[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[jebloomquist]

Here is a crude example to illustrate how cancel-rebook pours points into an account. Forget the credit pool. For this discussion, it is a red herring.

Even though Ron tried to explain to you how 2 million annual points per year can end up with reservation that use 8 million points, you didn't seem to get it, and went back to your cancel/rebook rant.

ANY ACCOUNT CAN DO THIS REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL IT IS.

Take an account with only 100,000 points, obviously not a VIP account. In year 1 the owner credit pools all 100,000 points. In year 2 the owner credit pools years 3 and 4. Therefore, in year 2 the owner has 100,000 points available from year 1 in the credit pool, 100,000 regular points available from year 2, 100,000 points available in the credit pool from year 3, and 100,000 points available in the credit pool from year 4. So, at this point the owner has 400,000 available points, and can make reservations totaling up to 400,000 with an account that only has an annual allotment of 100,000 points.

There is no need to do any cancel/rebook to do this.

Does this help?

Jim

 

[bnoble]

I will say that just as you describe your grad students as morons for doing what they did. it takes a moron to do what I do

You misunderstand. They were morons for leaving a plastic, 3-D printed master key laying on the ground...the original scheme was quite admirable. That's why they all eventually earned Doctorates. The key to earning a Ph.D. is doing something your research advisor thinks isn't possible. That's what all of my best students have done.

 

[ronparise]

You misunderstand. They were morons for leaving a plastic, 3-D printed master key laying on the ground...the original scheme was quite admirable. That's why they all eventually earned Doctorates. The key to earning a Ph.D. is doing something your research advisor thinks isn't possible. That's what all of my best students have done.

I bought my first 385000 wyndham points 6 years ago, and my wife thought it was the dumbest thing I had ever done. She advised that I had better find a way to rent this $hi! .. So I did

I posted what I was trying to do here and on the now defunct Wyndham owners forum. And the advice I got in both places was It cant be done. Its too hard, theres too much competition, Only VIPs can make any money. Too much risk, too little reward.. .. I went ahead anyway and did what my advisers said couldnt be done>>> You can call Doctor Ron now:rofl:

on second thought, maybe we should wait until wyndham finishes reviewing my account

 

[Braindead]

If you can believe Steve Holmes the ceo, they want to take back more inventory than Ovation is giving them Heres what he said in the first quarter 2106 earnings call

"we have not gotten that kind of response that we were thinking we might see on Ovation not as many people have taken us up on the offering, but we're going to continue to refine it and improve it and we think it will be nice way to get people to recycle out and leave gracefully."

Still amazing how many owners aren't aware of Ovation. A lot of small point contracts and weeks on eBay that cost owners to sell. I suppose Wyndham doesn't want to pay to send information via mail to all owners. I bet a lot of owners have never set up their account online.

 

[travelwyndham]

Is it legal to suspend these accounts

Hello, I was wondering about the suspended accounts and I just don’t see how it can be “LEGAL” to not allow owners to access their accounts when they have already paid for them and are current on all their dues/fees? I had an audit done on my account a few years ago and was told about it in advance and I had access to my account during the entire audit. Which means that they CAN do the audit and let owners have access to their accounts. I think that might be using the audit as an excuse to suspend accounts, but they are failing to mention that they can do the audit without suspending the account. Isn’t what they are actually doing, considered to be THEFT: The felonious taking and removing of property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

 

[CO skier]

Even though Ron tried to explain to you how 2 million annual points per year can end up with reservation that use 8 million points, you didn't seem to get it, and went back to your cancel/rebook rant.

ANY ACCOUNT CAN DO THIS REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL IT IS.

Oh, I get it, but it seemed that it confused some people into believing the credit pool was the only possible explanation.

Why are not more regular owners, such as you describe, caught up in this round-up?

I mean, really, the example you give is classic credit pooling. After all these years, Wyndham does not know that using the credit pool can result in multiples of a current year’s allotment? Possible, I guess, but I would not put any money on it.

So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason. Someone who does not do any credit pooling, but uses cancel-rebook a lot, might find the illustration informative, because I made certain from the beginning of the post that credit pooling was in no way utilized to book almost 7 million points of reservations using a 2 million points account.

I am sure that there is a lot of private chatter amongst the megarenters regarding these developments and we only get the sound bites. If a 10M points owner just makes reservations and utilizes the VIP discount very rarely, they probably passed the Wyndham scan. My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.

 

[jebloomquist]

My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.

Could Wyndham freeze accounts, not unfreeze them, and still require that monthly maintenance fees be paid?

Talk about a potential lawsuit. "Wyndham, you have frozen my account. You can't show me when, where, or how I didn't follow your rules. And now, you insist that I must still pay my monthly maintenance fees, or you will take further action. If you aren't going to unfreeze my account, what further actions can you take?"

If accounts aren't unfrozen soon, "taxation without representation." What happened then?

Jim

 

[CO skier]

Could Wyndham freeze accounts, not unfreeze them, and still require that monthly maintenance fees be paid?

Talk about a potential lawsuit. "Wyndham, you have frozen my account. You can't show me when, where, or how I didn't follow your rules. And now, you insist that I must still pay my monthly maintenance fees, or you will take further action. If you aren't going to unfreeze my account, what further actions can you take?"

If accounts aren't unfrozen soon, "taxation without representation." What happened then?

Jim

Complain to the management, but remember that the management has to represent all owners.

 

[travelwyndham]

However, the promise of discounts and free upgrades is why a lot of owners spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy silver, gold, platinum and presidential ownerships in the first place. If a person buys a first class ticket and then gets to their expensive seat to find out that the leg room is exactly the same and they have to pay for their meals… everything same as standard, then how is that fair? What if; every time they fly, they use “mileage points” to fly first class, and because they are frequent flyers they also get front of the line… Is it unfair for them to take advantage of these deals? Didn’t they “EARN” that right to do so? If I buy a front seat at a concert and spend a lot of money to do so, and another individual decides to save their money and buy the back row, but then they find that they can’t see anything… How is that unfair? Why be mad at the person who dug deep into their pockets and paid the big bucks for something with perks? It would be absurd if the person who paid for the front row, decided to sit in the back row just because they sat in the front row every time and now they felt guilty.

 

[OutSkiing]

Oh, I get it, but it seemed that it confused some people into believing the credit pool was the only possible explanation.

Why are not more regular owners, such as you describe, caught up in this round-up?

I mean, really, the example you give is classic credit pooling. After all these years, Wyndham does not know that using the credit pool can result in multiples of a current year’s allotment? Possible, I guess, but I would not put any money on it.

So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason. Someone who does not do any credit pooling, but uses cancel-rebook a lot, might find the illustration informative, because I made certain from the beginning of the post that credit pooling was in no way utilized to book almost 7 million points of reservations using a 2 million points account.

I am sure that there is a lot of private chatter amongst the megarenters regarding these developments and we only get the sound bites. If a 10M points owner just makes reservations and utilizes the VIP discount very rarely, they probably passed the Wyndham scan. My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.

Its the other way around. Cancel / rebook has always been available and even encouraged by Wyndham sales sharks.

The ability to put canceled points into the credit pool is new. Until that recent change, canceled points HAD TO be used during that same year as the original reservation. Now canceled points can go back to the pool for use again and again. When canceling resulted in the guaranteed loss of those points by the end of the year it was illogical to bring future year points forward into this year. But now they can be recycled over and over making your cancel/rebook/repeat scenario even more practical.

I do agree with travelwyndham's point that freezing someone's property for any extended period cannot be legal. Its kind of like barring the door to a high-rise condo building preventing the owners from getting into their own homes. All because you think one of them has cheated. I think they will learn that nobody cheated but Wyndham policies allowed this.

Bob

 

[ronparise]

Oh, I get it, but it seemed that it confused some people into believing the credit pool was the only possible explanation.

Why are not more regular owners, such as you describe, caught up in this round-up?

I mean, really, the example you give is classic credit pooling. After all these years, Wyndham does not know that using the credit pool can result in multiples of a current year’s allotment? Possible, I guess, but I would not put any money on it.

So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason. Someone who does not do any credit pooling, but uses cancel-rebook a lot, might find the illustration informative, because I made certain from the beginning of the post that credit pooling was in no way utilized to book almost 7 million points of reservations using a 2 million points account.

I am sure that there is a lot of private chatter amongst the megarenters regarding these developments and we only get the sound bites. If a 10M points owner just makes reservations and utilizes the VIP discount very rarely, they probably passed the Wyndham scan. My point was that, if a 2M owner never credit pools but repeatedly uses cancel-rebook-upgrade as I illustrated, they could and probably have a frozen account, and it may prove difficult to get it unfrozen.

You are quite right cancelling re booking and upgrading can create more reservations than might be expected but I don't believe it's the number of reservations that triggered these audits. It's the number of points

In your example you started with 2 million points and turned them into reservations worth 8 million points

Now do this.
Cancel all those reservations. They go back to 2 million points

Compare that to the way my account looked. I own contracts with 2.5 million points. And I have reservations which if I cancel them will generate more than 10 million points

Focus on the number of points actually in the reservations and the number of points owned. In your example there is balance: 2 million points owned and 2 million in reservations.

 

[CO skier]

Now do this.
Cancel all those reservations. They go back to 2 million points

Compare that to the way my account looked. I own contracts with 2.5 million points. And I have reservations which if I cancel them will generate more than 10 million points

... and those 10 million points would go back to the credit pool where they came from just as my 2 million points would go back to the current year.

I am not worried about how the auditors look at the accounts. If I did much of any cancel-rebook, I would be worried about the auditors looking at the account at all.

If, in the end, it all passes muster or not, then c' est la vie.

 

[Bigrob]

So I presented a scenario involving an advanced cancel-rebook scheme as an additional, alternative explanation for why some accounts might have been frozen, and for good reason.

As Ron has explained, this has nothing to do with it. It is a red herring. They are adding up the points used in reservations - the net points, not the "gross value of the reservations" that you are obsessed with - to determine the accounts that appear to have imbalances. And there can be very rational explanations for why that is the case.

1) It is possible to have up to 5 years worth of points in an account, as points credit pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 could all be in an account. This is absent any adjustments made due to issues with reservations, etc.

2) Adjustments may be made from time to time due to issues that have to be addressed - for example reservations that were not honored, or were interrupted in some way, etc.

3) Transfers in and out of an account may result in additional points remaining in the account. For example I moved 10-12 contracts from one of my accounts to the other. The one they were moved from kept the points that were tied up in reservations. So guess what? One account appears to have too many points - and the other one doesn't have enough. Wyndham has not been trying to help me reclaim the missing points in the other account though.

 

[jumoe]

I also have had my account frozen

I am almost identical to johnstonga, except almost double. I own 2.166M. I have pooled all years currently possible. I rent 1M from Wyndham every year @ $8 per K.

I do use all 30 of my guest certs. I do take advantage of all VIP discounts/upgrades.

I called owner services to 're-rack' some of my "cancelled points" that should have gone back into a "pool" but ended up as regular points. I currently show 1.068M points with a Sept 30 2016 exp date when my only contract with 9/31 use year is 154K. (Hm, this should not be possible, right?)

2 days later my account was frozen. I sent them an email as directed. I have not talked with them yet.

Has no one received a call back yet? Or, are those that have talked with wyndham just not posting??

 

[CO skier]

As Ron has explained, this has nothing to do with it. It is a red herring. They are adding up the points used in reservations - the net points, not the "gross value of the reservations" that you are obsessed with - to determine the accounts that appear to have imbalances. And there can be very rational explanations for why that is the case.

1) It is possible to have up to 5 years worth of points in an account, as points credit pooled in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 could all be in an account. This is absent any adjustments made due to issues with reservations, etc.

2) Adjustments may be made from time to time due to issues that have to be addressed - for example reservations that were not honored, or were interrupted in some way, etc.

3) Transfers in and out of an account may result in additional points remaining in the account. For example I moved 10-12 contracts from one of my accounts to the other. The one they were moved from kept the points that were tied up in reservations. So guess what? One account appears to have too many points - and the other one doesn't have enough. Wyndham has not been trying to help me reclaim the missing points in the other account though.

Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?

But why then, are the lawyers involved and suggesting that owners may want to get a lawyer of their own?

 

[Bigrob]

Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?

I worry about the length of time it will take Wyndham to perform the audit, and I'm sure everyone else has the same concern.

 

[Bigrob]

Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?

But why then, are the lawyers involved and suggesting that owners may want to get a lawyer of their own?

Ah, you edited your reply as I was responding.

I can't speak for others, but it was never suggested to me that I may want or need a lawyer. I can certainly understand why Wyndham would need to have counsel involved if they are taking a unilateral action that adversely impacts the largest owners, that would only be prudent.

 

[ronparise]

Well, then, no one has anything to worry about, right?

But why then, are the lawyers involved and suggesting that owners may want to get a lawyer of their own?

That's another question altogether if it make you feel better I am very much worried

Much like an irs audit. I was audited years ago I knew my return was correct. I had all my records, I had declared all my income and I had receipts for all my expenses but I knew that paying no taxes on several hundred thousand in gross income looked fishy. Hell yes I was worried. As it turned out my return was accepted as filed

With this Wyndham thing. I know I didn't do anything wrong and more than that, I know what I did and I know it explains the imbalance seen in my accounts. And yet I'm still worried.

 

[CO skier]

I can't speak for others, but it was never suggested to me that I may want or need a lawyer. I can certainly understand why Wyndham would need to have counsel involved if they are taking a unilateral action that adversely impacts the largest owners, that would only be prudent.

Below is the post from another thread with the lawyer reference that got my attention from the beginning, and led me to believe that something more than the credit pool was up, but maybe it is all much ado about nothing:

A wyndham lawyer called with an owner care person and ask me if i wanted my own lawyer present with the inference i did something wrong

Only thing i could gleam was they were looking at a report that added up bookings. So if you have alot of turnover, you could make the list

 

[CO skier]

And yet I'm still worried.

This thread has proved so informative. I am sure that those affected are now wondering well ... is it just the credit pool ... or should I be worried?

 

[Slinger]

When my cable, Internet, cell phone or satellite goes out for a day or few, I refuse to pay for days service that I wasn't able to use.

Why are owners not doing that with Wyndham? Say I pay $100/mo in MFs. You remove a week access to my account. Now I send you $75 this month. (Rough math for example's sake)


Thoughts? Am I just off my rocker crazy?

 

[vacationhopeful]

And Wyndham corporate has been sending checks covering the VIP discount and upgrade costs to each resort's HOA for HOW MANY YEARS?

The CPAs and auditors will make a fortune in OT and consulting fees ....

And then there is the NYSE ....

And the word of the day, should it be "PONZI"?

added: IMHO and non-legal & personal opinion, the timeshare owners did NOT alter, modify, hi-jack or damaged Wyndham computers or their property.

 

[OutSkiing]

And Wyndham corporate has been sending checks covering the VIP discount and upgrade costs to each resort's HOA for HOW MANY YEARS?

Is that how discounts and upgrades are balanced out? I've been wondering if Wyndham foists some of the burden off on the HOAs using an excuse of 'vacancy'. After all an upgrade occurs because the next nicer unit is still available in the 60/45 day window.

There was a line item in the financial statements reviewed during Wyndham Annual meeting that could have been these payments but I didn't think it was big enough.

Bob

 

[vacationhopeful]

<snip>
There was a line item in the financial statements reviewed during Wyndham Annual meeting that could have been these payments but I didn't think it was big enough.

Bob

Bob,

And who is running, programming and doing the accounting and balancing ... writing the checks? And the audits? And is the voting majority at almost ALL WYNDHAM resorts?

It is amazing ...

So go look at the NON-Wyndham controlled resorts ...

There are 5 Shawnee Resort's HOAs. Shawnee has rci resort number of 0001. Yes, the FIRST RCI affliated resort. Built in the dark ages. In a ski area in Northeastern PA. Right off (less than 2 miles) from the I-80 exit running directly into NYC. The resort is on the Delaware River and the original builder/developer/manager also opened a nearby SKI AREA. It has an indoor BIG ASS POOL, decent basketball court, nice workout gym. Almost every unit in the place is 2/2 ... almost all are duplex townshouse style ... no condo except for the WYndham built 1 building ...spread over acres of ground. My deeded fixed weeks HOA fees are UNDER $700 per interval. And can/do/could fetch during PRIME season 166,000 to 175,000 Wyndham points.

The Wyndham managed HOAs seem to COST so much more to run ... places where the COST OF LIVING is way less, labor is way less, better/less hostile climates costs way less.

The reservation computer system, 1-800 number, autopay, etc are all covered by OUR PAID CWP and CWA fees. Not our MFs.

 

[bestresort]

No doubt this is a gross abuse of the system

What you describe does indeed happen but it doesn't manufacture points. (It manufactures reservations but not points) If you look at an account that has been used in this way you will see lots of reservations and the points that were used to make them. If it was a 300000 point reservation and a 100000 point reservation that were used to produce one 50000 point reservation what the auditor will see is 50000 points used and 350000 points available to use. The total of points used and points available will still equal the points owned

No doubt this is a gross abuse of the system but it's not what we are talking about here. What they are looking for today are accounts where they don't add up

The gross abuse is wyndham charging an elderly person 20 k for a 63 k point contract when they can get same thing on ebay for free.

Wyndham would have ZERO sales without the gold/platitnum system.

So the real scam is WYNDHAM giving discounts to people that buy from WYNDHaM PAY TO PLAY IF YOU WILL

To get to platinum someone has to pay 400 K and they give you discounts then make it harder to obtain said discounts.

Everything points back to Wyndham.

Yes, and if there is abuse,it requiresa systme when wyndham is involved in the front end, middle end,andendof the life cycle of acontract.

Id love to find a lawyer that would take this on contingency.

The whole WYNDHSCAM CORP would tumble

I have another suggestion, when at a resort, and you a sales presentation going on, tell the mark to run from the crooks