ARDA fees seem to be not voluntary on all of my statements. Let's do a letter-writing campaign via email to Vistana about it. Join me, please!

[LahainaMoon]

And this relates ti Cindy's issue......

 

[timsi]

And this relates ti Cindy's issue......

SueDonJ wrote that one could not be certain how many owners did pay the $5 fee. Although the data is not limited to the Vistana onwers, it is interesting not note that if my math is correct about 520,000 owners pay the $5 per year.

 

[sponger76]

SueDonJ wrote that one could not be certain how many owners did pay the $5 fee. Although the data is not limited to the Vistana onwers, it is interesting not note that if my math is correct about 520,000 owners pay the $5 per year.

That may not be the correct math. Some timeshare companies list the contribution as $7, some as $10. While most don't make you opt out like Vistana, some do. In addition (even though I personally would never do so), I assume some people do actually opt in to make the contribution via the timeshare companies that don't force you to opt out.

 

[SueDonJ]

That may not be the correct math. Some timeshare companies list the contribution as $7, some as $10. While most don't make you opt out like Vistana, some do. In addition (even though I personally would never do so), I assume some people do actually opt in to make the contribution via the timeshare companies that don't force you to opt out.

I've made donations with MF's invoices during the years that ARDA-ROC was actively fighting local taxes on timeshares, and I also have no doubt that people contribute to ARDA-ROC voluntarily aside from any "assistance" from MF's invoices. I have a neighbor who owns Marriott timeshares and he told me that he looked up ARDA-ROC after the first time he saw it on an invoice, and he sends them $100 faithfully every year. He's a fairly intelligent resale buyer so I just said I don't and left it there, no sense getting into a whole thing with him when he obviously educated himself satisfactorily, but I have no doubt he's not alone.

 

[SueDonJ]

SueDonJ wrote that one could not be certain how many owners did pay the $5 fee. Although the data is not limited to the Vistana onwers, it is interesting not note that if my math is correct about 520,000 owners pay the $5 per year.

Again, it's a requirement that MF's invoices include a blurb about the suggested contribution being a payment in support of a PAC. Yeah, they might use small print, they might hide it away from directly below the amount (which is where it sits on Marriott invoices,) they might do any number of things to encourage owners to pay it. But the requirement is there, and IMO again, it's on owners to review the invoices and accompanying text to figure out what they're being asked to pay. Like I said above, in some instances it might even convince some owners to pay more than the suggested amount. <shrug>

None of that has anything to do with Cindy's inability to book her timeshares at their earliest reservation windows if she opts out of the suggested ARDA-ROC contribution. And even that isn't the fault of ARDA-ROC, it's apparently the fault of Vistana's accounting method that Marriott inherited and needs to fix.

 

[TUGBrian]

I think the main issue is that this would likely get more traction as a criminal investigation from a state or federal agency in regards to how the political donations are collected despite being labeled as voluntary, vs a civil one.

 

[dioxide45]

I think it was DRI or Westgate that got in trouble years ago with the ARDA fee. I think that was mainly due to collecting it from foreign owners.

 

[TUGBrian]

I think it was DRI or Westgate that got in trouble years ago with the ARDA fee. I think that was mainly due to collecting it from foreign owners.

yes, i had to dig that up...was 2010!

FEC Settles Allegations of Misreporting, Prohibited Contributions and Improper Solicitation - FEC.gov

FEC Settles Allegations of Misreporting, Prohibited Contributions and Improper Solicitation

www.fec.gov

certainly looks like the FEC is the next place to start this little journey!

 

[timsi]

Again, it's a requirement that MF's invoices include a blurb about the suggested contribution being a payment in support of a PAC. Yeah, they might use small print, they might hide it away from directly below the amount (which is where it sits on Marriott invoices,) they might do any number of things to encourage owners to pay it. But the requirement is there, and IMO again, it's on owners to review the invoices and accompanying text to figure out what they're being asked to pay. Like I said above, in some instances it might even convince some owners to pay more than the suggested amount. <shrug>

None of that has anything to do with Cindy's inability to book her timeshares at their earliest reservation windows if she opts out of the suggested ARDA-ROC contribution. And even that isn't the fault of ARDA-ROC, it's apparently the fault of Vistana's accounting method that Marriott inherited and needs to fix.

It is not just what it is written on the bills. Most people pay online and that is what matters. The way it is set up it is very hard for them to say it is optional, if owners have to go to all kind of troubles.

By the way, does that line have to be in the MF at all? If your neighbor wants to contribute to ARDA, he can still do it even if it is not through Marriott.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am going to write a letter to the Florida AG. Vistana's office is in Florida. I need to be succinct, and anyone that knows me can see my problem with being short and to the point.

There just seems to be no way to explain without going into a lot of detail. I need a sentence that describes the problem but cannot find one in my brain.

I would write this in the beginning of the document:

"I am forced to pay voluntary ARDA fees with my Vistana Myrtle Beach weeks, which is supposed to be voluntary. I want to have my invoices changed to reflect nothing due for ARDA. I want to opt out for all of my weeks and for all of my statements to show as $0 due for ARDA."

I have so much going on right now with Christmas and grandkids and programs and church and activities and decorating and cooking. I cannot even think about this right now.

 

[SueDonJ]

It is not just what it is written on the bills. Most people pay online and that is what matters. The way it is set up it is very hard for them to say it is optional, if owners have to go to all kind of troubles.

By the way, does that line have to be in the MF at all? If your neighbor wants to contribute to ARDA, he can still do it even if it is not through Marriott.

Marriott Owners must elect through an opt-in process to receive communication via email. Any owner who doesn't opt in receives the budget packages via USPS mail, and some states mandate that the USPS mail must be sent even if an owner elects email communication.

But Marriott posts the budget packages in owner accounts and it is not at all difficult to click on the obvious link on the payment page that reads: "View Statements and Budgets." From the next page the owner chooses from the list of owned Weeks to bring up the individual resort budget package, and the first page in the package is the invoice which, again, is not at all difficult to find or understand.

My invoice (attached) for two SurfWatch Weeks has the Operating/Reserves/Taxes breakdown and then states clearly:

>>Choose one of These Payment Options:
Amount Due $3,992.18
Amount Due - (with $10.00 per week voluntary ARDA-ROC contribution) $4,012.18

PAC contributions are political contributions not deductible for Federal income tax purposes. You may refuse to contribute or contribute more or less without reprisal or otherwise affecting your membership rights. Federal law provides that PAC contributions may only be made by U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens (green card holders). Contributions from corporations (including contributions made on a corporate credit card) are prohibited.<<

Going back to the payment page the owner must input the amount being paid.

I've already paid mine so the payment page fields are all blank, and I don't remember if that page reflects the voluntary ARDA-ROC contribution in either of the "Current Amount" or "Amount to Pay" fields, but again - and you may certainly disagree - IMO it's on the owners to know exactly what is being charged to them. I wouldn't just go to the payment page and input their suggested amount without first reviewing the budget package. I don't simply accept and pay any bill without reviewing the itemization, so why would I do it for timeshare dues?!

I understand that you think it's important for me to come around and agree with your point of view that Marriott and all the other timeshare companies must be raked over the coals for partnering with ARDA-ROC to solicit owner donations. I'm just not all that invested in wasting negative energy on it, considering that it's not something that has ever appeared to me to be a deliberate effort by Marriott to fleece me for something that gives me no benefit. They explain what they're soliciting, I choose whether to contribute or not. It's not difficult and causes me no problems.

Cindy's situation is entirely different from the ARDA-ROC norm. She owns so many Weeks at an outlier resort that requires pre-payment of MF's in order to access future years' usage, that she's sometimes booking months ahead of the usual furthest reservation window out. Because the Vistana accounting methods don't appear to break out the ARDA-ROC "voluntary" contribution from her "total due" amounts in Use Years further out than the usual one-year booking period, the system "sees" her as being delinquent in her fees and won't let her access the furthest reservation windows. That's wrong; there is no doubt that that's wrong. Vistana should have responded to her legitimate concerns about this years ago when she first started questioning it, and now that Vistana comes under the MVW umbrella then MVW ought to be doing what Vistana didn't to correct this.

 

[timsi]

Marriott Owners must elect through an opt-in process to receive communication via email. Any owner who doesn't opt in receives the budget packages via USPS mail, and some states mandate that the USPS mail must be sent even if an owner elects email communication.

But Marriott posts the budget packages in owner accounts and it is not at all difficult to click on the obvious link on the payment page that reads: "View Statements and Budgets." From the next page the owner chooses from the list of owned Weeks to bring up the individual resort budget package, and the first page in the package is the invoice which, again, is not at all difficult to find or understand.

My invoice (attached) for two SurfWatch Weeks has the Operating/Reserves/Taxes breakdown and then states clearly:

>>Choose one of These Payment Options:
Amount Due $3,992.18
Amount Due - (with $10.00 per week voluntary ARDA-ROC contribution) $4,012.18

PAC contributions are political contributions not deductible for Federal income tax purposes. You may refuse to contribute or contribute more or less without reprisal or otherwise affecting your membership rights. Federal law provides that PAC contributions may only be made by U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens (green card holders). Contributions from corporations (including contributions made on a corporate credit card) are prohibited.<<

Going back to the payment page the owner must input the amount being paid.

I've already paid mine so the payment page fields are all blank, and I don't remember if that page reflects the voluntary ARDA-ROC contribution in either of the "Current Amount" or "Amount to Pay" fields, but again - and you may certainly disagree - IMO it's on the owners to know exactly what is being charged to them. I wouldn't just go to the payment page and input their suggested amount without first reviewing the budget package. I don't simply accept and pay any bill without reviewing the itemization, so why would I do it for timeshare dues?!

I understand that you think it's important for me to come around and agree with your point of view that Marriott and all the other timeshare companies must be raked over the coals for partnering with ARDA-ROC to solicit owner donations. I'm just not all that invested in wasting negative energy on it, considering that it's not something that has ever appeared to me to be a deliberate effort by Marriott to fleece me for something that gives me no benefit. They explain what they're soliciting, I choose whether to contribute or not. It's not difficult and causes me no problems.

Cindy's situation is entirely different from the ARDA-ROC norm. She owns so many Weeks at an outlier resort that requires pre-payment of MF's in order to access future years' usage, that she's sometimes booking months ahead of the usual furthest reservation window out. Because the Vistana accounting methods don't appear to break out the ARDA-ROC "voluntary" contribution from her "total due" amounts in Use Years further out than the usual one-year booking period, the system "sees" her as being delinquent in her fees and won't let her access the furthest reservation windows. That's wrong; there is no doubt that that's wrong. Vistana should have responded to her legitimate concerns about this years ago when she first started questioning it, and now that Vistana comes under the MVW umbrella then MVW ought to be doing what Vistana didn't to correct this.

I think we have a difference of opinion, and we will not resolve it. You think that it is normal for an organization that (IMO) is not representative, or very little representative for the individual owners’ community to be helped to collect millions of dollars, to be full of industry insiders (who, if allowed, may also get paid in addition to their regular compensation), to lobby politicians and probably brag about the hundreds of thousands of owners it represents while in fact attempting to resolve very few of the problems the owners are confronted with. I do not.

 

[Beagles]

I think i want in on this...I just got a bill for yearly dues and have been charged 900$ extra that so far no one has been able to explain and no one has been willing to say it could be a one time fee...then, a week later, got another bill for another 250 that has some double speak attached about "member service fee?"....is this happening to anyone else?

 

[rickandcindy23]

I think i want in on this...I just got a bill for yearly dues and have been charged 900$ extra that so far no one has been able to explain and no one has been willing to say it could be a one time fee...then, a week later, got another bill for another 250 that has some double speak attached about "member service fee?"....is this happening to anyone else?

That would be different than the ARDA voluntary fee that is mandatory when I pay for my MF's in advance to book my weeks.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I think we have a difference of opinion, and we will not resolve it. You think that it is normal for an organization that (IMO) is not representative, or very little representative for the individual owners’ community to be helped to collect millions of dollars, to be full of industry insiders (who, if allowed, may also get paid in addition to their regular compensation), to lobby politicians and probably brag about the hundreds of thousands of owners it represents while in fact attempting to resolve very few of the problems the owners are confronted with. I do not.

I definitely agree with you. I don't want ARDA to get a dime from me. It's stealing money from people who think it's a benevolent organization, when in fact it's all about the developers' interests.

 

[TUGBrian]

not giving up on this, got this "canned" response from my inquiry to the FEC...appears perhaps a complaint is warranted here!

The Federal Election Campaign Act (the Act) generally prohibits corporations (including incorporated trade associations and membership organizations) and labor organizations from using their general treasury funds to make contributions to federal candidates, federal accounts of political party committees, and other political committees (PACs). They may, however, fund independent expenditures, contribute to political committees established solely to finance independent expenditures (Super PACs), contribute to the non-contribution accounts of Hybrid PACs, and establish separate segregated funds (SSFs).

Certain notices are required on all solicitations (oral or written) undertaken by the SSF or individuals working on behalf of the SSF, as outlined.

Statement of political purpose​

Each time the SSF or the connected organization solicits individuals for contributions, the solicitees must be informed of the SSF’s political purpose. For example, in advisory opinion (AO) 2006-17, the Commission approved a statement that noted that the SSF was "for the benefit of political candidates and activities on a state and national level" that supported the industry of the connected organization.

Statement of right to refuse to contribute​

Along with the political purpose of the SSF, each solicitation must inform solicitees of their right to refuse to contribute without reprisal. Note that it is not sufficient merely to say that a contribution to the SSF is "voluntary."

Suggesting a contribution amount​

An SSF or connected organization may wish to suggest to a potential contributor that he or she give a specified amount. When making such a suggestion, the solicitation must also say that:

• The suggested amount is only a suggestion and is not enforceable;
• More or less than the suggested amount may be given (no minimum contribution can be specified); and
• The amount given by the contributor, or the refusal to give, will not benefit or disadvantage the person being solicited.

For more information, pleas consult our Fundraising for a separate segregated fund (SSF) page.

Any person may file a complaint with the Commission if that person believes a violation of the federal election campaign laws or FEC regulations has occurred or is about to occur. The Commission reviews every complaint filed. If the Commission finds that a violation occurred, possible outcomes can range from a letter reiterating compliance obligations to a conciliation agreement, which may include a monetary civil penalty. All FEC enforcement matters are kept confidential until they are resolved.

For more information, please visit our web page on how to file a complaint with the FEC.

We hope this information is helpful. If you have any additional questions about the federal campaign finance law, please contact us at 1-800-424-9530 (press #6 when prompted).

Information Division
Federal Election Commission

 

[rickandcindy23]

I will definitely write a letter to the Florida Attorney General and maybe to the one in South Carolina as well. I don't think one voice will get anything accomplished. I will also complain to the BBB.

So many issues that I personally have with Vistana. One of my Westin Ka'anapali weeks is not showing up in my account to pay fees online. The other one transferred to us months ago. It was the same closing company, same date, same salesperson, which was Syed, even the same seller, so go figure. I was told I have to call to pay the fees.

We closed on a Westin Desert Willow EOY Odd that was sent 9/26 with all pertinent information to transfer to us. And of course the ARDA fees being paid out of 2024 MF's for 2023. I can honestly say I am not a happy owner right now. I was supposed to be able to book something for 2023 in platinum season. I am about giving up on that.

This has been a banner year for Vistana.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I just looked at my paperwork for the Westin Ka'anapali week that is not in our account. Both deeds and the transfer paperwork were sent to Vistana via FedEx by the closing agent on 6/7. I would call 6+ months to show in our account for one of the weeks a bit of a delay.

Vistana is not operating efficiently or effectively. When will Vistana be back to some sort of normal. Who can they blame for this inefficiency. Is it Marriott?

 

[timsi]

"ARDA-ROC is a 501(c)4 non-profit entity funded by over 1.5 million individual timeshare owner's voluntary contributions. ARDA-ROC is dedicated to preserving, protecting, and enhancing vacation ownership through smart policy and sensible regulation. ARDA-ROC advocates for local, state, and federal policies that enable the vacation ownership industry to thrive and provide consumers with an enriched vacation ownership experience. "

I have not seen one solitary ARDA ROC initiative that is positive for the individual owners but goes against the interests of the developers.

 

[SueDonJ]

I will definitely write a letter to the Florida Attorney General and maybe to the one in South Carolina as well. I don't think one voice will get anything accomplished. I will also complain to the BBB.

So many issues that I personally have with Vistana. One of my Westin Ka'anapali weeks is not showing up in my account to pay fees online. The other one transferred to us months ago. It was the same closing company, same date, same salesperson, which was Syed, even the same seller, so go figure. I was told I have to call to pay the fees.

We closed on a Westin Desert Willow EOY Odd that was sent 9/26 with all pertinent information to transfer to us. And of course the ARDA fees being paid out of 2024 MF's for 2023. I can honestly say I am not a happy owner right now. I was supposed to be able to book something for 2023 in platinum season. I am about giving up on that.

This has been a banner year for Vistana.

Cindy, no doubt you have legitimate complaints about how your account is processed in a number of different ways. With respect to this specific issue, though, ie. the issue of being unable to access the earliest reservation windows for certain of your Weeks when you elect to not pay the suggested ARDA-ROC contribution when prepaying your annual MF's, I think Brian is correct that this specific complaint is the FEC's purview. The info quoted in his Post #141 includes a link to instructions for filing a complaint. Ideally, I think it'd be very helpful if @TUGBrian or one of the lawyers on TUG could help you state your case plainly and in such a way that your complaint will lead to an effective resolution. (Any volunteers, TUG?)

I'd guess that filing an FEC complaint will make you well-known in certain Marriott circles - as it should! - and hopefully it would quickly lead to a Marriott somebody finally taking the time to work with you to fix that and the many other issues you're having with your unique account. In an ideal world that's what should happen. If it doesn't then that's where the AG, BBB and others might come into play. But for this one issue related to ARDA-ROC, again, I'd focus on the FEC.

 

[Eric B]

Here's what shows up immediately on the FEC page for submitting complaints (emphasis added):

How to file a complaint with the FEC​

The Federal Election Commission administers and enforces the laws that govern the financing of elections for federal office—the U.S. House, Senate and President. Other election-related laws are not within the FEC's jurisdiction. Any person may file a complaint with the Commission if that person believes a violation of the federal election campaign laws or FEC regulations has occurred or is about to occur. The Commission reviews every complaint filed. If the Commission finds that a violation occurred, possible outcomes can range from a letter reiterating compliance obligations to a conciliation agreement, which may include a monetary civil penalty. All FEC enforcement matters are kept confidential until they are resolved.

I'm not convinced that ARDA-ROC is involved with elections for federal office. Instead, I believe it's a lobbying organization. I'm not sure what other agencies would be appropriate to report this sort of thing to, but they strike me as mostly lobbying State governmental entities rather than Federal ones. It might be worth looking into whether there is State law coverage in the location where the resorts are that are doing this and approaching it that way as well. For Federal coverage, it might be a DOJ/US Attorney type of issue.

 

[TUGBrian]

I do plan on doing so, however I figure after the holidays is probably a better time to get something like that submitted to a large government entity!

 

[CPNY]

I just looked at my paperwork for the Westin Ka'anapali week that is not in our account. Both deeds and the transfer paperwork were sent to Vistana via FedEx by the closing agent on 6/7. I would call 6+ months to show in our account for one of the weeks a bit of a delay.

Vistana is not operating efficiently or effectively. When will Vistana be back to some sort of normal. Who can they blame for this inefficiency. Is it Marriott?

It’s been a mess since Marriott took over and started implementing new personnel. The Marriott procedures are a disgrace. I’d love for them to make the ARDA easier to opt out of. Having to manually subtract it is a PITA for the simple fact that it’s sometimes easier to forget to do.

 

[pedro47]

I will definitely write a letter to the Florida Attorney General and maybe to the one in South Carolina as well. I don't think one voice will get anything accomplished. I will also complain to the BBB.

So many issues that I personally have with Vistana. One of my Westin Ka'anapali weeks is not showing up in my account to pay fees online. The other one transferred to us months ago. It was the same closing company, same date, same salesperson, which was Syed, even the same seller, so go figure. I was told I have to call to pay the fees.

We closed on a Westin Desert Willow EOY Odd that was sent 9/26 with all pertinent information to transfer to us. And of course the ARDA fees being paid out of 2024 MF's for 2023. I can honestly say I am not a happy owner right now. I was supposed to be able to book something for 2023 in platinum season. I am about giving up on that.

This has been a banner year for Vistana.

Excellent choices to contact.

 

[Eric B]

FYI, @TUGBrian, I believe I've found a more egregious failure to disclose the voluntary ARDA-ROC contribution included in maintenance fee billings. I'm going through the transfer for a resale HGVC ownership at The District and the estoppel lists the amount of the 2023 maintenance fees at exactly $5 higher than the reported fees in the 2023 maintenance fee listing here on TUG for the same unit while the 2023 taxes exactly match between the two. As the 2023 usage is my first year of usage, I'm reimbursing the seller for the 2023 maintenance fees and taxes in conjunction with the purchase. The closing is being accomplished by HGVC and they just provided me with the settlement statement indicating I need to provide that amount as part of the process - I've asked that the extra $5 be removed as I don't desire to make the contribution, but haven't heard back yet.

Bottom line is that HGVC appears to be including the $5 "voluntary" ARDA-ROC contribution in their disclosure of maintenance fees without breaking it out separately and identifying it as a voluntary contribution, which is probably inappropriate as it could form the basis for payments by purchasers similarly situated to me.