• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 31 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 31st Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $23,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $23 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    Tens of thousands of subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

ARDA fees seem to be not voluntary on all of my statements. Let's do a letter-writing campaign via email to Vistana about it. Join me, please!

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
23,291
Reaction score
9,071
Location
Florida
well, sadly the response received while detailed in nature and well written by someone who probably has a whole lot of better things to do than answer me personally...

it has resulted in "nothing really going to change here" as they feel that the statements clearly indicate the charge is voluntary and also indicate that if you wish to opt out, to simply pay the balance "less" the donation (which it does, in really small print, much smaller than the giant bold print they use to warn owners that failure to pay the balance will result in suspension of ownership and cancellation of reservations).

They also cited that vistana uses a completely different billing system compared to MVC, and making changes on a system wide scale there would be difficult at best. (more difficult if you dont actually want to make the changes in the first place).

My argument of course is that a fee that is applied that requires you to go thru an extra step to choose to NOT pay, does not fit the term voluntary by any way shape or form. However I am not sure my argument carries much weight in the grand scheme of things that likely result in millions of dollars being involved.

I suppose I will have to bark up another tree to gain the attention of someone with a more vested interest in what one might consider a misuse of political campaign contributions collections etc. we shall see who I can seek an appointment with.

I still believe this is just flat out wrong to call this a "voluntary" donation.
 
Last edited:

rickandcindy23

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
33,799
Reaction score
10,283
Location
The Centennial State
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Founder; Disney OKW & SSR; Marriott's Willow Ridge and Shadow Ridge,Grand Chateau; Val Chatelle; Hono Koa OF (3); SBR(LOTS), SDO a few; Grand Palms(selling); WKORV-OF ,Westin Desert Willow.
I paid estimated fees for 2024 on several of my weeks, and I am going to have to pay the $5.00 to book my weeks for 2024. That makes it anything but voluntary. The people on the phone even argue that the $5.00 I am short is not the ARDA fee, it's that I shorted my payment for 2024 by $5.00.

Paid $1,161.24 for 2024, which is the estimated fee for 2024.
$5.00 fee from that amount is now applied to 2023 payment to cover the ARDA fee that is in the total due.
Now I will have to pay $5.00 to book each of my weeks for 2024 or the computer system will stop the owner services person from booking my 2024 week.
 

pedro47

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
22,884
Reaction score
9,099
Location
East Coast
How many ts owners are there, multiple that by $5.00 and that is an easy money making deal for profit. Now split that money 50/50
$2.50 for ARDA and $2.50 for the timeshare corporations.
 

timsi

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
495
Why would Marriott change anything if it works for them the way it is currently set up? An organization full of insiders that is paid by the owners so they can claim it represents the owners.
 

tamu_bu

TUG Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2019
Messages
139
Reaction score
103
Resorts Owned
Westin Kierland
They also cited that vistana uses a completely different billing system compared to MVC, and making changes on a system wide scale there would be difficult at best.

Extremely short-sighted but a classic example of senior leadership ignoring the hidden cost of back office processing not to mention customer dissatisfaction. They have no concept of the amount of time wasted by their own staff dealing with the problem it causes.

I would guess that the Vistana IT has been trimmed quite a bit and the "accounts payable" issue truly won't get fixed for a long time or ever.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
50,484
Reaction score
21,930
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
I paid estimated fees for 2024 on several of my weeks, and I am going to have to pay the $5.00 to book my weeks for 2024. That makes it anything but voluntary. The people on the phone even argue that the $5.00 I am short is not the ARDA fee, it's that I shorted my payment for 2024 by $5.00.

Paid $1,161.24 for 2024, which is the estimated fee for 2024.
$5.00 fee from that amount is now applied to 2023 payment to cover the ARDA fee that is in the total due.
Now I will have to pay $5.00 to book each of my weeks for 2024 or the computer system will stop the owner services person from booking my 2024 week.
I think in order to fix the issue on your end, you need to go through a full cycle where you don't prepay fees so far in advance. Our projected fees for next year show the amount minus the $5, this is because I didn't pay the $5 last year. By prepaying and thus also paying the additional $5, the system thinks your prepayment should also include that $5.

Also, why are you having to pay the $5 just to make a reservation? Is that necessary? I thought prepayment was only required for depositing into II. Prepayment isn't required for any VSN reservations.
 

rickandcindy23

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
33,799
Reaction score
10,283
Location
The Centennial State
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Founder; Disney OKW & SSR; Marriott's Willow Ridge and Shadow Ridge,Grand Chateau; Val Chatelle; Hono Koa OF (3); SBR(LOTS), SDO a few; Grand Palms(selling); WKORV-OF ,Westin Desert Willow.
I think in order to fix the issue on your end, you need to go through a full cycle where you don't prepay fees so far in advance. Our projected fees for next year show the amount minus the $5, this is because I didn't pay the $5 last year. By prepaying and thus also paying the additional $5, the system thinks your prepayment should also include that $5.

Also, why are you having to pay the $5 just to make a reservation? Is that necessary? I thought prepayment was only required for depositing into II. Prepayment isn't required for any VSN reservations.
Yes, it's necessary to pay it for SBP weeks. Since SBP is an old resort, taken over by Vistana many years ago, they have separate rules.
 

pacman777

TUG Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
629
Reaction score
219
filing a class-action or threat of one will probably get a better response from them. Can easily prove their system is set-up to unfairly and deceptively make the "voluntary" fee not voluntary based on the issues of member booking functionality when short-paying the ARDA fee.
 

tomvc

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Messages
338
Reaction score
167
Location
SF Bay Area
I borrowed StarOptions 2 years in a row. I had to pay the 2023 ARDA $5 fee and 2024 estimated MF before I was able to borrow from 2024. Borrowing 1 year only is ok because MF usually goes up and you can pay the net difference less $5.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,686
Reaction score
5,916
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
Why would Marriott change anything if it works for them the way it is currently set up? An organization full of insiders that is paid by the owners so they can claim it represents the owners.
One more time for the folks in the cheap seats:

This hasn't ever happened with Marriott-branded timeshares. It's a holdover for certain Vistana resorts from long before Vistana came under the Marriott umbrella, and it's a direct result of some Vistana resorts requiring pre-payment of future years' MF's in certain instances (again, not a thing with Marriott timeshares.) Cripes, must you fault Marriott for everything in the known universe?!?! If they wanted to fleece owners over the ARDA-ROC contributions simply because they can, doesn't it stand to reason that they would have been doing it for decades at the many more Marriott-branded timeshares?

@TUGBrian, I like your idea of focusing on the fact that this is supposed to be a "voluntary" payment to a political action committee, and I agree that Marriott Vacations Worldwide needs a reminder that there are laws governing PAC soliciting - not sure who you were dealing with but if you haven't been in contact yet with the Incoming (as of 1/1/23) CEO John Geller and Exec VP/General Counsel James Hunter, I'd be writing them next. I agree with you that Marriott can't be let off the hook despite them inheriting this problem from Vistana. That's just not a good enough reason to allow this to continue to plague Vistana owners.

{eta} "Contact Us" info from that linked website:

Global Corporate Headquarters
9002 San Marco Court
Orlando, FL 32819
United States of America
P: 407-206-6000
 
Last edited:

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
23,291
Reaction score
9,071
Location
Florida
filing a class-action or threat of one will probably get a better response from them. Can easily prove their system is set-up to unfairly and deceptively make the "voluntary" fee not voluntary based on the issues of member booking functionality when short-paying the ARDA fee.
not sure there is really any money in it for an attorney to take this on, id think a better source would be a government agency or ags office as it specifically covers political donations to a PAC.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Lifetime Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
50,484
Reaction score
21,930
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
It would be interesting to see what percentage of owners pay this fee for MVC and Vistana based on how they manage this. Vistana you have to subtract the $5 and Marriott you have to actually put it in. Now Marriott does still make it look like $10 is due when you are going in to pay. Just wondering what the statistics are for this.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
23,291
Reaction score
9,071
Location
Florida
One more time for the folks in the cheap seats:

This hasn't ever happened with Marriott-branded timeshares. It's a holdover for certain Vistana resorts from long before Vistana came under the Marriott umbrella. Cripes, must you fault Marriott for everything in the known universe?!?! If they wanted to fleece owners over the ARDA-ROC contributions simply because they can, doesn't it stand to reason that they would have been doing it for decades at the many more Marriott-branded timeshares?

@TUGBrian, I like your idea of focusing on the fact that this is supposed to be a "voluntary" payment to a political action committee, and I agree that Marriott Vacations Worldwide needs a reminder that there are laws governing PAC soliciting - not sure who you were dealing with but if you haven't been in contact yet with the Incoming (as of 1/1/23) CEO John Geller and Exec VP/General Counsel James Hunter, I'd be writing them next. I agree with you that Marriott can't be let off the hook despite them inheriting this problem from Vistana. That's just not a good enough reason to allow this to continue to plague Vistana owners.

{eta} "Contact Us" info from that linked website:

Global Corporate Headquarters
9002 San Marco Court
Orlando, FL 32819
United States of America
P: 407-206-6000
wont reveal the individual(s) I reached out to and got replies from without their express permission as id like to keep that line of communication open for this and perhaps other future issues and id imagine just copying/pasting quotes from individuals publicly would be a great way for them to never respond to me again in the future!

certainly have no desire to let this go, and I expressed that in my response. this is something that impacts thousands of timeshare owners and both could, and should be addressed. I didnt really expect them to drop everything and start making changes etc....we shall have to come up with more creative ways to get the point across I suppose!

Right now it would appear there is no motivation to spend the time or money to make any changes, will have to figure out how to change that!
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
23,291
Reaction score
9,071
Location
Florida
It would be interesting to see what percentage of owners pay this fee for MVC and Vistana based on how they manage this. Vistana you have to subtract the $5 and Marriott you have to actually put it in. Now Marriott does still make it look like $10 is due when you are going in to pay. Just wondering what the statistics are for this.
id be fascinated to know the difference as well!

youd think voluntary PAC contribution information would have to be public? perhaps there is some obscure law that makes donations below a certain amount immune to said publicity?
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,686
Reaction score
5,916
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
wont reveal the individual(s) I reached out to and got replies from without their express permission as id like to keep that line of communication open for this and perhaps other future issues and id imagine just copying/pasting quotes from individuals publicly would be a great way for them to never respond to me again in the future!

certainly have no desire to let this go, and I expressed that in my response. this is something that impacts thousands of timeshare owners and both could, and should be addressed. I didnt really expect them to drop everything and start making changes etc....we shall have to come up with more creative ways to get the point across I suppose!

Right now it would appear there is no motivation to spend the time or money to make any changes, will have to figure out how to change that!
Totally agree, there's no upside to you revealing who you've been in contact with - good Marriott contacts are hard to get and easy to lose. :)
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,686
Reaction score
5,916
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
not sure there is really any money in it for an attorney to take this on, id think a better source would be a government agency or ags office as it specifically covers political donations to a PAC.
arda-roc.gov: ROC Overview

fec.gov: Political Action Committees (PACs)

I'd say there's enough basic info in those two websites to make the case to the FEC that they might be interested in the "voluntary" collection efforts of certain Vistana resorts that come under the MVW umbrella.
 

timsi

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
495
One more time for the folks in the cheap seats:

This hasn't ever happened with Marriott-branded timeshares. It's a holdover for certain Vistana resorts from long before Vistana came under the Marriott umbrella, and it's a direct result of some Vistana resorts requiring pre-payment of future years' MF's in certain instances (again, not a thing with Marriott timeshares.) Cripes, must you fault Marriott for everything in the known universe?!?! If they wanted to fleece owners over the ARDA-ROC contributions simply because they can, doesn't it stand to reason that they would have been doing it for decades at the many more Marriott-branded timeshares?

@TUGBrian, I like your idea of focusing on the fact that this is supposed to be a "voluntary" payment to a political action committee, and I agree that Marriott Vacations Worldwide needs a reminder that there are laws governing PAC soliciting - not sure who you were dealing with but if you haven't been in contact yet with the Incoming (as of 1/1/23) CEO John Geller and Exec VP/General Counsel James Hunter, I'd be writing them next. I agree with you that Marriott can't be let off the hook despite them inheriting this problem from Vistana. That's just not a good enough reason to allow this to continue to plague Vistana owners.

{eta} "Contact Us" info from that linked website:

Global Corporate Headquarters
9002 San Marco Court
Orlando, FL 32819
United States of America
P: 407-206-6000
To the folks that believe that the fusion energy breakthrough is owed at least in part to Marriott: Marriott has been in charge for 4.5 years and after so long they can’t blame the old team, especially since it is clear from the answers Brian got that they don’t even intend to change it and they find justifications to keep it the way it is. I never said they contributed to the initial decision, but it is obvious that strategically they benefit from this arrangement and they have no reason to change it, let alone spend time or money to address it.
 

timsi

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
495
not sure there is really any money in it for an attorney to take this on, id think a better source would be a government agency or ags office as it specifically covers political donations to a PAC.
250,000 Vistana owners, every year say 50% pay the $5 fee without bothering with the details, multiply by several years. It is not a huge amount of money but it is not a very complicated case either.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,686
Reaction score
5,916
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
To the folks that believe that the fusion energy breakthrough is owed at least in part to Marriott: Marriott has been in charge for 4.5 years and after so long they can’t blame the old team, especially since it is clear from the answers Brian got that they don’t even intend to change it and they find justifications to keep it the way it is. I never said they contributed to the initial decision, but it is obvious that strategically they benefit from this arrangement and they have no reason to change it, let alone spend time or money to address it.
How?! How would Marriott benefit now, and how did Vistana benefit prior to coming under the Marriott umbrella, from ARDA-ROC contributions being made via MF's payments? Marriott doesn't keep that money, it's handed over to the PAC because keeping it would obviously put the timeshare companies in violation of FEC regs. So where exactly is the benefit for the timeshare company when a simple inquiry to the FEC could cause problems for them?

As for the fusion breakthrough, go Marriott! Next I expect they'll cure cancer.

<thud>
 

timsi

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
495
How?! How would Marriott benefit now, and how did Vistana benefit prior to coming under the Marriott umbrella, from ARDA-ROC contributions being made via MF's payments? Marriott doesn't keep that money, it's handed over to the PAC because keeping it would obviously put the timeshare companies in violation of FEC regs. So where exactly is the benefit for the timeshare company when a simple inquiry to the FEC could cause problems for them?

As for the fusion breakthrough, go Marriott! Next I expect they'll cure cancer.

<thud>
If you really do not understand how a well funded "owners" association controlled by the timeshare companies and paid by the owners benefits the timeshare companies, there is not much for me to add.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,686
Reaction score
5,916
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
250,000 Vistana owners, every year say 50% pay the $5 fee without bothering with the details, multiply by several years. It is not a huge amount of money but it is not a very complicated case either.
You're talking about something other than the reason Cindy started this thread. She's caught up in the web of being an owner at a certain resort that requires pre-payment of future years' MF's to access usage for those years, and when she tries to pre-pay MF's minus the ARDA-ROC contribution, she's unable to access that usage. There's no way that the number of similarly-impacted Vistana owners is in the hundreds of thousands.

There's also no way for you or anybody to be certain of how many owners (not sharing Cindy's unique ownership status) ignore the fine print on their MF's invoices and simply pay the ARDA-ROC suggested contribution, but I guess the way the invoices are written it's more common for it to happen with Vistana payments than with Marriott payments (because Vistana is opt-out while Marriott is opt-in.) In either case, though, IMO unknowingly paying ARDA-ROC contributions is a matter of owners not being careful enough when paying MF's.

No, of course I don't like that the timeshare companies have reached an agreement with ARDA-ROC to solicit PAC payments, but as long as they're voluntary and the owners don't have to jump through hoops to not pay them then I can live with the system. Cindy's issue isn't simply that she doesn't want to pay them; it's that she's a member of a small group of owners who have no choice but to pay them if they want to access certain reservation windows at their earliest openings.
 
Last edited:

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
23,291
Reaction score
9,071
Location
Florida

rickandcindy23

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
33,799
Reaction score
10,283
Location
The Centennial State
Resorts Owned
Wyndham Founder; Disney OKW & SSR; Marriott's Willow Ridge and Shadow Ridge,Grand Chateau; Val Chatelle; Hono Koa OF (3); SBR(LOTS), SDO a few; Grand Palms(selling); WKORV-OF ,Westin Desert Willow.
@SueDonJ That is exactly the issue.
 

timsi

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
495
You're talking about something other than the reason Cindy started this thread. She's caught up in the web of being an owner at a certain resort that requires pre-payment of future years' MF's to access usage for those years, and when she tries to pre-pay MF's minus the ARDA-ROC contribution, she's unable to access that usage. There's no way that the number of similarly-impacted Vistana owners is in the hundreds of thousands.

There's also no way for you or anybody to be certain of how many owners (not sharing Cindy's unique ownership status) ignore the fine print on their MF's invoices and simply pay the ARDA-ROC suggested contribution, but I guess the way the invoices are written it's more common for it to happen with Vistana payments than with Marriott payments (because Vistana is opt-out while Marriott is opt-in.) In either case, though, IMO unknowingly paying ARDA-ROC contributions is a matter of owners not being careful enough when paying MF's.

No, of course I don't like that the timeshare companies have reached an agreement with ARDA-ROC to solicit PAC payments, but as long as they're voluntary and the owners don't have to jump through hoops to not pay them then I can live with the system. Cindy's issue isn't simply that she doesn't want to pay them; it's that she's a member of a small group of owners who have no choice but to pay them if they want to access certain reservation windows at their earliest openings.
Did you miss by any chance the other comments?

Pacman: “filing a class-action or threat of one will probably get a better response from them. Can easily prove their system is set-up to unfairly and deceptively make the "voluntary" fee not voluntary based on the issues of member booking functionality when short-paying the ARDA fee.”

TUGBrian: “not sure there is really any money in it for an attorney to take this on, id think a better source would be a government agency or ags office as it specifically covers political donations to a PAC.”

Timsi: “250,000 Vistana owners, every year say 50% pay the $5 fee without bothering with the details, multiply by several years. It is not a huge amount of money, but it is not a very complicated case either.”

SueDonJ: “You're talking about something other than the reason Cindy started this thread.”
 

timsi

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
Messages
1,427
Reaction score
495
You're talking about something other than the reason Cindy started this thread. She's caught up in the web of being an owner at a certain resort that requires pre-payment of future years' MF's to access usage for those years, and when she tries to pre-pay MF's minus the ARDA-ROC contribution, she's unable to access that usage. There's no way that the number of similarly-impacted Vistana owners is in the hundreds of thousands.

There's also no way for you or anybody to be certain of how many owners (not sharing Cindy's unique ownership status) ignore the fine print on their MF's invoices and simply pay the ARDA-ROC suggested contribution, but I guess the way the invoices are written it's more common for it to happen with Vistana payments than with Marriott payments (because Vistana is opt-out while Marriott is opt-in.) In either case, though, IMO unknowingly paying ARDA-ROC contributions is a matter of owners not being careful enough when paying MF's.

No, of course I don't like that the timeshare companies have reached an agreement with ARDA-ROC to solicit PAC payments, but as long as they're voluntary and the owners don't have to jump through hoops to not pay them then I can live with the system. Cindy's issue isn't simply that she doesn't want to pay them; it's that she's a member of a small group of owners who have no choice but to pay them if they want to access certain reservation windows at their earliest openings.
Many enough (not just Vistana), according to FEC.gov:

AMERICAN RESORT DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION RESORT OWNERS COALITION PAC (ARDA-ROC PAC)
Financial summary
TWO-YEAR PERIOD

2021–2022
Total raised Browse receipts Coverage dates: 01/01/2021 to 11/28/2022
TOTAL RECEIPTS $5,569,858.41
TOTAL CONTRIBUTIONS $5,196,970.00
Total individual contributions $5,196,970.00
Itemized individual contributions $0.00
Unitemized individual contributions $5,196,970.00
Party committee contributions $0.00
Other committee contributions $0.00
Presidential public funds $0.00
TRANSFERS FROM AFFILIATED COMMITTEES $0.00
ALL LOANS RECEIVED $0.00
LOAN REPAYMENTS RECEIVED $0.00
OFFSETS TO OPERATING EXPENDITURES $8,534.00
CANDIDATE REFUNDS $19,600.00
OTHER RECEIPTS $344,754.41
TOTAL TRANSFERS $0.00
Non-federal transfers $0.00
Levin funds $0.00
TOTAL FEDERAL RECEIPTS $5,569,858.41

Cash summary Coverage dates: 01/01/2021 to 11/28/2022
BEGINNING CASH ON HAND $9,294,621.65
ENDING CASH ON HAND $10,697,085.7
1
 
Top