Attended a presentation by Timeshare Exit Company Encore Law

[VaTh]

I'd say that during the 2008-2012 Great Recession and financial crisis that he was leveraging the decline in value to take advantage of the various federal loan modification programs that were out there and pressuring his lender to compromise his loan balance. I seriously doubt he would ever allow his property to go into a foreclosure. His game was basically one of chicken with his lender. And, he would still have taken a credit hit because his loan payments were late. If he moved from the home it may have worked to reduce his debt. If his loan was a purchase money debt, then yes, his lender assumed the risk that the collateral would decline in value and there would not be any deficiency judgment for a judicial foreclosure. But it seems like he was just trying to impress you. The last thing a big firm partner would want is a NOD published.

Are you a lawyer? It looks like you know a lot!! My worry is that if I pay off my loan and for any reason I stop paying my maintenance fee and I go in to a foreclosure, y know my credit is going to take a hit, but can they legally take any from me like my house? I don’t know anything about laws, I’m from Virginia and i this Virginia foreclosure are no judicial foreclosure and stay in your credit like 2 to 7 years, can it be longer than that!? I’m not saying that I’m going to stop paying, I feel like they scam me when I purchase my TH I didn’t know what I was getting my self and my family in to it but I’m going to try to get the best out of this situation. But I’m worried that in the future I’m not able to pay for any reason what would happen. Thank you in advance

 

[TUGBrian]

a timeshare company is not going to try to take your home for defaulting on your maintenance fees.

 

[LeslieDet]

Are you a lawyer? It looks like you know a lot!! My worry is that if I pay off my loan and for any reason I stop paying my maintenance fee and I go in to a foreclosure, y know my credit is going to take a hit, but can they legally take any from me like my house? I don’t know anything about laws, I’m from Virginia and i this Virginia foreclosure are no judicial foreclosure and stay in your credit like 2 to 7 years, can it be longer than that!? I’m not saying that I’m going to stop paying, I feel like they scam me when I purchase my TH I didn’t know what I was getting my self and my family in to it but I’m going to try to get the best out of this situation. But I’m worried that in the future I’m not able to pay for any reason what would happen. Thank you in advance

I'd suggest you try and learn how to use your ownership. I am not familiar with your facts, but it sounds like you just bought and immediately panicked. Timeshares are not all evil. Some of us actually enjoy using our ownership. I am one of those owners. I'd much rather own my timeshares than a vacation home in a foreign destination. I've been there, done that, and it is stressful, expensive and risky.

You are asking questions that have so many variables involved that there really isn't an answer. Just understand that the laws that apply to your ownership are the laws of the state where your timeshare is located. If that is in Virginia, then that state's laws will apply. If in Florida, then Florida laws apply. I don't understand folks who immediately go to the "well, I'll just stop paying my MFs". The MFs are what the HOA needs to pay its bills. You stop paying them, then your fellow owners are harmed. All I can say is that the law of the state where a judgment is entered against you provides the remedies available to creditors to enforce those debts. The law of the state where you own deeded real property will have the laws that apply to what can happen to those who do not pay their legitimate debts. Who knows how aggressively any judgment creditor will enforce the debt? I cannot predict the future. Since you are so worried about everything, pay off your purchase loan and sell or give away your ownership. Take it as a lesson learned.

 

[Tamaradarann]

Because you have placed your ownership into your revocable living trust, if you do not dispose of via sale or gift prior to your passing, your successor trustee will have the ability to do so without wasting the money on probating your estate. That is a good thing. It seems you are really afraid of the future costs. That being said, have you placed any of your various ownerships up for sale currently? Have you looked on Redweek to see what resales for where you own are selling for? Talk to a broker if you are so worried. What do your kids want? Do they like the timeshares? If so, then don't worry about the future costs. Your successor trustee will deal with the issues when the time comes.

We have tried to sell some of our timeshares with a broker recently to no avail. We even cut our price to $0 and offered to pay the commision and closing costs. The kids don't want to assume the maintenance costs of the timeshares. As you know the market for timeshares on the secondary market is bad even though the timeshare selling companies are still selling lots of them at much higher prices. There are just so many timeshares out there on the secondary market.

I agree with all you are saying including the thought that if you stop paying your mainteannce you are hurting other owners by raising their maintenance cost since they have to make up what you don't pay.

However, you may recall that we differ on the issue of stop paying your maintenance since you see a difference between a Condo owner stopping to pay their maintenance and a timeshare owner stopping to pay their maintenance. I am a Condo owner as well as a Timeshare owner and in the big picture for both cases the owners that are paying their maintenace must make up for the revenue shortfall of the owners that are not paying their maintenance. You mentioned that the Condo HOA can stop providing some services. Well that is not usually a very popular option since it lowers the desirability of living there as well as lowering the selling attractiveness. The timeshare HOA could also stop providing some services but that would also be undesirable for the owners and guests as well.

The effects of delinquency of Condos is so much worse that that of timeshares for the following reasons: Timeshares owners, like myself, are just wishing that the HOA or Development Company will take back their week The HOA or Development Company can then sell or rent the week. Condo Assoicaitons wish that the delinquent owners would just give up their week so that the HOA can sell or rent the week. Instead in many cases since they know that forelosure takes so long delinquent owners rent their apartments and pocket the money instead of paying their maintenance. Futhermore, if a timeshare owner doens't pay their maintenance that is 1 week out of 52 in that unit are not paying. If a Condo owner doesn't pay their maintenance that is 52 weeks our of 52 weeks in that the unit are not paying.

 

[TUGBrian]

We have tried to sell some of our timeshares with a broker recently to no avail. We even cut our price to $0 and offered to pay the commision and closing costs. The kids don't want to assume the maintenance costs of the timeshares. As you know the market for timeshares on the secondary market is bad even though the timeshare selling companies are still selling lots of them at much higher prices. There are just so many timeshares out there on the secondary market.

do not see any listings ever posted from this account to try to give them away?

 

[LeslieDet]

However, you may recall that we differ on the issue of stop paying your maintenance since you see a difference between a Condo owner stopping to pay their maintenance and a timeshare owner stopping to pay their maintenance.

We don't differ on the issue. The difference is when it is a timeshare the HOA accrues the bad debt and then spreads that out among the MFs for the following year, so services can be kept at the level that all timeshare owners expect for their vacation destination. When it is a residential complex and an owner doesn't pay their HOA dues, it impacts the HOA's ability to pay for whatever it is the HOA pays for, and then services or maintenance starts to slide. I live in a complex with 12 homes; one owner is now almost a year behind. That shortfall means we are not contributing to our reserves as planned and we are not doing any new landscaping projects. We still pay our existing utility, insurance, landscape maintenance, and management fee bills, because we don't have a choice. We also pay our accountant to do our tax returns. But no new plants or previously scheduled replacements will be happening. As a board member, I'm not willing to take that bad debt and spread it out among the remaining 11 home owners. So, our only option is to reduce our expenses. That simply doesn't happen in the timeshare world because everyone who is paying their MFs would be (and should be) upset if the resort fell into a state of disrepair because services were cut.

 

[Tamaradarann]

do not see any listings ever posted from this account to try to give them away?

We did it with a broker. Will look into doing it pending the resultf of the HGVC give back.

 

[Tamaradarann]

We don't differ on the issue. The difference is when it is a timeshare the HOA accrues the bad debt and then spreads that out among the MFs for the following year, so services can be kept at the level that all timeshare owners expect for their vacation destination. When it is a residential complex and an owner doesn't pay their HOA dues, it impacts the HOA's ability to pay for whatever it is the HOA pays for, and then services or maintenance starts to slide. I live in a complex with 12 homes; one owner is now almost a year behind. That shortfall means we are not contributing to our reserves as planned and we are not doing any new landscaping projects. We still pay our existing utility, insurance, landscape maintenance, and management fee bills, because we don't have a choice. We also pay our accountant to do our tax returns. But no new plants or previously scheduled replacements will be happening. As a board member, I'm not willing to take that bad debt and spread it out among the remaining 11 home owners. So, our only option is to reduce our expenses. That simply doesn't happen in the timeshare world because everyone who is paying their MFs would be (and should be) upset if the resort fell into a state of disrepair because services were cut.

My experience in our Condo differs from yours. My husband is on the board of our much larger Condo and the board has not cut services do to owners not paying their maintenance. Therefore, the when the budget is prepared for the following year the shortfall is reflected in the amount of maintenance and reserve contributions that owners will pay. Therefore, it is the same as a Timeshare.

 

[LeslieDet]

My experience in our Condo differs from yours. My husband is on the board of our much larger Condo and the board has not cut services do to owners not paying their maintenance. Therefore, the when the budget is prepared for the following year the shortfall is reflected in the amount of maintenance and reserve contributions that owners will pay. Therefore, it is the same as a Timeshare.

That is up to a board to decide. My complex only has 12 homes, so that is much more difficult to simply charge more. But the concepts are all the same. We don't disagree over how it works.

 

[davidvel]

That is up to a board to decide. My complex only has 12 homes, so that is much more difficult to simply charge more. But the concepts are all the same. We don't disagree over how it works.

This situation is far worse than a timeshare. Losing 1/12 of your budget when a single owner stops is a much bigger problem than losing 1/12,000th.

 

[GrayFal]

We did it with a broker. Will look into doing it pending the resultf of the HGVC give back.

Here are recent listing on the TUG Free Timeshare Board

SOLD - Free HGVC Platinum 7680 points Paradise, Las Vegas

We have this timeshare for over 20 years. It is time to let it go. We enjoy all the years of vacation. 2024 usage available. - you will need to reimburse the maintenance fees or you can have 2025 usage. Buyer pay all transfer fees and closing cost - you can choose whatever closing company.

tugbbs.com

HGVC 5440 points every year timeshare

Giving away Hilton Grand Vacations timeshare that gives 5440 points every year. The resort it is tied to is Ocean tower in Big Island, Hawaii. The maintenance fees is roughly ~$1100. The club dues roughly ~$200, so the total fees per year is roughly $1300. The points are good enough to get a...

tugbbs.com

Free: HGVC Flamingo 2/2

Free: 2-bedroom unit at the Flamingo (a Hilton timeshare) silver season; MF $1,464.07 paid for 2024. Reservations made for country music award weekend (Friday May 3 to Tuesday, May 7, 2024) which can be cancelled (points protection purchased). Closing costs will be paid for by seller. Send...

tugbbs.com

Free SeaWorld Orlando, HGVC, Odd Year Contract Free Closing!

Resort Name: SeaWorld Orlando, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club Resort Location: Orlando, Florida Fixed Week / Floating Week / Number of Points: Floating, 5600 Points. frequency (every year? every other year?) Every Other Year (Odd Year) unit size: 2 BEDS Annual Maintenance fees: For Odd Year...

tugbbs.com

HGVC at Seaworld Orlando. 2 Bedroom Gold Odd Years 8,000 Points

I have a week at Seaworld. This is available with the full 8,000 points for 2023 or you can start with points in 2025. The breakdown of the transfer fee's are as follows. LT Titles Doc prep/closing $225.00 Filing fee $30.00 postage charge fee $15.00 HGVC Right of first refusal fee. $89.00...

tugbbs.com

Free HGVC Elara/Flamingo

Property Room Type Season Points MF Elara Studio Gold 2560 733.41 Elara Even 1 Bedroom Gold 5440 EOY Even 979.37 Elara Studio Platinum 3520 733.41 Elara Studio New Year 3520 733.41 Flamingo 1 Bedroom Gold 5440 1117.1 Flamingo 1 Bedroom Gold 5440 1117.1 Giving the above property...

tugbbs.com

Free Gold HGVC Parc Soleil - You Pay Transfer & Closing Fees

3 Hilton Grand Vacation Club Timeshares available for free, all you pay is closing & transfer fees (your choice of recognised transfer agent) All are fully paid off, and all maintenance fees up to date. First year of available use is 2024 for all. 1) Kohala Suites, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club...

tugbbs.com

 

[Tamaradarann]

Here are recent listing on the TUG Free Timeshare Board

SOLD - Free HGVC Platinum 7680 points Paradise, Las Vegas

We have this timeshare for over 20 years. It is time to let it go. We enjoy all the years of vacation. 2024 usage available. - you will need to reimburse the maintenance fees or you can have 2025 usage. Buyer pay all transfer fees and closing cost - you can choose whatever closing company.

tugbbs.com

HGVC 5440 points every year timeshare

Giving away Hilton Grand Vacations timeshare that gives 5440 points every year. The resort it is tied to is Ocean tower in Big Island, Hawaii. The maintenance fees is roughly ~$1100. The club dues roughly ~$200, so the total fees per year is roughly $1300. The points are good enough to get a...

tugbbs.com

Free: HGVC Flamingo 2/2

Free: 2-bedroom unit at the Flamingo (a Hilton timeshare) silver season; MF $1,464.07 paid for 2024. Reservations made for country music award weekend (Friday May 3 to Tuesday, May 7, 2024) which can be cancelled (points protection purchased). Closing costs will be paid for by seller. Send...

tugbbs.com

Free SeaWorld Orlando, HGVC, Odd Year Contract Free Closing!

Resort Name: SeaWorld Orlando, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club Resort Location: Orlando, Florida Fixed Week / Floating Week / Number of Points: Floating, 5600 Points. frequency (every year? every other year?) Every Other Year (Odd Year) unit size: 2 BEDS Annual Maintenance fees: For Odd Year...

tugbbs.com

HGVC at Seaworld Orlando. 2 Bedroom Gold Odd Years 8,000 Points

I have a week at Seaworld. This is available with the full 8,000 points for 2023 or you can start with points in 2025. The breakdown of the transfer fee's are as follows. LT Titles Doc prep/closing $225.00 Filing fee $30.00 postage charge fee $15.00 HGVC Right of first refusal fee. $89.00...

tugbbs.com

Free HGVC Elara/Flamingo

Property Room Type Season Points MF Elara Studio Gold 2560 733.41 Elara Even 1 Bedroom Gold 5440 EOY Even 979.37 Elara Studio Platinum 3520 733.41 Elara Studio New Year 3520 733.41 Flamingo 1 Bedroom Gold 5440 1117.1 Flamingo 1 Bedroom Gold 5440 1117.1 Giving the above property...

tugbbs.com

Free Gold HGVC Parc Soleil - You Pay Transfer & Closing Fees

3 Hilton Grand Vacation Club Timeshares available for free, all you pay is closing & transfer fees (your choice of recognised transfer agent) All are fully paid off, and all maintenance fees up to date. First year of available use is 2024 for all. 1) Kohala Suites, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club...

tugbbs.com

Thank you for the information about the timeshares that are on the TUG Free Timshare Board. As I mentioned right now we are looking at a Deed Back of some of our timeshares to HGVC. Pending the success of that we will be considering alternatives.

 

[chapjim]

Since we live in Honolulu now we are vacationing much less. We have much less need for all these timeshares that cost us about $9000 a year in maintenance so we are looking to reduce our cost. Some of the Hiltons are over $1400 maintenance for a 1 BR.

So, book Home Weeks and rent them.

If you can negotiate sales or deedbacks, great! If not, you have two choices -- keep paying or stop paying. Ointment or suppositories.

 

[Tamaradarann]

So, book Home Weeks and rent them.

If you can negotiate sales or deedbacks, great! If not, you have two choices -- keep paying or stop paying. Ointment or suppositories.

You state the situation very simply and well. We are trying Deedbacking right now since it is simple to do. Will try a $0 sale if that doesn't work for some of our timeshares. We will try NOT to go to the not paying solution "suppository".

As far as Deedbacks I find it kind of immoral or crimminal, though there is no law preventing it, for timeshare development companies to continue to sell their timeshares for tens of thousands of dollars but not taking back a timeshare they sold for free.

 

[chapjim]

You state the situation very simply and well. We are trying Deedbacking right now since it is simple to do. Will try a $0 sale if that doesn't work for some of our timeshares. We will try NOT to go to the not paying solution "suppository".

As far as Deedbacks I find it kind of immoral or crimminal, though there is no law preventing it, for timeshare development companies to continue to sell their timeshares for tens of thousands of dollars but not taking back a timeshare they sold for free.

Once your timeshare has been transferred to the developer, you have no continuing interest in that timeshare. Be happy you are done with it instead of obsessing about what the developer will do with it.

 

[LeslieDet]

This situation is far worse than a timeshare. Losing 1/12 of your budget when a single owner stops is a much bigger problem than losing 1/12,000th.

Of course the situation is far worse when it is one home among 12 vs a timeshare; but the concept is still the same as I had been discussing with Tamaradarann as it pertains to her condo.

 

[cindyhbt]

Most of us own timeshares and all of us are going to die someday; there is no reason to be in panic mode. Your timeshares have value and your heirs will have no difficulty disposing of them.

But if you really, really want to help your heirs in this process, put your timeshares into a revocable trust. That way your heirs will not need to open ancillary probates in Nevada and Florida in order to sign deeds after you pass.

EXCUSE ME!
everything I read said timeshares should not be listed in WILLS, or TRUSTS. The children can rescind their obligation to take them but only if they are not listed as part of their inheritance.

 

[LeslieDet]

EXCUSE ME!
everything I read said timeshares should not be listed in WILLS, or TRUSTS. The children can rescind their obligation to take them but only if they are not listed as part of their inheritance.

Wherever you read that it was written by someone who doesn't understand how probate law works or how real property must be dealt with when the owner dies. And there is no such thing as "rescinding" an "obligation". One can rescind a contract if the law allows specifically for that contract to be rescinded, and the rescission must happen within the time frame set forth in the law of the state where the contract was entered into. Rescission rights have absolutely nothing to do with probate.

When someone owns real property, whether it is a home they reside in or an shared interest in a vacation property, and that person dies, then the deceased's estate must be probated (yes, there are dollar thresholds, and rules for how certain types of assets can be transferred, but that is much too much to discuss here). Real estate can only be probated in the jurisdiction where it is located. It is the executor's obligation to comply with the applicable laws and to address the disposition of all assets owned by the deceased at time of death, along with other tasks like a final tax return.

When real property is owned by a revocable living trust, and the grantor of that trust dies, there is no probate. That is the entire purpose of trusts -- to avoid probate. That means that the successor trustee steps in and is able to legally deal with the assets owned by the trust without court intervention. It is a much easier and less costly process than probate.

When someone dies with or without a will, any heir can disclaim a bequest or inheritance. That is an act done by the heir. That doesn't relieve the executor from dealing with the disposal or other transfer of that asset. Real property doesn't just evaporate into thin air when the owner dies. And, if someone's will simply says "everything I own goes to XX" - if the deceased owned a car, a house and a dozen timeshares, then XX has inherited those assets, and can disclaim the inheritance. The executor still deals with those assets in order to close the estate. It is irrelevant that the will did not specifically list the 12 timeshares. It is up to the executor to take an inventory of everything owned by the deceased in order to properly administer the estate. The executor is a fiduciary and owes a fiduciary duty to the estate and heirs of the estate to properly execute the process of estate administration and ultimately report back to the court that all assets have been dealt with. (And yes, there are ways to dispose of assets or be relieved from the requirement of disposing of that asset, but the complexities are many.)

 

[Tamaradarann]

Once your timeshare has been transferred to the developer, you have no continuing interest in that timeshare. Be happy you are done with it instead of obsessing about what the developer will do with it.

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I am happy to deedback some of my timeshares and I don't really care what they do with them after they take them back.

With that said, what I am "obsessing about" is companies that DON'T take the timeshares that they sold you back for $0 but are still selling timeshares in their inventory at high prices.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

The children can rescind their obligation to take them but only if they are not listed as part of their inheritance.

This is false. Nobody is required to inherit anything, regardless of whether or not it is listed in a will. You cannot force someone to inherit a liability by putting it in your will.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

Wherever you read that it was written by someone who doesn't understand how probate law works or how real property must be dealt with when the owner dies. And there is no such thing as "rescinding" an "obligation". One can rescind a contract if the law allows specifically for that contract to be rescinded, and the rescission must happen within the time frame set forth in the law of the state where the contract was entered into. Rescission rights have absolutely nothing to do with probate.

When someone owns real property, whether it is a home they reside in or an shared interest in a vacation property, and that person dies, then the deceased's estate must be probated (yes, there are dollar thresholds, and rules for how certain types of assets can be transferred, but that is much too much to discuss here). Real estate can only be probated in the jurisdiction where it is located. It is the executor's obligation to comply with the applicable laws and to address the disposition of all assets owned by the deceased at time of death, along with other tasks like a final tax return.

When real property is owned by a revocable living trust, and the grantor of that trust dies, there is no probate. That is the entire purpose of trusts -- to avoid probate. That means that the successor trustee steps in and is able to legally deal with the assets owned by the trust without court intervention. It is a much easier and less costly process than probate.

When someone dies with or without a will, any heir can disclaim a bequest or inheritance. That is an act done by the heir. That doesn't relieve the executor from dealing with the disposal or other transfer of that asset. Real property doesn't just evaporate into thin air when the owner dies. And, if someone's will simply says "everything I own goes to XX" - if the deceased owned a car, a house and a dozen timeshares, then XX has inherited those assets, and can disclaim the inheritance. The executor still deals with those assets in order to close the estate. It is irrelevant that the will did not specifically list the 12 timeshares. It is up to the executor to take an inventory of everything owned by the deceased in order to properly administer the estate. The executor is a fiduciary and owes a fiduciary duty to the estate and heirs of the estate to properly execute the process of estate administration and ultimately report back to the court that all assets have been dealt with. (And yes, there are ways to dispose of assets or be relieved from the requirement of disposing of that asset, but the complexities are many.)

I still have to politely disagree with you that an executor’s fiduciary duty to the estate extends to (spending thousands of dollars) to open an ancillary probate in another state to… do what exactly? Play this out:

1. The executor pays all outstanding debts of the estate including any outstanding debts on the worthless timeshare;
2. The executor determines that there is nobody willing to inherit the worthless timeshare;
3. The resort does not have a deedback program;

So the executor now spends thousands of dollars to open ancillary probate in another state to still sit back and do nothing? There’s nobody the executor can deed that worthless resort to. The only thing they can do is formally abandon the timeshare. I know we’ve gone back and forth on this before, and I truly mean you no disrespect, but I just want to once again provide the alternative position to those that might be reading this thread that I know of no instance reported ever of an executor being successfully sued by a timeshare HOA for failing to open an ancillary probate for this purpose, and I am confident that timeshares are abandoned after death in this manner constantly, so if such a thing ever did happen, we would hear about it here. I don’t think you know of any such instances either based upon our prior discussions.

In my humble opinion, so long as the executor properly pays all creditors all debts that are due at the time the estate is closed, they are fine. The HOA is eventually going to foreclose on the abandoned asset, and the odds of some sort of deficiency judgment being entered against the executor are near nonexistent. And even if a deficiency judgment could be entered, what are the damages? We’re talking about a fully paid off timeshare.

Obviously reasonable people disagree about this, hence the back and forth between myself and LeslieDet, however I feel it necessary to at least post the contrary view.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

The HOA is eventually going to foreclose on the abandoned asset, and the odds of some sort of deficiency judgment being entered against the executor are near nonexistent. And even if a deficiency judgment could be entered, what are the damages? We’re talking about a fully paid off timeshare.

One minor added note. In a jurisdiction that directly taxes timeshare owners, it is likely that the government agency will foreclose on the property due to unpaid taxes, and then put the ownership up for auction. It is my non-lawyer understanding that in this case the government seizure of the property will eliminate all liens attached to the property, including debts and outstanding HOA assessments or dues.

 

[dioxide45]

@Tamaradarann Did they happen to show the video of Kevin O'Leary during the seminar you went to with Encore Law?

 

[chapjim]

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I am happy to deedback some of my timeshares and I don't really care what they do with them after they take them back.

With that said, what I am "obsessing about" is companies that DON'T take the timeshares that they sold you back for $0 but are still selling timeshares in their inventory at high prices.

Not much you can do about that either but if you need something to worry about, it might as well be that.

I'm done with this thread. Too many posts, nothing resolved.

 

[Fido Chuckwagon]

t is my non-lawyer understanding that in this case the government seizure of the property will eliminate all liens attached to the property, including debts and outstanding HOA assessments or dues.

Kind of. A foreclosure action is literally an action by a creditor to "foreclose" other interests in a property so that the property can be sold at auction. So when the government files a tax foreclosure, all other parties with an interest in the property are named parties in the action. The government is going to be first in line to collect any proceeds of the auction, so as a practical matter, yes all the liens are going to be extinguished so the property can be sold and clean title can be conveyed to the purchaser, but if there were funds left over from the sale those funds would go to the downstream lienholders.