2010 Maintenance Fee Thread

[GeneNWendy]

I found out that while it is true that Starwood may try and rent out delinquent weeks, they come last in the order of priorities. The first ones to be rented out are from owners who are up-to-date in maintenance and decided to convert their week to Starpoints. The next ones along the same premise are people exchanging their week to stay at another Starwood resort using StarOptions. Finally, delinquent weeks are rented out. However, I understand that no delinquent weeks have been rented out at WSJ this past year. Apparently Starwood has concerns about the legality of renting out somebody's deeded unit without actually having their permission.

When I attended one of the Board Meetings, I asked a lot of questions about renting delinquent units. The answers were, unfortunately, less than satisfactory. It didn't seem if there was a true plan in place (and this is for one of the resorts with more demand than supply).

I was told:

-- They do attempt to rent delinquent owner weeks
-- Owners can show up for a reservation with a check in hand and they will be allowed in

The above two statements can't both be true (to some extent -- maybe -- but clearly there's an inconsistency as well).

I was also told that owners aren't "locked out" until maintenance fees are 90 days past due. So, it's quite easy for someone to use a unit in the first quarter and get away with not paying the fees.

Several people here on TUG have reported being able to deposit next year's usage without pre-paying maintenance fees. That may have been "owner friendly," but it's not good business in this economy. There was a recent report here on TUG that the policy was being changed to ensure estimated fees are collected in advance, but I haven't seen that independently verified by Starwood or by anyone who has tried to deposit. As I understand it, the rules were different (perhaps as set by the HOAs) for different resorts so until Starwood announces a formal policy change, I'm a little afraid that this might still be occuring.

I know all don't agree with me, but I think the liberal cancellation policy probably hurts the rental income potential. There's a much greater chance of another owner using time, or being able to rent it, if last-minute cancellations weren't being rewarded with a penalty-free II week. As I've stated in the past -- there might come a day when I too am happy about this policy, but I don't think it's beneficial to the ownership at large.

I suspect Starwood and the HOAs did not have their eyes on the ball in 2009. The Starwood representative present at the meeting admitted that they didn't see the delinquencies coming. (Was that a rookie error -- the first real down economy they've had to deal with in this segment of the hospitality business?) Unfortunately, that lack of attention ... lack of a real plan .... cost owners a significant amount of money for this year. Hopefully, there's been enough owner concern about increased maintenance fees to ensure that things will be better this year on the collection and rental front.

Ultimately, one has to believe that the extremely high maintenance fees are hurting developer sales -- maybe not as much as they're hurting resales -- but they certainly can't be helping. Higher maintenance fees means higher management fees for Starwood -- but also lower sales. Which one do we think is more important to them from a financial standpoint?

 

[jerseygirl]

Gene -- Can you clarify your #2 source above? How could Starwood rent a week that has been exchanged for StarOptions?

 

[DavidnRobin]

I believe Gene means that when someone uses their WSJ SOs to exchange into another SVN resort (e.g. HRA) - then their WSJ VOI is open to rent. However, these open VOIs should be available to WSJ Owner exchanges at 10-months out, and then SVN exchanges at 8-months out. The question is whether they make these available to Owners or SVN - or choose to rent w/o opening them up for exchanges. Again, it is difficult to know because of the lack of SVO/WSJ transparency (...broken record...).

And... as they own ~10% of VOIs of WSJ-VG (is this correct?) - I assume they rent their VOIs first before anyones.

 

[jarta]

When Staroptions are used to go elsewhere, perhaps establishing when the first rental takes place would be helpful.

BTW, I thought most St. John owners stayed at home: First, because it's so nice: Second because, until recently, the Staroptions didn't even match up for trading. ... eom

 

[jarta]

David, ... "The question is whether they make these available to Owners or SVN - or choose to rent w/o opening them up for exchanges."

All I can add is that I made 2 separate 3-br Staroption trades into St. John this year. One, in 2 weeks; the other in late September. My experience seems to indicate that the units are made available to other SVN owners for Staroption trades. There just don't seem to be that many of them that open up. ... eom

 

[jerseygirl]

I can't believe I agree with Jarta ... but I think Gene's #2 is incorrect ... which is why I asked the question. Once an owner chooses to convert his/her week to StarOptions, the week is made available to other SVN members to book with their StarOptions. Despite the many failings of Starwood, I haven't seen/read evidence to prove otherwise (but would certainly love to hear/read about it if exists).

I completely agree with Gene's #1 and I think we, as owners, should be demanding an accounting/full transparency of this practice at all our resorts. I think it explains why "prime weeks" are never available at 10 months for HRA and WSJ who wish to float within their seasons (and, Jarta, neither of the weeks you obtained via SVN would be considered "prime," which I define for these purposes as holidays and when kids are out of school -- those that are traditionally hard to trade into at HRA and WSJ via the SVN system).

............ just trying to avoid misinformation about the rental practices -- they're bad enough "as is" without making them seem worse that they are!

 

[James1975NY]

I found out that while it is true that Starwood may try and rent out delinquent weeks, they come last in the order of priorities. The first ones to be rented out are from owners who are up-to-date in maintenance and decided to convert their week to Starpoints. The next ones along the same premise are people exchanging their week to stay at another Starwood resort using StarOptions. Finally, delinquent weeks are rented out. However, I understand that no delinquent weeks have been rented out at WSJ this past year. Apparently Starwood has concerns about the legality of renting out somebody's deeded unit without actually having their permission.

Starwood does not rent out units that have been used as StarOptions.

I can assure you, Starwood is not concerned with the legality of renting out an owner's week if they are delinquent. There is verbiage in the condo documents that allows for this..

 

[DavidnRobin]

I didn't say what Gene said for point #2 was true - just that there is no transparency to know otherwise. Plus, how many WSJ VOIs have been attained via SVN for prime weeks (which for WSJ is ~Jan to ~Mar, and not summertime) reported here? Lots of Sept/Oct openings - which is ultra low season.

There are Owners who exchange out of WSJ via SVN - probably more now that they increased the SOs (ours went from 67.1K to 81K). There are probably even Owners that have converted SOs to SPs which is an extremely bad deal for WSJ-VG (we would get only 22K SPs for each week - a truly awful conversion).

What I have always found odd is the amount of villas that are empty during our stay in June. While June is low season - it still has demand (less than earlier in the year, but greater than Sept/Oct) - yet villas sit empty - or are used only for a few days by... guess who? RENTERS and SPG users from the hotel section!!!??? So they are getting rented out by WSJ/SVO - the question is where are these unused VOIs coming from? Don't know - why? again, because there is no transparency. Meaning... that somewhere/somehow these villas are available, but not getting used by SVN exchangers which should have first dibs at 8 months out. So... it is difficult to know if this is on the level by SVO/WSJ - OR - that VOIs are getting mixed into the rental pool WITHOUT compensation to the HOA (which is evident when looking at the MF bills).

Why do I think this...? because when I am sitting around the pool talking to people - there are two types of visitors - Owners and Renters (via Hotel or SPG) - and not a single SVN exchanger. Over 4 years now and not one SVN exchanger - seems odd... maybe SVN exchangers do not use the pool? LOL

 

[jerseygirl]

Although traditionally winter is the higher season (and is reflected in SO values as set by Starwood, a hotel-company), when you bring timeshares into the mix, you bring families who need school vacation periods. It's especially true at HRA, and fairly true as WSJ as indicated by availability and prices on SPG.com:

Summer Rentals of WSJ Villas --

No Sat-to-Sat availability for weeks beginning June 12, 19, 26 and July 3rd
7-10 - 7-17..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-17 - 7-24..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-24 - 7-31..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-24 - 7-31..........1-BR / 2-Bath Villa $11620
7-31 - 8-7............3-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15778
7-31 - 8-7............2-BR / 2-Bath Villa $13510
8-7 - 8-14............3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
8-7 - 8-14............2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15022

Compare this to February availability and rental prices:

2-05 - 2-12..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12376
2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa $12376
2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $12376
2-12 - 2-19..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12970
2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa $12970
2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $12970

Then, we have a school holiday (President's Day) and the prices jump:

2-19 - 2-26.....All Villa Sizes (1-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/3-Baths, 3-BR/3-Baths) $16534 .... Some Villas with strange descriptions available for $15400.

Bottom line -- "Prime Summer" is a more expensive rental than "Traditional Prime," except for President's Week.

David -- I don't doubt your experience in meeting a lot of renters at the pool. Mine is not the same, however ... the vast majority of "villa people" I've met are owners.

Again, my only interest in this argument is clarifying Gene's statement that Starwood "rents" weeks converted to SOs. I have yet to see evidence that this is true.

I also agree that there is probably more incentive to convert now that the SO values were increased --- but I would still never give up mine!

 

[jarta]

jerseygirl, ... "and, Jarta, neither of the weeks you obtained via SVN would be considered "prime," which I define for these purposes as holidays and when kids are out of school"

Sorry that you turn up your nose at the two weeks of 3-br St. John units I reserved. I really don't care. I don't need what you call "prime" weeks. My kids are all grown. I'm not tied to a school schedule. My businesses are under control so I can leave anytime. I just need a place in the warm sun from time to time with good friends. (But, any place over 70 degrees is "prime" to me when Chicago is suffering through Winter. lol!)

Plus, gotta spend all those Staroptions somewhere! Why not St. John April 9-16? If I like it, I might keep the late September "hurricane" season reservation. If not, I guess I now know you wouldn't want the 3-br for a week.

All I ever said in respone to an allegation that they were rented and not made available at all is that they were two 3-br weeks that I found were available for Staroption trades. So, I grabbed 'em. I never crowed that they were "primo."

Have you ever stayed in a 3-br at St. John? Are they really that nice in both phases? ... eom

 

[jerseygirl]

I know you didn't make that claim -- it was a preemtive strike. Glad you're acknowledging they're not "prime" weeks. Many years, April 9th would be "prime prime," but this year it's one week past "prime."

And, no -- I'm not sticking my nose up at either reservation. Any week in St John beats a week in Chicago. I was there last October (on an II exchange) and it was lovely. I'm getting my fix this year with a 2-week stay in June -- using my phase 2 unit for the first time ... not sure I will like it as much as phase 1 but we'll see. Maybe the location will make up for the lack of a private pool.

And, yes -- I've been in the 3-BR pool villa (I own one). As far as the new phase is concerned, I liked the 2-BR loft floor plan best (priced higher than the 3-BR, IIRC, but like with views in Maui, Starwood screwed up on the StarOption allocation and classifies it the same as the regular 2-BR).

You'll have to make your own mind up about whether it's as nice as some people say -- it's not for everyone -- and it's not about the villa. Some find it boring .... it's a personal preference .... we think it's paradise.

 

[davo]

SVO Challenge HI taxes

One of the reasons cited for the increase maintenance fees at KVOR was due to a substantial increase in property tax. There were indications that SVO was taking action to challenge the increase.

I've thumbed through the posts and haven't found any recent information on this. Do any of you know of any progress on this subject?

Thanks

 

[GeneNWendy]

Renting a week converted through StarOptions

Gene -- Can you clarify your #2 source above? How could Starwood rent a week that has been exchanged for StarOptions?

Hi JerseyGirl. Last year (2009), I used StarOptions to exchange my Spring week at WSJ for a week in June at the Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Villas in Maui. Once that week in Maui was confirmed, it opened up my Spring week for SVO to rent it out or accomodate somebody who wanted WSJ from another Starwood resort. Obviously, if nobody from another resort uses my free week, it leaves it open for SVO to try and rent it out. It's not much different from my number 1 (forgoing your week for Starpoints). The bottom line is that Starwood claims that these weeks take priority over rentals of units of owners who haven't paid their MF's. BTW, there are a lot of things I don't believe are true with respect to Starwood. I know an owner who has a one-month ownership in a pool villa. She left after 3 weeks for personal reasons. However, some of her friends in other nearby villas noticed that Starwood rented out her 4th week without her permission. They were clearly going to pocket the money for this rental, but they got caught in the act.

I don't trust Starwood as far as a stone you could throw.

 

[GeneNWendy]

Although traditionally winter is the higher season (and is reflected in SO values as set by Starwood, a hotel-company), when you bring timeshares into the mix, you bring families who need school vacation periods. It's especially true at HRA, and fairly true as WSJ as indicated by availability and prices on SPG.com:

Summer Rentals of WSJ Villas --

No Sat-to-Sat availability for weeks beginning June 12, 19, 26 and July 3rd
7-10 - 7-17..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-17 - 7-24..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-24 - 7-31..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
7-24 - 7-31..........1-BR / 2-Bath Villa $11620
7-31 - 8-7............3-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15778
7-31 - 8-7............2-BR / 2-Bath Villa $13510
8-7 - 8-14............3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $15778
8-7 - 8-14............2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $15022

Compare this to February availability and rental prices:

2-05 - 2-12..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12376
2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa $12376
2-05 - 2-12..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $12376
2-12 - 2-19..........3-BR / 3- Bath Villa $12970
2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 2- Bath Villa $12970
2-12 - 2-19..........2-BR / 3-Bath Villa $12970

Then, we have a school holiday (President's Day) and the prices jump:

2-19 - 2-26.....All Villa Sizes (1-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/2-Baths, 2-BR/3-Baths, 3-BR/3-Baths) $16534 .... Some Villas with strange descriptions available for $15400.

Bottom line -- "Prime Summer" is a more expensive rental than "Traditional Prime," except for President's Week.

David -- I don't doubt your experience in meeting a lot of renters at the pool. Mine is not the same, however ... the vast majority of "villa people" I've met are owners.

Again, my only interest in this argument is clarifying Gene's statement that Starwood "rents" weeks converted to SOs. I have yet to see evidence that this is true.

I also agree that there is probably more incentive to convert now that the SO values were increased --- but I would still never give up mine!

Are these amounts that people can rent weeks out for? I must being doing something wrong.

 

[jerseygirl]

No -- these were full retail prices via SPG.com on that specific date. An owner wouldn't get anywhere near these prices, unfortunately, or we could all pay for our weeks in 2 years!

 

[DeniseM]

No -- these were full retail prices via SPG.com on that specific date. An owner wouldn't get anywhere near these prices, unfortunately, or we could all pay for our weeks in 2 years!

jerseygirl, are you sure??? When I bought my timeshare, the salesman showed me those rates and told me I could rent my TS for that amount and make a big profit!

 

[DavidnRobin]

jerseygirl, are you sure??? When I bought my timeshare, the salesman showed me those rates and told me I could rent my TS for that amount and make a big profit!

The salesperson lied to you - oops... I mean that you must not be practiced in the 'art of listening'

 

[DeniseM]

The salesperson lied to you - oops... I mean that you must not be practiced in the 'art of listening'

Huh? What'd you say?????

 

[vistana101]

I just did the calculations for my unit, 40% increase at SVV Bella from 2008.

 

[nodge]

"Pay Early. Win Big. Win Now" quest for winners' list update

Hey Gang,

I thought I’d update everyone on my quest to find out who, if anyone, won anything with SVO’s “Pay Early. Win Big. Win Now” sweepstakes.

In response to my latest request from SVO for this information, I got this response:


Dear [nodge, you handsome devil you],

Thank you for contacting Association Management.

As previously stated, Starwood Vacation Ownership strives to protect the privacy of our owners. As a result we are unable to release the names of the sweepstakes winners.

If you have any other questions regarding this matter please feel free to contact us back.

Sincerely,

[name redacted]
SVO Management Inc.


So, I was able to track down a copy of the official rules for the sweepstakes, which is no small feat since SVO has removed all references to this sweepstakes from mystarcentral.com, yet still manages to keep as its most recent "company news" a story from June 2008.

Rule 6 of the “official contest [sic] rules” provide a method for requesting written notice of the winner’s names, and it had a Feb 1, 2010 cutoff date for making that written request. But, that rule also states that “Confirmed Prizewinners’ names will also be posted on the Owner’s web site.” (emphasis added)

Armed with this info, I responded to SVO Management, Inc. over a week ago with the text of this rule. So far no response.

Bonus Info From the Rules:

Also, while we were all cutting our checks early to pay our maintenance fees to qualify for this “sweepstakes” (which, according to the universally adopted consumer protection laws, this is because it relied on chance, instead of a “contest,” as erroneously labeled by SVO in its rules, which is defined as relying on skill), did anyone know that our early payment of our maintenance fees WASN’T a requirement for entering this sweepstakes? It turns out that universally adopted sweepstakes laws here in the good ol’ U.S.of A require sweepstakes promoters to provide a “no purchase necessary” alternative method of entry.

SVO apparently knew this because it indeed had such an alternative entry method in place for us. It just never bothered to tell us about it directly in its materials promoting the sweepstakes. Instead, SVO placed the description of this alternative entry method in the boilerplate rules. Those rules were only accessible to us by clicking on a hyperlink placed at the bottom of the on-line promotion.

So what you say? Well this is what.

It turns out that, at least here in Oregon and probably in every other state too if someone were to actually look, the consumer protection law REQUIRES that the “no purchase necessary” method of entry be set forth in a “clear and conspicuous” manner. It even goes so far as to say that “reference to the material terms, conditions and limitations of the offer by use of a hyperlink or only disclosing them during the checkout process is not clear and conspicuous.” (emphasis added).

So there you go. More evidence, as if we need any, to document SVO managements’ utter contempt for us owners and the laws aimed at protecting us.

On the plus side, we should all have plenty of time to purchase 3”x 5” cards to mail to SVO for the alternative entry into this year’s pre-pay sweepstakes. This will allow us to pay our maintenance fees when they are due while still “losing” the sweepstakes, instead of just not entering it.

-nodge

 

[jerseygirl]

Hey handsome devil ... please don't tell me you actually believe there are weekly winners? I thought you were smarter than that! :hysterical:

But, since you've so diligently researched the rules, I would think a well crafted letter to the General Counsel (public information) is in order. And, if you can prove you sent your first request prior to the Feb 1 deadline, that's even better!

I've never even received my 50% off certificates (or whatever they were). I sent one "mystarcentral" inquiry ... but we all know one "mystarcentral" inquiry never works and I didn't care enough to send the four (or is it five) required follow-up inquiries!

Now -- having said all this mean stuff about the "mystarcentral" people, I think it's only fair that I praise Starwood (don't fall over people) for the excellent and courteous service I received this week when I contacted an executive directly. It's a shame one has to do that though -- can you imagine what it would be like if 150K (?) owners all started contacting executives directly due to the non (or nonsensical) responses we receive (or don't receive) from mystarcentral?

 

[gregb]

I recently received the audited financial reports for WKORVN for 2008 and 2009. Germain to this thread, it appears that the letter and contest asking folks to pay their maintenance fees early really worked. It appears that there was about a 10 fold increase in the maintenance fees paid early.

Greg

 

[nodge]

Dear [nodge, you handsome devil you],

Thank you for contacting Association Management. As per your request, below are the names of the prize winners for the "pay early, win big, win now" sweepstakes. This information will also be posted on the website very shortly.

PAY EARLY. WIN BIG. WIN NOW.
PRIZEWINNERS

Drawing #1
Christine Gerichten 100,000 Starwood Preferred Guest® Starpoints®
Mark Lubin 50,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Barbara Montaruli 25,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
James Mohr 10,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Michael Garvey 5,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
William Talkington Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin St. John Resort & Villas, USVI
Paul Hess Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas, Lahaina, HI
Dan Christy Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort, Princeville, HI
Karen Ventrell Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort, Cancun, Mexico
Marjorie Dunkiel Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Sheraton Vistana Villages, Orlando, FL

Drawing #2
Gregory Schroeder 100,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Linda Duffy 50,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Richard Allen Loop 25,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
James Duncan 10,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Joyce E. Allegro 5,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
John Ratico, Jr Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin St. John Resort & Villas, USVI
Thomas Kellerman, Sr. Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas, Lahaina, HI
Jerome C. Cohan Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort, Princeville, HI
Michael D. Harding Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort, Cancun, Mexico
John Caley Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Sheraton Vistana Villages, Orlando, FL

Drawing #3
Ricardo Larraburel 100,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Stephan Yannoni 50,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Timothy Case 25,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Mary Abbenante 10,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
Harold Abbott 5,000 Starwood Preferred Guest Starpoints
John Ackelson Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin St. John Resort & Villas, USVI
Dennis Schneider Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Ka’anapali Ocean Resort Villas, Lahaina, HI
Harland Kraft Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Princeville Ocean Resort, Princeville, HI
Patricia Barron Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Westin Lagunamar Ocean Resort, Cancun, Mexico
Hams Abbo Seven (7) consecutive nights accommodations at The Sheraton Vistana Villages, Orlando, FL

If you have any other questions please feel free to contact us back at 1-800-729-8246.

Sincerely,

[name redacted]
SVO Management Inc.

Well I guess that whole "privacy" thing was just a big ol' pile of nothin' after all. Does anyone know any of these winners?

Also, the same day I got this message, SPG credited my SPG account with 10,000 Starpoints. I've got a call into SPG asking wassup with that. I'm hoping SVO was so thankful that I pointed out the problems with its sweepstakes that it wanted to reward me with these points (yah right), but since the message next to those Starpoints says "SPG AX 1ST PURCHASE CONSMR (SW)," I'm thinking these free points will turn out to be a very bad thing considering I haven't applied for any new credit cards lately . . . ..

-nodge

 

[jarta]

From what Gregb says, at least at WKORV-N, it appears early collections of MF went up 10-fold 2008 to 2009.

Plus, contrary to speculation posted here, actual people won actual prizes. I would think those are good things. ... eom

 

[Fredm]

I recently received the audited financial reports for WKORVN for 2008 and 2009. Germain to this thread, it appears that the letter and contest asking folks to pay their maintenance fees early really worked. It appears that there was about a 10 fold increase in the maintenance fees paid early.

Greg

That's great! Certainly can't hurt to have cash flow sooner.
I assume Starwood was picking up the cost of the contest prizes awarded.