ARDA fees seem to be not voluntary on all of my statements. Let's do a letter-writing campaign via email to Vistana about it. Join me, please!

[SueDonJ]

For those who do not know, this is the board of directors for the ARDA-ROC. Does anyone believe they are going to push for any positive change for the owners that is against the interests of the developers? The developers should pay for this, giving this association any amount of money only gives them cover to claim they represent the common folks.

Directors

Travis Bary, RRP, Capital Vacations
Michael Brown, Travel + Leisure Co.
Janice Feirstein RRP, Daily Management, Inc.
Jason Gamel, ARDA
Ada Grzywna, Bluegreen Vacations
Don Harrill, RRP, Chair, AIF
Neil Hutchinson, RRP, Hilton Grand Vacations
Robert Miller, RRP, Global Alliance for Timeshare Excellence
Richard Muller, RRP, VRI Americas
Annie Roberts, Wyndham Destinations
Jared Saft, Westgate Resorts
Lisa Siegert-Free, RRP, Christie Lodge
Sverre Thomassen, Owner Representative
Kimberly Tramontana, RRP, Breckenridge Grand Vacations
Robert Webb Esq., RRP, Baker & Hostetler
Scott Weisz, Marriott Vacations Worldwide

Asked and answered a number of times. No, nobody believes that ARDA-ROC (owners' coalition) would lobby the opposite position that ARDA (developers' coalition) lobbies for/against. But that doesn't cynically mean that ARDA-ROC doesn't serve a purpose, nor does it mean that ARDA-ROC always stands alongside ARDA when they're lobbying, nor does it mean that an owner's donation to ARDA-ROC "only gives them cover to claim they represent the common folks." They DO represent the "common folks" (if by using that term you're referencing the timeshare owners) which is an important distinction that's recognized by legislators during the process, and it can be beneficial for ARDA to be able to stand in front of legislators making the claim that the owners' coalition is in agreement with their position. Developers and owners are not always adversaries, one example being the tourism taxation at Hilton Head Island that hasn't materialized.

My opinion here is the same as Brian's - whatever the contractual agreements are between the timeshare developers and ARDA-ROC that have resulted in "voluntary" ARDA-ROC contributions being solicited via the MF's collections, at the very least it should be an opt-in selection which causes ZERO lasting consequences to ownership accounts regardless of an owner's choice to contribute or not. I don't personally care if any owners choose to contribute or not, don't care even if owners choose to avail themselves of the information that ARDA-ROC makes available to owners about its activity. And I certainly don't expect that owners should agree with me when/if I mention something that I think ARDA-ROC is doing right or wrong.

I do care when owners criticize ARDA-ROC for being something it's not (i.e a developer org) or when owners misinterpret the activities they're performing/their motivations for doing so. And I'm glad that Brian took the time to explain in this thread the difference between the two lobbying groups - a difference that for some reason surprises even longtime TUGgers every year that this topic comes up.

 

[timsi]

Robert Webb Esq., RRP, Baker & Hostetler also has an interesting bio:

Professionals | Robert J. Webb B.C.S., RRP BakerHostetler

Our attorneys represent companies across every industry, from market-leading global powerhouses to trailblazing startups, helping clients minimize risk and capitalize on opportunities that will strengthen and grow their businesses.

www.bakerlaw.com

"Rob Webb maintains a diverse international hospitality law practice with a strong emphasis on resort development and the travel and leisure industry. Rob has been active in the American Resort Development Association (ARDA) – the U.S. timeshare trade association – for 41 years, and he has participated in the negotiation, drafting and lobbying of and for laws and administrative rules affecting the timeshare industry throughout the U.S. and the Caribbean since 1983. He currently serves ARDA as director, secretary and association general counsel.



Experience

Advised clients in the structuring, development, marketing/sales, financing and management of numerous shared ownership and mixed-use leisure resorts, including the conversion of hotels to timeshare in Antigua, the Bahamas, Barbados, Barbuda, Bermuda, Canada, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Grenada, Jamaica, Mexico, Puerto Rico, St. Kitts, St. Lucia, the Turks and Caicos Islands, the U.S. Virgin Islands and throughout the U.S.

Serves as general counsel, secretary and director of a diversified hospitality client.Advised a client regarding an international arbitration against a Caribbean government regarding a branded condominium hotel failure.

Assisted in the representation of a resort and marina during recapitalization and redevelopment. The redevelopment included a large hotel and marina with access to both Atlantic and Gulf sides of the Florida Keys.

Represented a bank regarding the creation and launch of its timeshare consumer finance division. Advised and assisted the bank in laying the groundwork for its securitization conduit for loans.

Serves as an ongoing advisor to a major Internet-based timeshare resale platform in matters that include related regulatory, financing and tax issues.

Advised in the creation and use of several different trust platforms to own timeshare real property, as well as the use of a nonprofit association to serve as sole beneficiary of the trust. Provided advice regarding several complex and related regulatory and tax implications of structure.

Represented a hospitality client in the acquisition and rebranding of a mixed-use high-rise in downtown Miami.

Conceived and drafted a legislative proposal to amend the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and create a special liquidation process for financially troubled timeshare HOAs and their projects.

Assisted with the completion of the acquisition of two subdivisions in Orlando, Florida, and the commencement of whole unit and timeshare sales. Negotiated and documented a hypothecation facility for timeshare sales in plans.

Assisted in the representation of a marketing agent and developer of a large luxury-leisure resort in Switzerland with respect to various registration, licensing, tax and transactional legal issues associated with offering real estate interests in the U.S.

Assisted in the representation of a successor developer of a mixed-use timeshare resort in litigation to establish control of the Master Association of the resort, as well as to establish the right of its multisite, trust-based Members Association to vote in resort condo association board elections. Advised the client on several other management and brand-related issues."

 

[timsi]

Asked and answered a number of times. No, nobody believes that ARDA-ROC (owners' coalition) would lobby the opposite position that ARDA (developers' coalition) lobbies for/against. But that doesn't cynically mean that ARDA-ROC doesn't serve a purpose, nor does it mean that ARDA-ROC always stands alongside ARDA when they're lobbying, nor does it mean that an owner's donation to ARDA-ROC "only gives them cover to claim they represent the common folks." They DO represent the "common folks" (if by using that term you're referencing the timeshare owners) which is an important distinction that's recognized by legislators during the process, and it can be beneficial for ARDA to be able to stand in front of legislators making the claim that the owners' coalition is in agreement with their position. Developers and owners are not always adversaries, one example being the tourism taxation at Hilton Head Island that hasn't materialized.

My opinion here is the same as Brian's - whatever the contractual agreements are between the timeshare developers and ARDA-ROC that have resulted in "voluntary" ARDA-ROC contributions being solicited via the MF's collections, at the very least it should be an opt-in selection which causes ZERO lasting consequences to ownership accounts regardless of an owner's choice to contribute or not. I don't personally care if any owners choose to contribute or not, don't care even if owners choose to avail themselves of the information that ARDA-ROC makes available to owners about its activity. And I certainly don't expect that owners should agree with me when/if I mention something that I think ARDA-ROC is doing right or wrong.

I do care when owners criticize ARDA-ROC for being something it's not (i.e a developer org) or when owners misinterpret the activities they're performing/their motivations for doing so. And I'm glad that Brian took the time to explain in this thread the difference between the two lobbying groups - a difference that for some reason surprises even longtime TUGgers every year that this topic comes up.

If ARDA-ROC would not lobby the opposite position to ARDA's, by definition you cannot say it represents the owners. The bios of the directors is all one needs to know.

 

[SueDonJ]

If ARDA-ROC would not lobby the opposite position to ARDA's, by definition you cannot say it represents the owners. The bios of the directors is all one needs to know.

Actually, "by definition" I can confidently say that representing the owners is ARDA-ROC's fundamental stated purpose!

I get it, for some people it's a simple implied truth that any org which has developer representatives involved is a de facto developer org. I simply disagree. Beyond that, why is it assumed that developers' positions are NEVER beneficial to owners? And why ignore the inference that if ARDA-ROC is not standing alongside ARDA during the lobbying process, it's understood by savvy legislators that the owners' coalition is not supportive?

Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a couple BOD positions meant to be supportive of owner/member considerations. I'd never expect those individuals to go against any MVW position or put MVW at risk by publicly supporting a position not held by the company or by outing company secrets, but I do expect them to be accountable to owners and in my experience with at least one of the current board's members that expectation was fulfilled. They're not our enemy. They're not going to always like or support what we have to say, but they're not our enemy. In the right circumstances our interests align with theirs and I think that has some value. IMO the same applies with ARDA-ROC.

 

[timsi]

Actually, "by definition" I can confidently say that representing the owners is ARDA-ROC's fundamental stated purpose!

I get it, for some people it's a simple implied truth that any org which has developer representatives involved is a de facto developer org. I simply disagree. Beyond that, why is it assumed that developers' positions are NEVER beneficial to owners? And why ignore the inference that if ARDA-ROC is not standing alongside ARDA during the lobbying process, it's understood by savvy legislators that the owners' coalition is not supportive?

Marriott Vacations Worldwide has a couple BOD positions meant to be supportive of owner/member considerations. I'd never expect those individuals to go against any MVW position or put MVW at risk by publicly supporting a position not held by the company or by outing company secrets, but I do expect them to be accountable to owners and in my experience with at least one of the current board's members that expectation was fulfilled. They're not our enemy. They're not going to always like or support what we have to say, but they're not our enemy. In the right circumstances our interests align with theirs and I think that has some value. IMO the same applies with ARDA-ROC.

What I actually said: "Does anyone believe they are going to push for any positive change for the owners that is against the interests of the developers? "
Obviously, there are possible changes that can be positive for both, but that was not what I was referring to.

 

[SueDonJ]

What I actually said: "Does anyone believe they are going to push for any positive change for the owners that is against the interests of the developers? "
Obviously, there are possible changes that can be positive for both, but that was not what I was referring to.

How many times does it need to be asked and answered?

Asked and answered a number of times. No, nobody believes that ARDA-ROC (owners' coalition) would lobby the opposite position that ARDA (developers' coalition) lobbies for/against.

 

[timsi]

How many times does it need to be asked and answered?

You asked: "Beyond that, why is it assumed that developers' positions are NEVER beneficial to owners? "

 

[rickandcindy23]

Fact is, I want to choose where I donate my money. I don't want to be forced to pay in order to book my week for 2024.

 

[SueDonJ]

You asked: "Beyond that, why is it assumed that developers' positions are NEVER beneficial to owners? "

Right.

I'm not understanding this train of thought. Just because all of the developers' positions are not advantageous to owners, that doesn't automatically translate to the developers and owners always being in adversarial positions. Also it can be true at the same time that, "ARDA will never lobby against developer positions" and "ARDA-ROC does not always support ARDA positions." Withholding support for a position can be IMO as valuable as actively opposing a position, one being passive and the other aggressive.

 

[TUGBrian]

my rebuttal to that is if you created a list of the most important things for OWNERS for the industry to focus on changing....both arda and arda roc would likely ignore or be in direct opposition to (if not already are) every one of them.

would be a fun list, and id put as my top 3.

1. resale/exit scams
2. misrepresentation and or shady sales presentation tactics
3. extending rescission periods or protections for owners

and none of these are "new" issues.

 

[SueDonJ]

my rebuttal to that is if you created a list of the most important things for OWNERS for the industry to focus on changing....both arda and arda roc would likely ignore or be in direct opposition to (if not already are) every one of them.

would be a fun list, and id put as my top 3.

1. resale/exit scams
2. misrepresentation and or shady sales presentation tactics
3. extending rescission periods or protections for owners

and none of these are "new" issues.

I'd want sales reps to be required to explain the reservation process in detail, and it wouldn't be enough to just require that they don't misrepresent any aspect of it. I'd want written material that explains the importance of Reservation Windows, floating calendars, the number of potential owners in competition, etc. Even if the only result is that the people who can't book vacations out more than a few months decide that timesharing doesn't fit their lifestyle, it'll save some aggravation.

 

[TUGBrian]

oh no doubt there are huge branches that could be focused on for line item 2...i was being rather general there =D

 

[rickandcindy23]

 

[rickandcindy23]

It's probably not all that clear on your screen with my print screen + copy/ paste, but as you can see, I paid fees in advance If you add the amounts due, including the ARDA fee, and subtract my prepayment, the total due is $122.27.

But this goes back to my initial concern that people just pay it and don't bother to add these amounts together and see that the $5.00 ARDA fee is included in the total amount due. It's not news or anything. It's been going on forever.

 

[timsi]

If the sales people compared the long term cost of owning with the Redweek rentals, they would not sell much I guess.

Ethics Code of the American Resort Development Association Adopted by the Board of Directors on June 9, 2021. :

"8. Avoidance of False and Deceptive Statements. Statements made by the
Member in connection with Member Activity shall not:
a. Convey false, untrue, deceptive, or misleading information
through any means; or
b. Omit material information without which the information
provided would be rendered deceptive or misleading."

 

[SueDonJ]

@rickandcindy23 and @TUGBrian:

FYI this is the language on my Marriott (Barony Beach Club) invoice that's just under the box showing the two payment options, the one with the $10 ARDA-ROC contribution and the one without:

>>PAC contributions are political contributions not deductible for Federal income tax purposes. You may refuse to contribute or contribute more or less without reprisal or otherwise affecting your membership rights. Federal law provides that PAC contributions may only be made by U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens (green card holders). Contributions from corporations (including contributions made on a corporate credit card) are prohibited.<<

I don't know if Vistana invoices say something similar anywhere but the laws still apply. Hold them to that "without reprisal or otherwise affecting ..." legalese.

 

[rickandcindy23]

The people on the phone at Vistana do not understand the issue and the computer system doesn't allow them to book my weeks for 2024 without payment of the $5.00. All of my statements show $5.00 less than I paid for 2024.

$1,161.24 paid for 2023, didn't pay the $5.00 fee, deducted that fee
$1,161.24 paid for 2024, the $5.00 automatically deducted for the 2023 $5.00 ARDA fee
My accounts are showing as $1,156.24 paid for 2024

Phone calls to Vistana will require me to pay $5.00. There is no getting out of it.

 

[SueDonJ]

FYI, we've been talking about the "voluntary contribution" being $5.00 but on my Marriott Barony invoice this year $10.00 is suggested.

 

[rickandcindy23]

FYI, we've been talking about the "voluntary contribution" being $5.00 but on my Marriott Barony invoice this year $10.00 is suggested.

Which is such a money grab for ARDA-ROC.

 

[pedro47]

What is the former Wyndham TS salesperson opinion on this thread ??.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I am still trying to understand if ARDA is embedded in this $20 fee for KOR? or somewhere else?

** KOR Foundation and Trust
As a Maui property Owner, you may have an interest in supporting civic and charitable programs that benefit the community, including timeshare Owners. The One Ohana Foundation is an affiliated nonprofit Hawaii Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(4) corporation that promotes good community policies and programs. The One Ohana Charitable Trust is an affiliated Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) affiliated trust that promotes charitable programs and projects for the betterment of Maui citizens. A $20 donation is voluntary and will be distributed 34% to the Foundation (nondeductible) and 66% to the Trust (deductible, please contact your independent tax advisor). Please note, One Ohana Foundation and One Ohana Charitable Trust have changed their names to Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation and Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Charitable Trust. If Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation & Trust appears on your statement and you do not wish to contribute, please reduce your overall annual payment by $20. Donors are not disclosed on public reports.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I am still trying to understand if ARDA is embedded in this $20 fee for KOR? or somewhere else?

** KOR Foundation and Trust
As a Maui property Owner, you may have an interest in supporting civic and charitable programs that benefit the community, including timeshare Owners. The One Ohana Foundation is an affiliated nonprofit Hawaii Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(4) corporation that promotes good community policies and programs. The One Ohana Charitable Trust is an affiliated Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) affiliated trust that promotes charitable programs and projects for the betterment of Maui citizens. A $20 donation is voluntary and will be distributed 34% to the Foundation (nondeductible) and 66% to the Trust (deductible, please contact your independent tax advisor). Please note, One Ohana Foundation and One Ohana Charitable Trust have changed their names to Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation and Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Charitable Trust. If Ka'anapali Ocean Resort (KOR) Foundation & Trust appears on your statement and you do not wish to contribute, please reduce your overall annual payment by $20. Donors are not disclosed on public reports.

Good question. I will donate groceries to a local food bank/ church on Maui.

 

[dioxide45]

I really would give some money to an organization that represented individual owners and had a BOD that was nominated by and voted in by actual owners and there was a “membership” per say in such an organization. RIght now there is only one token “Owner Representative” on the BOD and I wonder who actually selects that person? There are some things that the ARDA-ROC has successfully lobbied against that helped owners. That was the mentioned possible increase in the TSO calculation of occupancy taxes in Hawaii being based off 100% of the maintenance fee instead of the current 50%. Certainly don’t expect the ARDA-ROC to lobby against consumer protections in the timeshare industry.

 

[daviator]

Good question. I will donate groceries to a local food bank/ church on Maui.

That’s nice, but there is value to us in the political points that are scored when the One Ohana Foundation, representing the Westin properties on Maui, does good things for the community. The three properties on Maui were very controversial when they were first approved and built and continue to be used as an example by many of everything that is wrong with Maui. So I think there is value in donating to an organization that will do good things as well as buy us some good PR with the local community. It may help the next time they are trying to find another sneaky way to ratchet up our property taxes. It reminds locals that we are part of their community too.

I don’t think the any of the One Ohana money goes to ARDA. I certainly hope not.

An individual donation to a food bank may help someone, but doesn’t do anything for the negative perception that many have of our resorts.

 

[pedro47]

Back in the day, for some governmental agencies it costs between 3 to 5 percent to issue a refund.. Processing Fees, I think they call it.

Personally, I felt liked someone was just to lazy to process the claim request.

Suggestion only, add a box to the maintenance fee statement. Contribute to ARDA yes or no. IMHO.