2015 Program Changes [merged]

[Bigrob]

That is what I was wondering. From the posts here (I still have not received the email!) I did not see it state that the regular points have ARP, just that they are returned to the same use year. Was that assumed somewhere in the chain of thread or in the original email from Wyndham?

I can see once they do this rollout, that benefits will change. I am thinking if they can trace points to the contract level, them VIP discounts or late credit pooling could be in the firing line for resale points. Not sure what they will do to us lowly non-VIP resale owners.

Just speculation of course.

There was nothing in the email about the points being associated back to the contract or credit pool they came from. That was information that I received when I called in.

I think there will be more significant system changes required to limit the ability to use non-VIP points for discounts, because at this time the discounts are governed at the account level. The "price" offered in points is based on the account and only one offer is presented. I'm not sure that is high on the priority list because the ability to use VIP benefits on the full account is one of the things touted heavily by sales. FYI, they already have - and have had - traceability to the points for a long time.

At one point I thought a change they might make would have been to make cancelled points ineligible for VIP benefits. In this manner sales could continue to tout the benefits of VIP to "apply to the full account" but might conveniently "forget" to mention that you couldn't use the benefit over and over again on cancel/rebooks. This change obviates that concern. I suspect a change of that magnitude would have required a longer lead time for the fallout.

Regarding availability; it is NEVER going to improve if Wyndham continues to grab and hold literally ALL of the inventory via Extra Holidays. Last night I had someone staying at Bonnet Creek who wanted to stay an extra night. There of course were no units available to book. When I called the resort, I asked, "don't you have any backup units available in case of maintenance issues, etc."? to which she said, "oh yeah, we have units. In fact the guests could have stayed in the same unit they were in, it's available. It would be $249/night."

 

[vacationhopeful]

....Regarding availability; it is NEVER going to improve if Wyndham continues to grab and hold literally ALL of the inventory via Extra Holidays. ...

Any really PRIME time inventory within 60 days of checkin has VALUE only as a rental to Extra Holidays or for "targets" in the Discovery Program. Least we forget, the Discovery Program who get "short stays" (3 or 4 nights during Prime time) ... found them at Royal Vista during late Feb and Mar - each cancelled reservation would become 2+ Discovery pigeons' vacation stays.

And it will get worst - as the economy is improves, MORE aggressive sales tactics, expanded internet selling/acceptance.

I own for ARP and while I have covered my costs over the last years ... my baby boomer generation is growing larger and retiring. Who of my generation is still skiing and enjoying ice & snow? Fewer every year! But the warmth of Florida - Wyndham has grown only in Orlando area ... not Pompano nor anywhere on the Gulf side.

PS I have been looking at the non-Wyndham area resorts as new turf to buy. I don't think many of the Snowbird crew would considered oceanfront stays at Myrtle Beach to be warm and inviting (indoor pools have to be gotten to) and those catwalks at Ocean Blvd would be "interesting" in icy conditions.

 

[ronparise]

I had my conversation with owner care today, I work with the same person for all my problems, and her title is Senior Case Specialist, Owner Care, so Im guessing she has a little more experience than the average owner care person

heres what I learned:

Regarding cancelled reservations. She says the only change will be in the name. Behind the scenes everything stays the same. They were never able to attach a cancelled point with a particular contract, so now that doesnt change. They are still cancelled points but will now be called regular use year points, and will not be associated with any contract. The only difference is that the things we could never do with cancelled points will now be possible.

She confirmed that we will be able to make more than 10 reservations: the excess will be cancelled later

She was also pretty sure that the system wouldnt see ARP reservations when counting to 10 so you could have 20 ARP reservations and 10 Standard and Express reservations

And talking about what the system will or wont see. It wont see or tie together multiple accounts. So the owner with an interest in multiple platinum accounts or points managers with multiple platinum accounts available to them will be able to have 10 reservations in each one.


All this convinces me that this is no more than a PR move. The stated goal is to "increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts". That sounds great, but thats a carefully worded statement and the key words are "for more owners" it doesnt say for how many more. For the most popular reservations there will be no change; everything will get sucked up in the ARP window just like now.

But lets make a big assumption that there are some very popular reservations left in the Standard reservations window. Under the new rules we are limited to 10 each. Lets assume a hypothetical 100 unit resort where only 50 of our hard to get reservations were taken in the ARP window, 50 are left. so now instead of 2 owners getting 25 each, there will be 5 owners able to get 10 each. So back to our goal of increasing availability for more owners .... it worked, in my example availability was increased for 3 owners. Big effing deal! There is no change for the bulk of the owner base. But at least thing feel more fair. Unfortunately the number of reservations hung up in rentals wont change significantly, and the guy that paid $20000 and $600 a year mf for 105000 points will still be pissed off when on his one very expensive weekend vacation a year he shares a hot tub with one of my rental customers that paid me just $300 for the same weekend.

 

[am1]

Which weeks should I start reserving in New Orleans?

All this convinces me that this is no more than a PR move. The stated goal is to "increase availability for more owners at the most sought after resorts". That sounds great, but thats a carefully worded statement and the key words are "for more owners" it doesnt say for how many more. For the most popular reservations there will be no change; everything will get sucked up in the ARP window just like now.

But lets make a big assumption that there are some very popular reservations left in the Standard reservations window. Under the new rules we are limited to 10 each. Lets assume a hypothetical 100 unit resort where only 50 of our hard to get reservations were taken in the ARP window, 50 are left. so now instead of 2 owners getting 25 each, there will be 5 owners able to get 10 each. So back to our goal of increasing availability for more owners .... it worked, in my example availability was increased for 3 owners. Big effing deal! There is no change for the bulk of the owner base. But at least thing feel more fair. Unfortunately the number of reservations hung up in rentals wont change significantly, and the guy that paid $20000 and $600 a year mf for 105000 points will still be pissed off when on his one very expensive weekend vacation a year he shares a hot tub with one of my rental customers that paid me just $300 for the same weekend.

 

[ronparise]

Which weeks should I start reserving in New Orleans?

You can have anything Im not able to reserve.

 

[persia]

Perhaps Glacier Canyon folks complaining? That place is swamped with mega-renters. But it will have no affect since the popular weeks are gone in ARP anyway....

 

[ronparise]

Perhaps Glacier Canyon folks complaining? That place is swamped with mega-renters. But it will have no affect since the popular weeks are gone in ARP anyway....

exactly right

 

[am1]

Will reservations booked before October 1st count towards the limit of 10 if more are booked for the same dates after october 1? Sort of like the question if ARP reservations will be completely excluded from counting. But a one time event.

Who is going to pay for the extra housekeeping costs and checking guests in and out of resorts?

 

[ecwinch]

Lets assume a hypothetical 100 unit resort where only 50 of our hard to get reservations were taken in the ARP window, 50 are left. so now instead of 2 owners getting 25 each, there will be 5 owners able to get 10 each. So back to our goal of increasing availability for more owners .... it worked, in my example availability was increased for 3 owners. Big effing deal! There is no change for the bulk of the owner base. But at least thing feel more fair. Unfortunately the number of reservations hung up in rentals wont change significantly, and the guy that paid $20000 and $600 a year mf for 105000 points will still be pissed off when on his one very expensive weekend vacation a year he shares a hot tub with one of my rental customers that paid me just $300 for the same weekend.

Personally I think the intent is to increase the cost of the renting by limiting the cancel/rebook strategy. If someone booked 20 ARP and 10 standard reservations, they will not be able to cancel/rebook any of the ARP reservations.

 

[Ty1on]

Personally I think the intent is to increase the cost of the renting by limiting the cancel/rebook strategy. If someone booked 20 ARP and 10 standard reservations, they will not be able to cancel/rebook any of the ARP reservations.

But that person would be able to cancel/rebook the 10 standard reservations, which originally cost the same points as the ARP....

 

[ecwinch]

Sure - but the cost of doing business just went up. Lets assume a 75k reservation. Twenty units booked in ARP and 10 at standard. So 2.25m pts.

Under old rules - cancel rebook each res = 1.125m pts
New rules = 1.5m (20 ARP) + 375k (10 Std) = 1.875m

 

[Ty1on]

Sure - but the cost of doing business just went up. Lets assume a 75k reservation. Twenty units booked in ARP and 10 at standard. So 2.25m pts.

Under old rules - cancel rebook each res = 1.125m pts
New rules = 1.5m (20 ARP) + 375k (10 Std) = 1.875m

Yes, it seems like that may have been the intention.

 

[Don40]

This rule change is trying to slow down the cancel rebook. Wyndham is happy if you use full points to book a unit as ARP is not affected, book to the max amount of points you have.
This is trying to cut down on the potential profit a renter can make with the 50% discount and upgrade feature.
Wyndham is the largest renter scooping up the inventory for nothing, and complaining about a few people making a dollar. They are greedy, let them play by the same rules as everyone else, that will free up inventory for the rest of the owners.

 

[ronparise]

Sure - but the cost of doing business just went up. Lets assume a 75k reservation. Twenty units booked in ARP and 10 at standard. So 2.25m pts.

Under old rules - cancel rebook each res = 1.125m pts
New rules = 1.5m (20 ARP) + 375k (10 Std) = 1.875m

Eric

I think you are exactly right. looking at it on a per reservation basis; instead of each reservation costing me 37,500 points , (about $300) now my average cost will be 62500 points plus a guest confirm (about $425)

So lets take it to the next step. and try to predict the reaction of the typical mega renter. I think that they will increase the number of rentals that they do, to preserve their income stream

Wyndham may cut back on the number of cancel and rebooks that happen, but overall I think rental activity will increase. It will become more difficult to get a reservation at Glacier Canyon, not easier.

 

[am1]

Wyndham may cut back on the number of cancel and rebooks that happen, but overall I think rental activity will increase. It will become more difficult to get a reservation at Glacier Canyon, not easier.

One resort I may enter which I previously had not needed to.

 

[Bigrob]

Eric

I think you are exactly right. looking at it on a per reservation basis; instead of each reservation costing me 37,500 points , (about $300) now my average cost will be 62500 points plus a guest confirm (about $425)

So lets take it to the next step. and try to predict the reaction of the typical mega renter. I think that they will increase the number of rentals that they do, to preserve their income stream

Wyndham may cut back on the number of cancel and rebooks that happen, but overall I think rental activity will increase. It will become more difficult to get a reservation at Glacier Canyon, not easier.

Agree, and it will make mega-renters more likely to enter new markets. As you've been saying, it will distribute each resort to a wider base of mega-renters, but not eliminate or even reduce the rental activity at each resort. In fact to the extent margins are reduced, activity (volume) may increase to compensate.

I do believe Ron and Ron's contacts more than I do mine regarding points treatment; I think the points treatment will be essentially unchanged and that "cancelled" points will be different in name only (and carry the ability of regular use points other than ARP). My contact was definitely wrong on one other point she was making to me, so the rest of what I heard is more suspect. It is unfortunate that Wyndham doesn't seem to provide a "single source of truth" about changes such as these.

 

[Bigrob]

Who is going to pay for the extra housekeeping costs and checking guests in and out of resorts?

You lost me on this one. What about this change is increasing housekeeping and check-ins?

 

[am1]

You lost me on this one. What about this change is increasing housekeeping and check-ins?

I am sure you are not the only one.

In the past I would book full weeks when possible. Now I will have to make sure I do not go over 10 reservations for any given night. That may mean I can only book a Saturday - Friday reservation as I have maxed out the friday night already. That leaves the Friday night reservation on its own for someone else to book.

I would also put together 2-4 reservations to make up a week for the same guest. Now I will not need to do that. 2-4 owners will now occupy that room over the week instead of just 1.

 

[ecwinch]

This rule change is trying to slow down the cancel rebook. Wyndham is happy if you use full points to book a unit as ARP is not affected, book to the max amount of points you have.
This is trying to cut down on the potential profit a renter can make with the 50% discount and upgrade feature.
Wyndham is the largest renter scooping up the inventory for nothing, and complaining about a few people making a dollar. They are greedy, let them play by the same rules as everyone else, that will free up inventory for the rest of the owners.

I am sorry, but I find the comparison to Wyndham's rental activities to be apples and oranges. Wyndham does not engage in a systematic process to grab units with the highest rental potential at the 10/13 month mark. And Wyndham stopping their rental activity that would have almost no impact on the average owner being able to book prime units. That is a red herring.

 

[Bigrob]

And Wyndham stopping their rental activity that would have almost no impact on the average owner being able to book prime units. That is a red herring.

Do you have evidence of this? It may be a true statement for the owner that can book far in advance. It is definitely not the case, from what I have seen, for owners who can only book short notice, when Wyndham has grabbed all of the remaining inventory. But perhaps you have inside information and insight that I don't?

I had a very recent example. Plenty of availability if you go through extraholidays. No availability to book with points. A guest wanted to extend, and the unit they were in and got kicked out of was available. BUT NOT TO OWNERS TO BOOK. Only through Wyndham's rental arm, which is not subject in any way to the rules being imposed on all other owners. I agree with Don40. It is at best a conflict of interest to have one part of the company serving up advantages to another part of the company.

But sure, it's a red herring if you say so. Maybe you'll feel differently if you want to extend your vacation and get strong-armed into paying extraholidays for it instead of being able to use your points.

 

[Bigrob]

I had my conversation with owner care today, I work with the same person for all my problems, and her title is Senior Case Specialist, Owner Care, so Im guessing she has a little more experience than the average owner care person

heres what I learned:

Regarding cancelled reservations. She says the only change will be in the name. Behind the scenes everything stays the same. They were never able to attach a cancelled point with a particular contract, so now that doesnt change. They are still cancelled points but will now be called regular use year points, and will not be associated with any contract. The only difference is that the things we could never do with cancelled points will now be possible.

I spoke with another agent today who confirmed that reservations made from regular use year points will go back to being regular use year points in the year they were made from, and not be associated to a contract (and therefore have no ARP.)

But unlike today, she did say that reservations made from credit pooled points will go back to the credit pool with the same expiration as they had originally. As most of you know, if you cancel a reservation made with credit pooled points today, the points are cancelled points in the year of the reservation. So that IS a change, and a positive one (at least in most situations, unless you have points in a pool that are set to expire.)

 

[ecwinch]

Agree, and it will make mega-renters more likely to enter new markets. As you've been saying, it will distribute each resort to a wider base of mega-renters, but not eliminate or even reduce the rental activity at each resort. In fact to the extent margins are reduced, activity (volume) may increase to compensate.

I agree that the potential exists, but I think the offset will be less overall.

Certainly it will cause some renters to target a broader range of resorts and operate under the limit in order to retain margins. But there is not unlimited demand for rentals. So by increasing their costs, making their operations more complicated, and creating barriers for new renters to become commercial renters - the net impact will offset the impact of mega-renters diversifying to other resorts IMHO.

And increasing their volume involves taking on more points or finding more accts to manage. Which just increases fixed operating costs and business risk. All things the makes the business less viable. For it would only take a few defaults by pts managers to adversely impact that business model.

 

[ecwinch]

Do you have evidence of this? It may be a true statement for the owner that can book far in advance. It is definitely not the case, from what I have seen, for owners who can only book short notice, when Wyndham has grabbed all of the remaining inventory. But perhaps you have inside information and insight that I don't?

I had a very recent example. Plenty of availability if you go through extraholidays. No availability to book with points. A guest wanted to extend, and the unit they were in and got kicked out of was available. BUT NOT TO OWNERS TO BOOK. Only through Wyndham's rental arm, which is not subject in any way to the rules being imposed on all other owners. I agree with Don40. It is at best a conflict of interest to have one part of the company serving up advantages to another part of the company.

But sure, it's a red herring if you say so. Maybe you'll feel differently if you want to extend your vacation and get strong-armed into paying extraholidays for it instead of being able to use your points.

Come on ... I clearly said "prime units".

But in case I missed something - what rules is Wyndham's rental arm exempt from?

 

[paxsarah]

I spoke with another agent today who confirmed that reservations made from regular use year points will go back to being regular use year points in the year they were made from, and not be associated to a contract (and therefore have no ARP.)

But unlike today, she did say that reservations made from credit pooled points will go back to the credit pool with the same expiration as they had originally. As most of you know, if you cancel a reservation made with credit pooled points today, the points are cancelled points in the year of the reservation. So that IS a change, and a positive one (at least in most situations, unless you have points in a pool that are set to expire.)

Or if you have points in a pool that you want to deposit to RCI. Before this change, I'd be happy to deposit all my points into the credit pool that I wasn't planning on using for ARP. If I decided to use RCI (so far only for DVC but it is a good trade), I'd transfer the points to RCI close to whenever I needed to to make the exchange (after booking and cancelling if necessary with pooled points). Now I may have to hold back points for RCI deposits as well as ARP, depending on our plans. It does complicate things a little bit for us now.

 

[vacationhopeful]

Come on ... I clearly said "prime units".

But in case I missed something - what rules is Wyndham's rental arm exempt from?

From what I understand, Extra Holidays can "CLAIM for FREE" 90% of any available inventory 60 days before checkin.

If an owner contracts with Extra Holidays to rent a reservation or fixed week ownership, Wyndham charges all types of fees against the "cash" collected including clean fees and credit card processioning fees PLUS 40% commission of the GROSS income. A 1 week reservation is deemed RENTED if ONLY 1 of the 7 nights is booked. And the owner can NOT find out if the unit is rented before the checkin date. They find out the final value number via a payment 30 days after checkout/end of reservation. Image a unit with a MF of $1200 and Extra Holidays website rents it for Tues night at $89 - netting chump change to the owner (actually, it could be zero).