Attended a presentation by Timeshare Exit Company Encore Law

[Tamaradarann]

@Tamaradarann Did they happen to show the video of Kevin O'Leary during the seminar you went to with Encore Law?

I wasn't paying that much attention to the video's they were showing so they could have. As I have stated before, I didn't buy the offer they were making but I wanted to find out if anyone ever used this company. What I got out of the presentation was that the position that LeslieDet has put forth that the Executor of an estate would have to deal with the timshare and pay any outstanding debt was correct. If that is true and we stopped paying the maintenance now by the time the estate was passed to our children we could have $200K or more in debt. That is serious money.

We will be doing what others have suggested like selling, deedbacks, offer for $0 sales to rid the estate of the timeshares over the next decade or so, however, if the timeshares are still on the estate on our passingthat is a concern. Others have suggested that we would be dead so why worry about it, but I believe most people want to leave a financial positive legacy to their children and this burden could hurt that.

 

[LeslieDet]

I still have to politely disagree with you that an executor’s fiduciary duty to the estate extends to (spending thousands of dollars) to open an ancillary probate in another state to… do what exactly? Play this out:

1. The executor pays all outstanding debts of the estate including any outstanding debts on the worthless timeshare;
2. The executor determines that there is nobody willing to inherit the worthless timeshare;
3. The resort does not have a deedback program;

So the executor now spends thousands of dollars to open ancillary probate in another state to still sit back and do nothing? There’s nobody the executor can deed that worthless resort to. The only thing they can do is formally abandon the timeshare. I know we’ve gone back and forth on this before, and I truly mean you no disrespect, but I just want to once again provide the alternative position to those that might be reading this thread that I know of no instance reported ever of an executor being successfully sued by a timeshare HOA for failing to open an ancillary probate for this purpose, and I am confident that timeshares are abandoned after death in this manner constantly, so if such a thing ever did happen, we would hear about it here. I don’t think you know of any such instances either based upon our prior discussions.

In my humble opinion, so long as the executor properly pays all creditors all debts that are due at the time the estate is closed, they are fine. The HOA is eventually going to foreclose on the abandoned asset, and the odds of some sort of deficiency judgment being entered against the executor are near nonexistent. And even if a deficiency judgment could be entered, what are the damages? We’re talking about a fully paid off timeshare.

Obviously reasonable people disagree about this, hence the back and forth between myself and LeslieDet, however I feel it necessary to at least post the contrary view.

It is not a yes or no answer, nor is it a one size fits all issue. There are statutory duties imposed on all executors. There are laws that apply. Executors/administrators are fiduciaries. We should be able to agree upon those points. Your scenario presumes all timeshares are "worthless". I disagree. Your scenario presumes that each and every estate is identical. They are not.

IMHO you are overgeneralizing based upon your assumption that each and every timeshare is worthless. Take "timeshare" out of the wording and let's say that there is a personal residence involved. That personal residence is located in a disaster zone and uninhabitable. The executor still needs to deal with it.

Because each and every situation is itself unique, a prudent executor would evaluate the entire picture. If that executor deems it appropriate to request approval to abandon an asset, then follow the legal steps to do so. That is what I've been saying all along. An executor cannot make that decision without getting approval to do so, otherwise that executor is failing to fulfill his or her fiduciary duty. Moreover, the executor has a duty to notify the timeshare HOA of the death. Many prior posts (not yours) make the claim that folks should basically never tell the HOA and just let it linger for years. I always call those out as violating the executor's fiduciary duty.

If the HOA says that it will accept a deed back, then the executor has a duty to be able to legally provide that deed. To do so requires an ancillary probate. (Unless of course ownership was held in a revocable living trust, then the successor trustee doesn't have to worry about probate, ancillary or otherwise.)

 

[LeslieDet]

One minor added note. In a jurisdiction that directly taxes timeshare owners, it is likely that the government agency will foreclose on the property due to unpaid taxes, and then put the ownership up for auction. It is my non-lawyer understanding that in this case the government seizure of the property will eliminate all liens attached to the property, including debts and outstanding HOA assessments or dues.

That would be CA and presumably the USVI (as property taxes are billed to the individual week owners in those locations). I do not know what the laws are in the USVI re tax sales.

 

[dioxide45]

1. The executor pays all outstanding debts of the estate including any outstanding debts on the worthless timeshare;
2. The executor determines that there is nobody willing to inherit the worthless timeshare;
3. The resort does not have a deedback program;

My question is, what if #3 is that the resort does have a deedback program but #1 and #2 are the same. Is it prudent to open ancillary probate to transfer a timeshare that doesn't have value just to transfer it back to the HOA. I suppose there are simpler and cheaper options for low value property.

 

[TUGBrian]

Thank you for the information about the timeshares that are on the TUG Free Timshare Board. As I mentioned right now we are looking at a Deed Back of some of our timeshares to HGVC. Pending the success of that we will be considering alternatives.

doing one doesnt exclude you from doing the other?

why would you care if hilton takes it back, or another owner takes it from you? either way you arent an owner anymore.

not sure given the amount of time and effort put into disposing of these sofar, you wouldnt exploit all your options especially as they dont cost you anything.

heck id imagine it would have taken less time to draft up free giveaway posts than it did to reply to half the posts on this thread.

 

[LeslieDet]

My question is, what if #3 is that the resort does have a deedback program but #1 and #2 are the same. Is it prudent to open ancillary probate to transfer a timeshare that doesn't have value just to transfer it back to the HOA. I suppose there are simpler and cheaper options for low value property.

This is where Fido and I may differ. IMHO, the executor is charged with fulfilling his or her fiduciary duties to complete the administration of the estate. If part of that administration includes transferring ownership of the timeshares back to the HOA via a deed back program, then the executor must complete the legal steps to do so. It seems that others take the approach that because completing that process takes money from the estate, that the executor should just sneak away and not do the legal steps needed and then ultimately it will be transferred at some point down the road via a foreclosure. It is that tactic I disagree with and believe that would be a violation of the executor's obligations to the estate.

 

[Tamaradarann]

doing one doesnt exclude you from doing the other?

why would you care if hilton takes it back, or another owner takes it from you? either way you arent an owner anymore.

not sure given the amount of time and effort put into disposing of these sofar, you wouldnt exploit all your options especially as they dont cost you anything.

heck id imagine it would have taken less time to draft up free giveaway posts than it did to reply to half the posts on this thread.

We have completed and submitted the forms for the deedback and are awaiting for the HOA to complete the process. We would not want to start another process until that is completed.

While you are correct that the draft for a free giveaway is simple, completing the entire process of the giveaway is not as simple as saying yes. It certrainly an option to consider in the future.

 

[Tamaradarann]

This is where Fido and I may differ. IMHO, the executor is charged with fulfilling his or her fiduciary duties to complete the administration of the estate. If part of that administration includes transferring ownership of the timeshares back to the HOA via a deed back program, then the executor must complete the legal steps to do so. It seems that others take the approach that because completing that process takes money from the estate, that the executor should just sneak away and not do the legal steps needed and then ultimately it will be transferred at some point down the road via a foreclosure. It is that tactic I disagree with and believe that would be a violation of the executor's obligations to the estate.

I totally agree with what you are saying here. Perhaps you need to be talking to the HOAs of all the timeshares in the world. If you look at the big picture of this timeshare ownership when owners no longer want and need the timeshares, the HOAs would be better off taking back the timeshare right away and selling or renting the timeshare unit than waiting for a foreclosure which may take years and having the other owners make up the maintenance that is not being paid by the delinquent owner.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

This is where Fido and I may differ. IMHO, the executor is charged with fulfilling his or her fiduciary duties to complete the administration of the estate. If part of that administration includes transferring ownership of the timeshares back to the HOA via a deed back program, then the executor must complete the legal steps to do so. It seems that others take the approach that because completing that process takes money from the estate, that the executor should just sneak away and not do the legal steps needed and then ultimately it will be transferred at some point down the road via a foreclosure. It is that tactic I disagree with and believe that would be a violation of the executor's obligations to the estate.

Yeah, I probably differ here. The executor’s duty to the estate is to pay off all legitimate debts of the estate, and preserve the assets to the maximum extent possible in order to allow the legatees to inherit the maximum possible. While I do agree that every individual circumstance may vary, I don’t think I would generallly recommend spending thousands of dollars of estate capital solely to deed back a fully paid off timeshare that has zero resale value to the HOA.

On the other hand, I do agree with LeslieDet that if the timeshare has value, and can be sold, then opening up the ancillary probate makes sense, provided the sale value exceeds the costs of the ancillary probate. If someone dies owning a Disney Vacation Club contract, then yes, their executor is going to need to open up an ancillary probate in Florida.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Yeah, I probably differ here. The executor’s duty to the estate is to pay off all legitimate debts of the estate, and preserve the assets to the maximum extent possible in order to allow the legatees to inherit the maximum possible. While I do agree that every individual circumstance may vary, I don’t think I would generallly recommend spending thousands of dollars of estate capital solely to deed back a fully paid off timeshare that has zero resale value to the HOA.

On the other hand, I do agree with LeslieDet that if the timeshare has value, and can be sold, then opening up the ancillary probate makes sense, provided the sale value exceeds the costs of the ancillary probate. If someone dies owning a Disney Vacation Club contract, then yes, their executor is going to need to open up an ancillary probate in Florida.

You make some interesting points here. I want to focus on the overall issue that I believe most people are having with timeshares that they no longer want or need. Since timeshares are so difficult to sell what do owners do to get out of having to pay the mainteance on the contract that the timeshare ownership has gotten them into? Deeding back is one way if the HOA takes the timeshare back. I have mentioned to LeslieDet that talking to the HOA's about it being better for them to take back timeshares and sell or rent them immediately rather than waiting for a foreclosure which may take many years. However, many HOA's don't take them back.

Therefore:

In your first paragraph you mention that you wouldn't recommend that an executor spend thousands of dollars to deed back a fully paid off timeshare that has zero value to the HOA. Since zero market value is the case for many timeshares if the HOA won't take back the timeshare would the executor be OK to just stop paying the maintenance and let it go to an eventual foreclosure? Futhermore, since many people in the later years of life will stop vacationing if the HOA won't take back the timeshare would it be OK for the owners to stop paying their mainteance and let it go to an eventual foreclosure?

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

In your first paragraph you mention that you wouldn't recommend that an executor spend thousands of dollars to deed back a fully paid off timeshare that has zero value to the HOA. Since zero market value is the case for many timeshares if the HOA won't take back the timeshare would the executor be OK to just stop paying the maintenance and let it go to an eventual foreclosure? Futhermore, since many people in the later years of life will stop vacationing if the HOA won't take back the timeshare would it be OK for the owners to stop paying their mainteance and let it go to an eventual foreclosure?

The executor of an estate needs to pay any legitimate debts. So, no, I don't think the executor can just ignore maintenance fees that are owed up until the time the estate is closed and will need to pay those off. This is why it is a good idea for anyone to try to get rid of their timeshares before they die (or use a trust as LeslieDet mentioned). However, the estate is not on the hook for prospective maintenance fees that occur after the estate is closed and the timeshare is abandoned.

And yes, if, during an owner's life they cannot get rid of a worthless timeshare by either selling it, giving it away, or deeding it back to the HOA, then I think the correct strategy is absolutely to stop paying those fees and force the HOA to foreclose. In my opinion if a timeshare HOA is so worthless that the HOA can't take back a free deed and resell it / give it away, then it deserves to fail.

 

[LeslieDet]

Yeah, I probably differ here. The executor’s duty to the estate is to pay off all legitimate debts of the estate, and preserve the assets to the maximum extent possible in order to allow the legatees to inherit the maximum possible. While I do agree that every individual circumstance may vary, I don’t think I would generallly recommend spending thousands of dollars of estate capital solely to deed back a fully paid off timeshare that has zero resale value to the HOA.

On the other hand, I do agree with LeslieDet that if the timeshare has value, and can be sold, then opening up the ancillary probate makes sense, provided the sale value exceeds the costs of the ancillary probate. If someone dies owning a Disney Vacation Club contract, then yes, their executor is going to need to open up an ancillary probate in Florida.

FWIW - under the CA Probate Code, only personal property can be legally abandoned by an executor. The abandonment is allowed when the cost to deal with that personal property exceeds value. There is not any similar code section for real property ownership interests. I have no knowledge if other states allow the abandonment of real property by an executor or administrator.

Here is the code I'm referring to:
"California Probate Code Section 9780 - Authority to dispose of abandoned tangible personal property --
Unless the property is specifically devised, subject to the requirements of this chapter, the personal representative may dispose of or abandon tangible personal property where the cost of collecting, maintaining, and safeguarding the property would exceed its fair market value."

 

[Tamaradarann]

The executor of an estate needs to pay any legitimate debts. So, no, I don't think the executor can just ignore maintenance fees that are owed up until the time the estate is closed and will need to pay those off. This is why it is a good idea for anyone to try to get rid of their timeshares before they die (or use a trust as LeslieDet mentioned). However, the estate is not on the hook for prospective maintenance fees that occur after the estate is closed and the timeshare is abandoned.

And yes, if, during an owner's life they cannot get rid of a worthless timeshare by either selling it, giving it away, or deeding it back to the HOA, then I think the correct strategy is absolutely to stop paying those fees and force the HOA to foreclose. In my opinion if a timeshare HOA is so worthless that the HOA can't take back a free deed and resell it / give it away, then it deserves to fail.

The only benefit of placing the timeshares in a trust, which we have done, is that it place the timeshares in a position for the executor to deal with the timeshares without probate. However, if the benefactors of the estate don't want the timeshares the past and future maintenance is still the responsibity of the exeutor and the estate.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

and future maintenance is still the responsibity of the exeutor and the estate.

Future maintenance definitely is not.

 

[UtahStockMom]

Tamaradarann, do you owe money on the timeshares besides the annual maintenance fees? Those need to be paid off to get rid of them. If you DON'T owe anything on them, sell them in the Marketplace on here!

 

[Irene Parker]

I just heard from someone recently who lost over $12,000 to Encore Law, Inc in TN. She has a Marriott timeshare with no outstanding loan. Two attorneys have advised to file a bar complaint in TN for misrepresenting themselves as a law firm, despite "we are not a law firm" on their about page. What's worse, there is a legitimate law firm, Encore Law, LLP that is on Wilshire Blvd in CA that looks to have nothing to do with timeshare. Encore Law, Inc is in Knoxville, according to their BBB file. A year later she was passed off to Sterling Client Services who had the timeshare owner write her own letter that the Sterling person sent to the timeshare resort. The response from Marriott was to look at rental/resale but warned (too late) about paying upfront money. This particular Marriott has no resale value because maintenance fees went through the roof.

 

[Irene Parker]

I am NOT planing on using this company, I said that earlier. They are charging 1/2 of the mainteance that you would have to pay for the next 10 years to legally get your name off the deed.

You as well as others on this thread have suggested that I RECOMMEDED THIS COMPANY. STOP STOP STOP I don't recommend them I was just trying to find out if others have had any experience which seems to be no one.

Please read my response to Fido Chuckwagon for a fully picture of my thoughts on this issue.

see my post I just spoke with someone who paid them over $12,000 for nothing.

 

[dioxide45]

I just heard from someone recently who lost over $12,000 to Encore Law, Inc in TN. She has a Marriott timeshare with no outstanding loan. Two attorneys have advised to file a bar complaint in TN for misrepresenting themselves as a law firm, despite "we are not a law firm" on their about page. What's worse, there is a legitimate law firm, Encore Law, LLP that is on Wilshire Blvd in CA that looks to have nothing to do with timeshare. Encore Law, Inc is in Knoxville, according to their BBB file. A year later she was passed off to Sterling Client Services who had the timeshare owner write her own letter that the Sterling person sent to the timeshare resort. The response from Marriott was to look at rental/resale but warned (too late) about paying upfront money. This particular Marriott has no resale value because maintenance fees went through the roof.

Hello Irene, Marriott wasn't willing to accept the timeshare in a deed back?

 

[LeslieDet]

see my post I just spoke with someone who paid them over $12,000 for nothing.

Of course that company is a scammer. No one can simply "get you out of your timeshare". That isn't how it works when you own real property. Anyone who "gets" out of their timeshare either sells it or gives it away. The transfer of ownership requires a properly prepared and executed deed recorded in the correct jurisdiction. It is so sad your acquaintance lost $12k. BTW - I'd suggest that person contact their state AG or the DA's office, because bar complaints only work as against real lawyers, not fake ones.

 

[TUGBrian]

tried to attend one in my area just yesterday, they were offering $100 visa gift card and $100 gas card plus dinner to attend!

shows you just how many folks actually fall for these schemes. Sadly I did not want to be untruthful when signing up and answered all their questions to obtain a reservation including that I was married and they required both husband and wife to attend. While I was willing to waste an afternoon (and record it) my wife wanted no part of how she expected that event to end up with me present. I even mentioned that my wife was not an owner of the timeshare but they were adamant about spouses attending.

ohwell, ill keep trying as long as they keep sending me postcard invitations!

 

[dioxide45]

I'd suggest that person contact their state AG of the DA's office, because bar complaints only work as against real lawyers, not fake ones.

I looked this up and it seems to vary by state. In Tennessee complaints should go to the State AG. In Florida the complaint form is sent to the Bar. Perhaps the Bar later turns it over to the AG or DAs office after the committee's investigation.

 

[TUGBrian]

never hurts to send to both! hopefully someone will see it (or forward it to the correct department).

 

[Tamaradarann]

Hello Irene, Marriott wasn't willing to accept the timeshare in a deed back?

HGVC does do DeedBacks. We have done 3 DeedBacks last month. Why is HGVC doing Deedbacks?

If it is true that you can't get out of timeshares unless you sell or give them away and no one wants them, since they don't want to pay the maintenance, then how do you get rid of them? You STOP PAYING YOUR MAINTENANCE.

I believe that is why HGVC is doing Deedbacks. They realize that it is more beneficial for their resorts, which have their name on it, and their timeshare owners to do Deedbacks instead of having owners default on the maintenance. If timeshare owners stop paying their maintenance the other owners of that resort will have their maintenance go up to make up for those owners that are not paying their maintenance. The resort can foreclose, but foreclosure costs money as well as takes along time which could be years! Instead HGVC can Deedback the timeshare for no cost, sell that timeshare with their large timeshare sales operation for money, and get a maintenance paying owner in a shorter period of time.

Perhaps Marriott will start to do that also.

 

[dioxide45]

Perhaps Marriott will start to do that also

Marriott does have a deed back program, that is why I asked the question.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Marriott does have a deed back program, that is why I asked the question.

That is great that they do. In view of that what do you think of my belief about why HGVC is doing Deedback as well as Marriott. I also posted something about Wydham perhaps doing Deedbacks but wanting to get paid to do it thru RCI Points.