[ 2021 ] Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2021 [MERGED]

[HitchHiker71]

From my conversation everything about the accounts will be separate- however the question that should be asked is if you use points from both buckets for the reservation - which bucket does the HK, GC, transaction come from.

edited to add:
well i guess if I read things would be clear. From the website:

• Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your Non-VIP Eligible Points.
• Available housekeeping credits or reservation transactions on your Non-VIP Eligible Points may not be utilized with your VIP Eligible Points.

Yes, I was just going to say this myself, it's on the website - in the Important Information section - that for reasons that surpass all understanding - is not expanded by default...

 

[VacayKat]

Yes, I was just going to say this myself, it's on the website - in the Important Information section - that for reasons that surpass all understanding - is not expanded by default...

View attachment 37744

Seem to be having a bit of a mind-meld there, lol

 

[Eric B]

It's not really a change - but rather a compliance issue coming into full swing. For years all of the documentation for CWP owners has either directly stated that VIP benefits don't apply toward resale points - or any verbiage either way is just plain omitted altogether - leaving it as a perk. The fact that Wyndham is now enforcing the policy directive via the online systems many years after stating the policies in the documentation isn't surprising. Many of us have expected a change like this to come eventually - though admittedly I didn't think it would come this quickly - I figured it would align with the next iteration of changes to the VIP program itself - but that's the game we play when it comes to speculation - it's anyone's guess at the end of the day.

Here's what it actually says about resale points in the member's directory for 2018-2019 on page 40 in the section on Eligibility Requirements-
"Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility."

The sole place that I can find that puts a limitation on eligibility for use under the VIP program is footnote 4 on page 242, which applies to how many guest confirmations you get as a VIPP as being 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points, explaining that "Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its aliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see Eligibility Requirements above)."

The fact that they needed to include footnote 4, which I believe would have been put in place when they eliminated unlimited guest certificates for VIPP owners, in order to express a limitation on what points are eligible for use under the VIP program is a strong indication that that limitation did not exist generally throughout the program. That is strongly supported by the practices they have followed for decades of allowing use of resale points with VIP benefits.

All that being said, I fully understand that Wyndham has the power and the right to make changes to the program at any point Wyndham wants to. I am okay with the changes in general, though I would prefer it if they were explained more clearly and explicitly so that everyone understands them (and so that Wyndham's sales force doesn't misstate them). Where I do part ways with Wyndham and some of the posts I've read is with the assertion that this is not a change, but instead enforcing an existing rule - that is just spin and puffery. If it weren't spin, they wouldn't feel the need to provide complimentary points (however they will be doing that) as the spoonful of sugar to help this medicine go down. That's why I titled this thread "Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2022" when I posted it yesterday. I stand by that interpretation that this is a major change to the program.

 

[VacayKat]

Here's what it actually says about resale points in the member's directory for 2018-2019 on page 40 in the section on Eligibility Requirements-
"Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility."

The sole place that I can find that puts a limitation on eligibility for use under the VIP program is footnote 4 on page 242, which applies to how many guest confirmations you get as a VIPP as being 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points, explaining that "Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its aliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see Eligibility Requirements above)."

The fact that they needed to include footnote 4, which I believe would have been put in place when they eliminated unlimited guest certificates for VIPP owners, in order to express a limitation on what points are eligible for use under the VIP program is a strong indication that that limitation did not exist generally throughout the program. That is strongly supported by the practices they have followed for decades of allowing use of resale points with VIP benefits.

All that being said, I fully understand that Wyndham has the power and the right to make changes to the program at any point Wyndham wants to. I am okay with the changes in general, though I would prefer it if they were explained more clearly and explicitly so that everyone understands them (and so that Wyndham's sales force doesn't misstate them). Where I do part ways with Wyndham and some of the posts I've read is with the assertion that this is not a change, but instead enforcing an existing rule - that is just spin and puffery. If it weren't spin, they wouldn't feel the need to provide complimentary points (however they will be doing that) as the spoonful of sugar to help this medicine go down. That's why I titled this thread "Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2022" when I posted it yesterday. I stand by that interpretation that this is a major change to the program.

Agreed. And like I said, my resale has has VIP perks for roughly 6 months, so they’ve continued to push the perks of VIP on resale owners even as they were likely moving to eliminate them.

 

[Ty1on]

Agreed. And like I said, my resale has has VIP perks for roughly 6 months, so they’ve continued to push the perks of VIP on resale owners even as they were likely moving to eliminate them.

There is a nearly 100% probability that the sales people have not been informed in any way that they were working on this change. Sometimes they lie, sometimes they just don't know.

 

[Eric B]

Yes, I was just going to say this myself, it's on the website - in the Important Information section - that for reasons that surpass all understanding - is not expanded by default...

View attachment 37744

One other item that isn't as clear as it should be is the discussion of "borrowing" in the first two bullets. The term "Borrowing Points" is a term of art in Club Wyndham Plus that is actually defined on page 249 of the owner's directory (2018-2019) to mean using points from the next Use Year in the current one. Is the "borrowing" of points from one of the buckets limited to ones from the next Use Year or is it being extended to include movement of points from the VIP-eligible bucket to the non-VIP-eligible bucket?

 

[dgalati]

Agreed. And like I said, my resale has has VIP perks for roughly 6 months, so they’ve continued to push the perks of VIP on resale owners even as they were likely moving to eliminate them.

Its a sales strategy that has worked well. Maybe write Mike Brown and explain how you were hoodwinked into buying and believing it was a benefit. Please feel free to post his reply.

 

[dgalati]

There is a nearly 100% probability that the sales people have not been informed in any way that they were working on this change. Sometimes they lie, sometimes they just don't know.

I doubt that the sales team is not informed. They are working every angle to sell points its their job and livelihood. Believing otherwise is just nonsense.

 

[VAlegacy]

Glad I never did a PIC.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I doubt that the sales team is not informed. They are working every angle to sell points its their job and livelihood. Believing otherwise is just nonsense.

I disagree based upon my own experience working within and managing sales oriented technology teams and organizations. The frameworks used for successful technical product management also specifically dictate that sales or any other production oriented operational division should in no way be informed of any planned changes until the changes are slated to move into production. To do otherwise invites chaos on multiple levels, including but not limited to excuses employed by the sales organization for not meeting quotas/goals. If a change is being planned that would in any way even potentially negatively impact sales goals - which is the lifeblood of most companies - it will not be shared with anyone in the sales organization by design.


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[dgalati]

Sounds like the incessant postings by @dgalati had the bad effect they were intended to have. Those of you that had spoken with Wyndham management at the annual meetings might consider contacting the ones you have phone numbers for.

Contact Wyndham management for what? To say VIP owners want to keep playing a loophole that was clearly spelled out in the directory as a non benefit. Do you really think my posts were intended to have a bad effect? I was calling out abuse that took away availability for owners to book for personal use. A lot of VIP owners just didn't want to see the writing on the wall.

 

[jwalk03]

I disagree based upon my own experience working within and managing sales oriented technology teams and organizations. The frameworks used for successful technical product management also specifically dictate that sales or any other production oriented operational division should in no way be informed of any planned changes until the changes are slated to move into production. To do otherwise invites chaos on multiple levels, including but not limited to excuses employed by the sales organization for not meeting quotas/goals. If a change is being planned that would in any way even potentially negatively impact sales goals - which is the lifeblood of most companies - it will not be shared with anyone in the sales organization by design.


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Agree completely with this. I work for a large corporation and the absolute last people we tell anything about product changes to is the front line staff. As soon as they know it leaks to the media, so everything is kept tented until then, with only those that need to know granted access under the tent! Everyone allowed under the tent also has to sign binding non-disclosure agreements.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Here's what it actually says about resale points in the member's directory for 2018-2019 on page 40 in the section on Eligibility Requirements-
"Purchases of ownership interests made from private individuals or resale companies will not count toward the total points required for VIP eligibility."

The sole place that I can find that puts a limitation on eligibility for use under the VIP program is footnote 4 on page 242, which applies to how many guest confirmations you get as a VIPP as being 15 per 1,000,000 eligible points, explaining that "Eligible points are points associated with ownership interests purchased directly through Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its aliates, Bonus Points and PIC Points (see Eligibility Requirements above)."

The fact that they needed to include footnote 4, which I believe would have been put in place when they eliminated unlimited guest certificates for VIPP owners, in order to express a limitation on what points are eligible for use under the VIP program is a strong indication that that limitation did not exist generally throughout the program. That is strongly supported by the practices they have followed for decades of allowing use of resale points with VIP benefits.

All that being said, I fully understand that Wyndham has the power and the right to make changes to the program at any point Wyndham wants to. I am okay with the changes in general, though I would prefer it if they were explained more clearly and explicitly so that everyone understands them (and so that Wyndham's sales force doesn't misstate them). Where I do part ways with Wyndham and some of the posts I've read is with the assertion that this is not a change, but instead enforcing an existing rule - that is just spin and puffery. If it weren't spin, they wouldn't feel the need to provide complimentary points (however they will be doing that) as the spoonful of sugar to help this medicine go down. That's why I titled this thread "Major Change to Wyndham VIP Program in Email 7/19/2022" when I posted it yesterday. I stand by that interpretation that this is a major change to the program.

The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME.


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[VacayKat]

There is a nearly 100% probability that the sales people have not been informed in any way that they were working on this change. Sometimes they lie, sometimes they just don't know.

And that’s on the company.

 

[VacayKat]

The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME.


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Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.

 

[dgalati]

The membership directory prior to the current directory contained verbiage that explicitly stated that VIP benefits do not apply to resale points. You know this better than most, having explicitly stated this repeatedly in your own posts. The current directory omitted this statement and only included the resale statements with respect to VIP level eligibility. Wyndham likely omitted the statement from the current directory to avoid taking continual heat over this topic from non-VIP owners until they could actually do something about it. I don’t disagree that it is a major change - but it is a compliance change regardless - bringing the online systems into compliance can sometimes result in minor changes and sometimes result in major changes, in this instance for a very small proportion of the ownership base which is overly represented here on TUG IME.


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It may have been a very small proportion of owners but I feel it was a very large amount of points. One poster said he used 130 GC's.. This abuse was stopped because it freed up availability and saved Wyndham $. Think about how much was saved by eliminating someone that used 130 free HK's at $159 each.

 

[VacayKat]

Did anyone happen to notice the owner education sessions? Preview on 8/3 and post launch on 8/17. Guessing they would be useful to attend. Though would be helpful if they put a time zone…..

 

[dgalati]

[

Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.

You are grasping straws here. It is not listed as a benefit and never was one. Just because sales sold it as a benefit doesn't make it one. That's unless you have it written in your purchase agreement as a benefit.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.

Am omission leaves it entirely up to interpretation. It in no way defines the opposite assumption. The membership directory went from explicitly stating that VIP benefits never applied toward resale points, to not saying anything either way. Couple this fact with the statement that the entire VIP program is subject to change at the sole discretion of Wyndham with no required notice, up to and including termination of the entire program itself - and it doesn’t take a genius to see the writing on the wall.

It was always a question of when not if. Especially when we consider that the current CEO came from another timeshare company where many of these limitations for resale were already in place and working - including the points buckets we are now seeing - so he is simply implementing a known quantity here at Wyndham. This is my own perspective to be clear - but the dots connect up easily IMHO.


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[VacayKat]

Am omission leaves it entirely up to interpretation. It in no way defines the opposite assumption. The membership directory went from explicitly stating that VIP benefits never applied toward resale points, to not saying anything either way. Couple this fact with the statement that the entire VIP program is subject to change at the sole discretion of Wyndham with no required notice, up to and including termination of the entire program itself - and it doesn’t take a genius to see the writing on the wall.

It was always a question of when not if. Especially when we consider that the current CEO came from another timeshare company where many of these limitations for resale were already in place and working - including the points buckets we are now seeing - so he is simply implementing a known quantity here at Wyndham. This is my own perspective to be clear - but the dots connect up easily IMHO.


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While I don’t think it does take a genius, I think it does take having all the info. I think that is hard for newer folks to find. And I think in part it hurts a little more for folks who were never given all the history either in contracts or by sales.
Remind me how long the new guy has been CEO?

 

[paxsarah]

Ok - so if they omitted it, and it isn’t in contracts, then wouldn’t that seem to be admission that they intended to have it work as it was working? Especially for folks who purchased after that 2018-2019 book was published? How would one have access to waht the rules used to be? And would the current rule not supersede earlier rules?
Just asking- not really sure on answers to this one.

It doesn’t really matter why. All it takes is Wyndham saying “This is the rule now” to change it. They’ve said it, so it is. Deconstructing the history doesn’t change what they can do right this minute.

 

[HitchHiker71]

While I don’t think it does take a genius, I think it does take having all the info. I think that is hard for newer folks to find. And I think in part it hurts a little more for folks who were never given all the history either in contracts or by sales.
Remind me how long the new guy has been CEO?

I do feel for you. It really does suck for those who are generally a trusting type of person especially given the deceptive nature of the timeshare sales industry as a whole. The entire timeshare sales industry was and in many respects still is built to take advantage of good people’s trusting nature, along with a plethora of other strategies meant to manipulate people both in groups and 1:1 using trained personas.

The CEO has been with Wyndham since April 2017. Prior to that he was at HGVC for over eight years. Screenshot of his LinkedIn job history below:

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[55plus]

Did anyone happen to notice the owner education sessions? Preview on 8/3 and post launch on 8/17. Guessing they would be useful to attend. Though would be helpful if they put a time zone…..

I registered for it yesterday and received an email confirmation.

 

[Silverdollar]

Glad I never did a PIC.

This does not affect anything having to do with PIC Plus. It only applies to resales. PIC Plus points will be treated the same as before. I confirmed this with Owner Care today. If anyone hears otherwise, please let us know.

 

[chapjim]

Did anyone happen to notice the owner education sessions? Preview on 8/3 and post launch on 8/17. Guessing they would be useful to attend. Though would be helpful if they put a time zone…..

They better give the presenter a script that is more clearly written than the emails and letters being sent out or you'll come out more confused than ever.