauseum when Marriott rolled out the program and if they could to that with Marriott weeks reservations. Anything is possible, but they want happy owens.

I'm not sure what ability Marriott would have to deposit unsold inventory - that probably won't be clear until the revised VSN rules and rules for the new exchange function are released. The current VSN rules on the subject specify time limits for that kind of thing and requires estimating demand for VSN owners before bulk deposits in II, for example.

 

[kozykritter]

If I take that literally, then does it mean that:

(I) Vistana Inventory will not be available in the DC at 13 months out. Only 12 or less?

(II) The DC could, in theory, use its original owner reservation rights to use its available WKORV inventory to reserve all the 4th of July weeks in a nanosecond before an owner looking to reserve their home resort usage has a chance to even click the search button? I'm not saying it's what they would do, and it wouldn't help owners looking to book other summer weeks via the DC, but they could in theory book just more desirable weeks, especially when the Platinum season is 1-50?

I'm pretty sure I was told more than once in a sales presentation that Vistana inventory booked by MVC members will be available 12 months out. Nobody within the Vistana system has ever had the ability to jump the line and book more than 12 months out (except for fixed weeks), including elites, which makes it different from the MVC system. When they book in Vistana's system they will follow Vistana reservation rules the same way when we book in the MVC system we will follow their reservation rules. It really can't be any other way unless at some point they truly merge both systems into one.

 

[VacationForever]

I'm pretty sure I was told more than once in a sales presentation that Vistana inventory booked by MVC members will be available 12 months out. Nobody within the Vistana system has ever had the ability to jump the line and book more than 12 months out (except for fixed weeks), including elites, which makes it different from the MVC system. When they book in Vistana's system they will follow Vistana reservation rules the same way when we book in the MVC system we will follow their reservation rules. It really can't be any other way unless at some point they truly merge both systems into one.

It is very likely to be different inventory. As a Vistana owner, I can elect DC points up to 2 years before. Technically, those weeks will go straight into DC inventory, which can become available at 13 months out.

 

[DanCali]

It is very likely to be different inventory. As a Vistana owner, I can elect DC points up to 2 years before. Technically, those weeks will go straight into DC inventory, which can become available at 13 months out.

It can become available at 13 months out, but if the DC has to follow the same booking rules as the original depositing owner, then that inventory would not be accessible until 12 months out regardless of the DC reservation rules.

With MVC it is different because (multiple) weeks owners could always book at 13 months out and the DC can probably take advantage of that.

Then once DC has that inventory, they have the same reservation rights as the original owner.

Vistana weeks have the following definitions in their Bylaws and, now that it was brought up by dioxide45, it makes more sense to me that nothing will show up until 12 months out.

Home Resort Reservation Period means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period.

Home Resort Fixed Priority Period means the two (2)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending ten (10) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period, during which each Network Member owning a Fixed VOI has the exclusive right to reserve the Network Member's Fixed Vacation Period without competition from other Network Members, while each Network Member owning a Floating VOI competes exclusively with other Owners of VOIs at the Network Member's Home Resort to reserve Floating Vacation Periods within such Member’s Season and Unit type at the Member’s Home Resort, each subject to any limitations in the Resort Documents and the Network Rules. Not all Network Resorts will have a Home Resort Fixed Priority Period.

Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type at their Home Resort, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules.

 

[dioxide45]

It can become available at 13 months out, but if the DC has to follow the same booking rules as the original depositing owner, then that inventory would not be accessible until 12 months out regardless of the DC reservation rules.

With MVC it is different because (multiple) weeks owners could always book at 13 months out and the DC can probably take advantage of that.



Vistana weeks have the following definitions in their Bylaws and, now that it was brought up by dioxide45, it makes more sense to me that nothing will show up until 12 months out.

Home Resort Reservation Period means the four (4)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending eight (8) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period. The Home Resort Reservation Period is comprised of the Home Resort Fixed Priority Period (12-10 months) and the Home Resort Float Period.

Home Resort Fixed Priority Period means the two (2)-month period beginning twelve (12) months and ending ten (10) months prior to the Check-in Day of the Vacation Period, during which each Network Member owning a Fixed VOI has the exclusive right to reserve the Network Member's Fixed Vacation Period without competition from other Network Members, while each Network Member owning a Floating VOI competes exclusively with other Owners of VOIs at the Network Member's Home Resort to reserve Floating Vacation Periods within such Member’s Season and Unit type at the Member’s Home Resort, each subject to any limitations in the Resort Documents and the Network Rules. Not all Network Resorts will have a Home Resort Fixed Priority Period.

Home Resort Float Period means the period during which all Network Members owning VOIs at a particular Home Resort have the exclusive right to compete to reserve the use of Vacation Periods within their Season and Unit type at their Home Resort, subject to the Resort Documents and the Network Rules.

I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.

 

[kozykritter]

I suspect that Marriott may try to flaunt that rule and allow 13 month reservations and hope to go unchallenged.

I wish them luck with that with the eyes of TUG upon them!

 

[kozykritter]

It is very likely to be different inventory. As a Vistana owner, I can elect DC points up to 2 years before. Technically, those weeks will go straight into DC inventory, which can become available at 13 months out.

The source of the inventory does not affect the booking rules of the Vistana system. If they allowed people to book earlier than 12 months, class action lawsuits would follow immediately. Marriott knows this. They didn't get where they are today by being stupid. They are just as risk adverse as the next big company with shareholders.