2015 Program Changes [merged]

[am1]

From what I understand, Extra Holidays can "CLAIM for FREE" 90% of any available inventory 60 days before checkin.

Is it for free or using unsold points, points for plus partners, etc?

 

[traveldaddy]

Thank you all

Canceled my reservation last night. This morning it was updated as Jan/16 canceled points, so I have them for all of next year.

I guess I will be able to say I rolled points forward 3 times, the first, last and only time. Remember the good old days?

I appreciate the help very much.

 

[Bigrob]

Canceled my reservation last night. This morning it was updated as Jan/16 canceled points, so I have them for all of next year.

I guess I will be able to say I rolled points forward 3 times, the first, last and only time. Remember the good old days?

I appreciate the help very much.

Cool! Glad it worked out for you. And you can now extend them another 3 years by credit pooling on Dec 31.

 

[Bigrob]

Or if you have points in a pool that you want to deposit to RCI. Before this change, I'd be happy to deposit all my points into the credit pool that I wasn't planning on using for ARP. If I decided to use RCI (so far only for DVC but it is a good trade), I'd transfer the points to RCI close to whenever I needed to to make the exchange (after booking and cancelling if necessary with pooled points). Now I may have to hold back points for RCI deposits as well as ARP, depending on our plans. It does complicate things a little bit for us now.

This is a good point that I had not considered. It does seem that there should be a way to facilitate being able to deposit points for use with RCI... because unless you're VIP, you have to credit pool before the use year begins, and you may not know at that time whether (and how many points) you want to deposit to RCI. Hmmm.

 

[Bigrob]

Come on ... I clearly said "prime units".

But in case I missed something - what rules is Wyndham's rental arm exempt from?

Wyndham's rental arm is not bound by the limits that everyone else is in terms of number of concurrent reservations.

Just because something is, or becomes, available at the last minute does not necessarily imply that it is not prime. That is the mistake so many people make. These prime units are being grabbed automatically by extraholidays, not subject to the same rules as the rest of us, and are being held for ransom at ridiculous extraholidays rates rather than being offered to owners to book.

We are paying for Wyndham to manage this through our CWP fees. They are using those fees, in part, to fund development of system changes and business rules that further allow their own rental arm to grab additional inventory. If the Wyndham rental arm abided by their own rules, then I do think you would see a difference in availability, and to Ron's point the owner booking at the last minute would have more opportunity to make his weekend booking with his 105,000 point contract that he paid $20,000 for and $780 maintenance fees on. Imagine how much angrier that mythical owner is when he's sitting next to Ron's renter who paid $300 for a 3-night stay, and he couldn't even use his points but had to pay extraholidays $225+/night for the same stay.

 

[Bigrob]

Is it for free or using unsold points, points for plus partners, etc?

They are accounting for the "free" inventory via several mechanisms and from deposits from unwitting owners willing to accept the "deal" from extraholidays.

This is another factor to consider, they use the "free" points at the 60-day mark to absorb the inventory (read: limit the utilization of VIP discounts); if you as an owner deposit your interval with them after the 60-day mark, you are at the back of a long line of points/intervals that were deposited before you, meaning the odds of your interval being rented are greatly reduced.

 

[Vacationfuntips]

Here is my update regarding 2016 points that I brought over (borrowing them) to 2015 before the change on Aug 4th. Once I canceled my reservation my points were returned as regular use year 2015 points. Since the points were placed into 2015, they stayed in 2015. The points were not returned to 2016. I verified the use year allocation by checking on points I had that were available to deposit in RCI.

Now I have regular use year 2015 points and must use them by the end of the year.

Cynthia T.

 

[am1]

They are accounting for the "free" inventory via several mechanisms and from deposits from unwitting owners willing to accept the "deal" from extraholidays.

This is another factor to consider, they use the "free" points at the 60-day mark to absorb the inventory (read: limit the utilization of VIP discounts); if you as an owner deposit your interval with them after the 60-day mark, you are at the back of a long line of points/intervals that were deposited before you, meaning the odds of your interval being rented are greatly reduced.

But it is wyndham's points that they are using to reserve those points. At what amount of points Wyndham is able to take reservations at 60 days for extra holidays we do not know.

 

[Bigrob]

But it is wyndham's points that they are using to reserve those points. At what amount of points Wyndham is able to take reservations at 60 days for extra holidays we do not know.

Good point. Pretty sure it is not at face value. Probably at Platinum discount level.

 

[ecwinch]

I do not read the Trust Agreement to say that Wyndham has to use points to make reservations at the 60 day mark. Only that they need to pay "occupancy related expenses" for the reservation. But that they may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy by unit type until the 30 day mark.

This is in paragraph 11.08 of the Trust Agreement.

Also says that Wyndham is free to make reservations at any time with pts they own directly. Subject to the same 10% rule above.

 

[Ty1on]

Good point. Pretty sure it is not at face value. Probably at Platinum discount level.

I thought I read something about 25% of point value, but I can't find it now.

 

[Bigrob]

I thought I read something about 25% of point value, but I can't find it now.

Where do you think you read that?

 

[Bigrob]

I do not read the Trust Agreement to say that Wyndham has to use points to make reservations at the 60 day mark. Only that they need to pay "occupancy related expenses" for the reservation. But that they may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy by unit type until the 30 day mark.

This is in paragraph 11.08 of the Trust Agreement.

Also says that Wyndham is free to make reservations at any time with pts they own directly. Subject to the same 10% rule above.

And NOT subject to the new rules that govern everyone else. Thanks for reading that in the Trust Agreement.

Does anyone know if an up-to-date Trust Agreement is posted online anywhere? If not, would someone be willing to post a link to a google drive, box, dropbox, or other site with their copy of the Trust Agreement?

 

[Ty1on]

Where do you think you read that?

I can't honestly say, but it stands out in my mind.

 

[CO skier]

Does anyone know if an up-to-date Trust Agreement is posted online anywhere? If not, would someone be willing to post a link to a google drive, box, dropbox, or other site with their copy of the Trust Agreement?

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128302

This is from the VOA trust agreement that was recently posted to the Wyndham Advice and Information Stickie

"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate."


Full points must be paid for all reservations. The points must come from somewhere, otherwise it would be "overselling." When a discount reservation is made, the member pays the discounted points and Wyndham provides the balance. It would make no sense for Wyndham to use a discount, because Wyndham would have to pay the difference -- discount or no discount, Wyndham would always pay 100% of the points.

 

[Bigrob]

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128302

"11.08 Wyndham Use. In addition to the right of Wyndham, as a Member and owner of Points, to make reservations using those Points at any time, Wyndham, in its capacity as the developer of resort communities and Vacation Plans, may reserve available Accommodations up to 60 days in advance of the first day of anticipated occupancy, for its own purposes, including renting to the public, provided it pays or otherwise causes a third party to pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used. All such occupancy related expenses shall be determined by the Trustee. As a result of Wyndham’s use there will be less space available for Member use; however, Wyndham may not reserve the last 10% of available occupancy for a type of Accommodation until 30 days prior to the first day of intended use. In addition, to the extent more Points are available in the Plan than are allocated to Members other
than Wyndham, Wyndham may sell or lease Points on such terms as Wyndham and the Trustee deem reasonable. The purchasers or lessees of such Points shall have such Membership rights as Wyndham and the Trustee deem appropriate."


Full points must be paid for all reservations. The points must come from somewhere, otherwise it would be "overselling." When a discount reservation is made, the member pays the discounted points and Wyndham provides the balance. It would make no sense for Wyndham to use a discount, because Wyndham would have to pay the difference -- discount or no discount, Wyndham would always pay 100% of the points.

Are you stating the above as a fact from some other document or source? Because I don't read that into the 11.08 Trust Language quoted above. I read that as an either/or:

Case 1. Wyndham as owner of points can use the points for reservations at any time it deems fit (not subject to any NUL) - as this would be outside 60 days, such reservations are presumably at full point value (although this is not stated).

Case 2. Wyndham can reserve 90% of available units at the 60 day mark, and all of the remaining units at the 30 day mark, and the payment is NOT in points... it is either directly or by a "third party" (read: Wyndham's rental arm, ExtraHolidays) causes to "pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used."

There are two things troubling in that statement. One is the determination of the "occupancy related expenses" - and the other, not so obvious implication, is that if the nights are reserved and NOT USED, there is no compensation stated or implied, even though those nights were no longer available for owners to book.

Nothing here in any way changes the clear fact that Wyndham grabbing all the inventory at 60 and 30 days - whether or not they pay some token amount, or nothing at all if not used - does in fact affect availability for owners, especially those who due to work or family considerations, don't have the luxury of planning their trips 10 months in advance.

If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the discount window.

Consider this example at Bonnet Creek, for example. 1770 units in total. Let's say for the sake of argument, out of that there are still 100 units available at day 61. On day 60, the availability drops to 10, and mega-renters seeing the dark green turning to light green gobble up the remainder. At day 30, megarenters who forgot to cancel/rebook find they can't cancel/rebook, because Wyndham is automatically grabbing everything inside of 30 days. (Yes, they are doing this. That is why the units don't come back.) No wonder Joe average has no chance if he can't plan far in advance. Oh, and if you're silver... good luck getting an upgrade!

Here at TUG we advise potential timeshare owners that timeshares may not be for them if they want to travel at peak times and can't plan well in advance. But that is not the refrain played by sales (and the false availability reserved for "Discovery" points just adds to the mis-perception that Joe Average will be able to use his points the way he thinks he can). Is it any surprise that this is a common complaint?

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[ecwinch]

I believe - based on both the language and observations on unit availability - that the 10% limit/cap on Wyndham is based on total inventory by type, and not the remaining inventory at the 60 day mark.

So if a resort has 100 1 BR units (total inventory), then Wyndham cannot reserve the last 10 units until 30 days out - either with their pts or by taking the inventory at the 60 day mark.

So if 12 1 BR rooms are available at 60 days out, then they can take 2 units. Not that they can take all but 1.2 units.

 

[Ty1on]

I believe - based on both the language and observations on unit availability - that the 10% limit/cap on Wyndham is based on total inventory by type, and not the remaining inventory at the 60 day mark.

So if a resort has 100 1 BR units (total inventory), then Wyndham cannot reserve the last 10 units until 30 days out - either with their pts or by taking the inventory at the 60 day mark.

So if 12 1 BR rooms are available at 60 days out, then they can take 2 units. Not that they can take all but 1.2 units.

Yes, the Member's guide supplement has clarified that.

If there are less than 50 Club units at a property, the limit becomes 20% of the total units owned by the Club.

 

[CO skier]

Are you stating the above as a fact from some other document or source?

What are you suggesting? That Wyndham just reserves out of thin air? Do you really think that any state timeshare regulatory agency would allow this? Wyndham must have a bazillion unsold and foreclosed points that expire every year. There is absolutely no reason why they would not use these points to make full credit reservations within 60 days, if that is what they chose to do.

I read that as an either/or:

Case 1. Wyndham as owner of points can use the points for reservations at any time it deems fit (not subject to any NUL) - as this would be outside 60 days, such reservations are presumably at full point value (although this is not stated).

Case 2. Wyndham can reserve 90% of available units at the 60 day mark, and all of the remaining units at the 30 day mark, and the payment is NOT in points... it is either directly or by a "third party" (read: Wyndham's rental arm, ExtraHolidays) causes to "pay the occupancy related expenses of such Accommodations for each night to be used."

There are two things troubling in that statement. One is the determination of the "occupancy related expenses" - and the other, not so obvious implication, is that if the nights are reserved and NOT USED, there is no compensation stated or implied, even though those nights were no longer available for owners to book.

Of course the reservations are made by Wyndham for full points (see above). Wyndham can then choose to sell (or give away) these reservations for any amount. If they sell these reservations in bulk to a third party for $100 each, that is $100 per reservation more than if they just let their bazillion points expire worthless. If Wyndham chooses to market any of these reservations through Extra Holidays, there is nothing to prevent this. Once again, if they sell only some nights here and there, that is more than letting the points expire.

Who knows if Wyndham is grabbing inventory at 60 or 30 days? Mega-renters who book premium reservations at 13 or 10 months with the intent to rent, or cancel/rebook and rent are just as bad, if not worse. If someone cannot make their vacation plans more than 60 days (or 13 or 10 months) in advance, they would obviously be more satisfied with hotels (which may not have any availability at 60 days, either) than with a timeshare. Salespeople would never point this out, of course, because how would that help a sale?

If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the discount window.

If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop [landlords including mega-renters] gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the [ARP and 10-month] window, then cancelling-rebooking-and/or-upgrading in the VIP discount window.

Here at TUG we advise potential timeshare owners that timeshares may not be for them if they want to travel at peak times and can't plan well in advance. But that is not the refrain played by sales (and the false availability reserved for "Discovery" points just adds to the mis-perception that Joe Average will be able to use his points the way he thinks he can). Is it any surprise that this is a common complaint?

At my first presentation and purchase , the salesperson somehow forgot to mention anything about ongoing maintenance fees. Imagine my surprise when that first bill showed up, and what it did for my per-vacation cost analysis versus what the salesperson presented. Timeshare salespeople stretch the truth and outright lie. So what is new?

Your post (and others' in other threads) reek of sour grapes because someone or something is interfering with what used to be a predictable cancel/rebook road to profitability. Wyndham is an easy target, because there is no way to prove it one way or another. If Wyndham were capturing all cancellations within 60 days (doubtful, but everyone is entitled to their paranoia), at least that possibility is clearly spelled out in the VOA Trust, whereas cancel/rebook is just a loophole in the rules.

 

[vacationhopeful]

[/COLOR]

What are you suggesting? That Wyndham just reserves out of thin air?

You are giving Wyndham too much credit ... if the reservation is AVAILABLE they can grab it. Nowhere have I heard or read that Wyndham pays (in points or $$$) for those units. It is UN-BOOKED ... and Wyndham can USE IT for whatever reason and NOT pay for it.


Do you really think that any state timeshare regulatory agency would allow this? Wyndham must have a bazillion unsold and foreclosed points that expire every year. There is absolutely no reason why they would not use these points to make full credit reservations within 60 days, if that is what they chose to do.

WHY? If the rule book says Wyndham can take ... why get involved with all that accounting. Extra Holidays pays sales taxes and has commissions and advertising expenses (and office space, computer time, etc) ... Read the Extra Holiday's rental contract to TS owners .... If an owner turns over a reservation to EH, only one guest is put in the unit ... even if for ONLY 1 night of the 7 day reservation ... the other 6 nights the unit sit EMPTY. It is a DUMB reservation system ... not a hotel running on every night is LOST income.

Of course the reservations are made by Wyndham for full points (see above). Wyndham can then choose to sell (or give away) these reservations for any amount. If they sell these reservations in bulk to a third party for $100 each, that is $100 per reservation more than if they just let their bazillion points expire worthless. If Wyndham chooses to market any of these reservations through Extra Holidays, there is nothing to prevent this. Once again, if they sell only some nights here and there, that is more than letting the points expire.

The unbooked inventory at 60 days out has NO VALUE to Wyndham Corporate... it is salvage GIVEN over to Extra Holidays. The HOA pays the bills either thru FW ownership or deeded points or via CWA trust for the points that CWA owns.

Who knows if Wyndham is grabbing inventory at 60 or 30 days? Mega-renters who book premium reservations at 13 or 10 months with the intent to rent, or cancel/rebook and rent are just as bad, if not worse. If someone cannot make their vacation plans more than 60 days (or 13 or 10 months) in advance, they would obviously be more satisfied with hotels (which may not have any availability at 60 days, either) than with a timeshare. Salespeople would never point this out, of course, because how would that help a sale?

[I]MEGA-RENTERS own points and pay MFs. Allegdely, discounts via the VIP system is paid for by Sales via a balancing of the discounts over the year ... and this very well might happen[/I].


If Wyndham were serious about reducing complaints about lack of availability, they would stop [landlords including mega-renters] gobbling up all the inventory at high demand resorts in the [ARP and 10-month] window, then cancelling-rebooking-and/or-upgrading in the VIP discount window.

Wyndham has SOLD the points to owners ... some who choose to READ the Member Directory and some who whine.

At my first presentation and purchase , the salesperson somehow forgot to mention anything about ongoing maintenance fees. Imagine my surprise when that first bill showed up, and what it did for my per-vacation cost analysis versus what the salesperson presented. Timeshare salespeople stretch the truth and outright lie. So what is new?

Your post (and others' in other threads) reek of sour grapes because someone or something is interfering with what used to be a predictable cancel/rebook road to profitability. Wyndham is an easy target, because there is no way to prove it one way or another. If Wyndham were capturing all cancellations within 60 days (doubtful, but everyone is entitled to their paranoia), at least that possibility is clearly spelled out in the VOA Trust, whereas cancel/rebook is just a loophole in the rules.

Wyndham can take 90% of the available unbooked inventory at 60 days out and 100% within 30 days. And no, Wyndham doesn't have to pay for it ... it is considered "Salvage Inventory" ... whether it is PRIME TIME or LOWER than CRAP seasonal inventory.

See updates above.

I have had my Fixed Week unit during Prime Season "occupied" by a Extra Holiday's tenant. And I, within 2 weeks, was in the HOA meeting hot the all bull crap asking "WHAT RIGHT" and where was my signature on a release to give up my unit to Extra Holiday's. And the best line was, I want ALL my money without commissions or fees in my hand NOW.

I learned NEXT TIME, to call the POLICE for theft ... I got NO MONEY, their guest roosted in my unit and MY friends got another similar unit for the few nights they were in town. But at 10PM at night, to have the front desk DENIED I had a unit there, leaving my guests standing homeless in the lobby ... I had to get the assistant resort managed called at HOME ..etc.

And HOW did I find all this out as to WHO was sleeping in MY fixed deed week? I called my unit and ASK to speak to "me" by name. And when the person said they did NOT know "me", I asked if they had rented the place from me? No, they had paid EXTRA HOLIDAYS .... so the Extra Holidays web site was $250+ per night and that is the CASH money I wanted ... I have no agreement to lease to EH and I was sure as crap not going to REWARD the thieving operation.

 

[Bigrob]

Yes, the Member's guide supplement has clarified that.

If there are less than 50 Club units at a property, the limit becomes 20% of the total units owned by the Club.

That restriction applies to everyone BUT Wyndham.

 

[ronparise]

So how is the new policy working

are the points from reservations made with credit pooled points, going back to the pool or are they being carried as regular use year points ?...

and if you have multiple use years are they "rolling forward"?

 

[Ty1on]

That restriction applies to everyone BUT Wyndham.

Yeah I think Wyndham is only restricted from using the last 10%.

 

[Ty1on]

That restriction applies to everyone BUT Wyndham.

Just to be clear, by "owned by the club," I mean held in trust for use by Club members.

 

[Bigrob]

Your post (and others' in other threads) reek of sour grapes because someone or something is interfering with what used to be a predictable cancel/rebook road to profitability. Wyndham is an easy target, because there is no way to prove it one way or another. If Wyndham were capturing all cancellations within 60 days (doubtful, but everyone is entitled to their paranoia), at least that possibility is clearly spelled out in the VOA Trust, whereas cancel/rebook is just a loophole in the rules.

Actually, I am still very high on the Wyndham product. I am looking for ways to make it more accessible for all owners, and it's clear we disagree about the impact of Wyndham grabbing all the available inventory at 30 days and most of it at 60 days. Wouldn't it make more sense to NOT block that inventory, but just make reservations as they get them through EH? More units available for all, and no conflict of interest.

One would think that having been deceived by Wyndham sales already, you would not be such an advocate for a self-serving change that does not address the issue it purportedly is designed to address, and I guess I'm confused as to why you'd attack me for pointing out the flaw in addressing the availability issue. Quite honestly, the nightly unit limit change doesn't impact me directly at all, I never held units in excess of the new limit anyway. I'm sure it does impact some other owners. But I don't see any way to characterize the on-going ability of Wyndham to lock up all the inventory at 30 days as being in any way helpful in addressing the availability issue for all owners.

I guess it is what it is. I'm just disappointed that Wyndham didn't address both sides of the issue by changing the amount of inventory they take concurrent with the change being made for all other owners... in the interest of truly increasing availability for all owners.