2010 Maintenance Fee Thread

[LAX Mom]

Henry-
That's over $400 per night in MF! Wow, I know it's a great resort but that's a lot to pay in MF. What do those units rent for?

 

[HenryT]

Henry-
That's over $400 per night in MF! Wow, I know it's a great resort but that's a lot to pay in MF. What do those units rent for?

If you rent through the resort they charge over $1,000 per night (Thanksgiving week which I own) for a 2 bed lockoff unit. The average rental rate for an owner direct rental ranges from $4,000 - $5,000 per week ($572 - $714 per night). I usually rent out the smaller 1 bedroom unit and use the larger 1 bed unit myself which cuts my cost in half.

 

[jerseygirl]

Our late May week rents for about $6300 through atlantisfamilyfun. An owner would net about $4400 after their 30% commission.

Through the resort, the rent is also about $6300 right now, but you would also have to pay almost $1000 in taxes, service fees, etc for a total of just under $7300.

I'm sure the differential is much greater for those who own better weeks, e.g., 4th of July through atlantisfamilyfun is a little over $7000, and there's nothing available through the resort itself. Easter would be a great week to own ... atlantisfamilyfun is asking over $10000 and the owner would net $7000.

Not as good of a rental return as there used to be, that's for sure.

Oops -- sorry, Henry beat me to it!

 

[LAX Mom]

Thanks Henry & jerseygirl-
That makes those MF's not so bad if you use it yourself or rent it out. I've stayed there twice, once on the Last Minute Rentals (1 bedroom for $700) and once on an II exchange (obtained during Flexchange). It is a wonderful place and if you could visit every year I can see why you'd want to own a week!

 

[jw0]

Phase 2 HRA

I also got my "proposed" MF bill for Harborside today. I own at phase 2.

These amounts include the $109 SVN fee, which, after all, is mandatory.

1 BR - $1342.27
1 BR premium - $1436.72
2 BR - $1613.66
2 BR lockout - $2558.14
3 BR lockout - $2735.63

I'll have to look closer at my bill last year, but I think the increase is less than 10% (for my 2BR EOY unit).

Looks like the BOD meeting will be on Friday, Dec. 18th.

- John.

 

[komosatp]

I also got my "proposed" MF bill for Harborside today. I own at phase 2.

These amounts include the $109 SVN fee, which, after all, is mandatory.

1 BR - $1342.27
1 BR premium - $1436.72
2 BR - $1613.66
2 BR lockout - $2558.14
3 BR lockout - $2735.63

I'll have to look closer at my bill last year, but I think the increase is less than 10% (for my 2BR EOY unit).

Looks like the BOD meeting will be on Friday, Dec. 18th.

- John.

I got my budget too. I'm in phase 2 as well.

Per my calculations, the increase was 6.8%...2009 was $1,256.76 for the regular one bedroom.

I was watching out for one thing because I was wondering what was going to happen to it: the Atlantis access fee. Per our access deed, it changes based on the CPI. Which means it should have gone down since there's been some deflation over the past year.

But I hadn't noticed before that its based on the BAHAMIAN CPI, which showed an increase. So the Atlantis access fee increased 4.3%.

 

[gnipgnop]

Sheraton Broadway Plantation.........$881.62, Outragous!

 

[pathways25]

Westin Princeville Ocean Resort Villas (2BR lockoff)

Current Year Charges
Maintenance Fee(s) $ 2,155.37
Tax - If Applicable $ 0.00
Membership Fee - If Applicable $ 113.53
Other* $ 100.00
Interest $ 0.00
Late Fees $ 0.00
ARDA ROC PAC Contrib.** $ 5.00

Sub-Total
Current Year Charges $ 2,373.90
Less Payments*** $ 0.00
Total Due $ 2,373.90

Projected Fees for Next Year $ 2,368.90


Last year's MF's were $2250.99 + $100 (other), a 4% decrease!

 

[jhd]

I'm in six different Starwood associations and I NEVER recall seeing a true BOD election sheet. I stopped returning my proxies years ago as they contain no information that allows me to make a valid decision.

With all my other timeshares, I receive:

• First, a solicitation -- everyone is welcome to run
• A BIO sheet with room for a position statement -- you return this if you want to run
• Then, with the annual meeting notice, we see all the BIO sheets and position statements and are able to make REAL choices

There's a lot of things I don't like about Starwood's management and administration. But, I think this is one of the most important, if not the most important, item that needs changed.

Would be nice if Owners had at least one representative on the Owners Association. I received the Proxy form 12/9/09, and had the option to name a proxy holder who would be at the meeting or the Directors would vote for me. Oh, and my proxy had to be received by 12/14/09.

Starwood doesn't make it easy.

 

[Shon_t]

Certainly most Starwood and Marriott properties are a step above most Worldmark properties so they are not comparable in quality. As a result, the level of maintenance fees at Worldmark should be (and is) lower.

Are they really though...or is this just another way for people to justify paying exorbitant MF fees?

For the sake of argument, I would concur that they are often nicer units...but 2-3 times nicer ( in comparison with paying 2-3 times the MFs that would be paid at Worldmark)? It seems like Worldmark owners seem to have similar trading power on RCI or II, and if they are staying at a Marriott or Starwood property, Who is getting the better deal?

I think these fee hikes are outrageous...especially since hotel and resort rental prices have actually dropped substantially this year. Global average Hotel rental prices in 2008 dropped 12%, and in the first half of 2009 dropped 17%. In fact...in 2008 prices were only 1% above the 2004 rate.

So...if prices for rentals have basically been going down roughly 28% over the last two years...why are MFs going up by double digits?

Many of us bought into the timeshare idea, thinking that with the average annual increase in hotel rental prices, we were somehow locking in some value. I wasn't naive enough to think I would beat inflation (that's just a sales gimmic), but I would at least think that over the long run, there would be some sort of value owning vs. renting.

Instead...if there is inventory, someone off the street can walk into the Maui resort and rent a 2 bedroom at $120 per night...($840 per week) and somebody that owns the unit is paying $1200 or more...EVERY YEAR. (This is a real example, but not exactly fair since they went in off season...still...I think it makes a valid point.)

When does ownership stop making sense?

I figure my MFs (not counting the original purchase price) save me about 50% over the cost of a rental, but in the last year...rental prices have come down so dramatically, in some hard hit areas...it is almost a wash! If I include the initial purchase price, it will take years before I actually break even...and that is only assuming that rental prices climb at a higher rate than my MFs. The less disparity between the rental rate and the MFs, ...the longer it will take for me to break even, if at all.

Some of the fees are getting so high...it wont be much longer before they are pretty much comparable to what regular rental prices are.

 

[Shon_t]

Just doing some quick calculations...if I just used my timeshare for the two weeks that I own...based on current rental prices in relation to the MFs, it would take me about 12 years to break even (strictly in a financial sense). Fortunately...I bought resell...If I actually bought from the developer...it would take substantially longer.

Of course...there are many other variables that could increase or decrease the time it would take to break even. If I use quite a bit of time making last minute rental bookings using owner rates...even though I am spending money...I am still spending less than what I could rent at regular rates for.

Of course...if MFs continue to climb...while rental rates continue to drop...I might never get out of the hole!

 

[DanCali]

Shon_t - I'm among the most vocal people blasting MF increases so I think we are on the same page...

Are they really though...or is this just another way for people to justify paying exorbitant MF fees?

For the sake of argument, I would concur that they are often nicer units...but 2-3 times nicer ( in comparison with paying 2-3 times the MFs that would be paid at Worldmark)? It seems like Worldmark owners seem to have similar trading power on RCI or II, and if they are staying at a Marriott or Starwood property, Who is getting the better deal?

My point regarding Worldmark was that I can justify higher MF levels if the properties are nicer, but I percentage increases should be similar (you totally skipped over this point). Increases in MFs are due to higher labor costs, energy costs etc and should affect resorts roughly at the same proportion.

I haven't stayed at Worldmark properties yet (will be at one in 3 weeks) so I can't really compare with SVO, but if you look at reviews on TUG you will see that many Worldmarks have ratings between 5 and 8 (some are higher) while for SVO resorts Sheratons are between 8 and 9 and Westins are generally above 9. So it's hard to say quality is comparable. If you measure it by quality of trades in II, that's probably not a good measure since most SVO owners do not buy to trade with II (see survey results)

When does ownership stop making sense?

As to when does ownership stop making sense - it depends what you think about MF increases. In my opinion if they stabilize to CPI levels it probably still makes sense. If they grow even at 5% (let alone 15%) a year then it's a matter of time before resale values go to zero at which point ownership is a liability (some resorts are already there). In other words, don't count on your heirs getting something of value - they may beg you to will it to the HOA...

Some resorts like WKV Platinum season still have substantial value because you can get the most bang for your buck with internal trades. Whether that will last that's a different question... Other resorts like WKORV/N, WPORV, WSJ, HRA are fantastic but in my opinion MFs are at levels that the "upper middle class" (probably Starwood's target market) would find it hard to justify paying so it significantly limits the potential market. And even if they would pay those MFs, they certainly would want to see a ceiling to increases and would not want to pay a high upfront cost to the developer or a reseller. Hence the resale prices we are seeing...

From what I see at SVO I find it hard to believe MF increases will stabilize at most resorts and I am in the process of "rebalancing" my portfolio accordingly.

 

[Shon_t]

I think we ARE on the same page.

I also completely agree with your point about the MFs increases needing to be similar in increase.

I haven't stayed at Worldmark properties yet (will be at one in 3 weeks) so I can't really compare with SVO, but if you look at reviews on TUG you will see that many Worldmarks have ratings between 5 and 8 (some are higher) while for SVO resorts Sheratons are between 8 and 9 and Westins are generally above 9. So it's hard to say quality is comparable. If you measure it by quality of trades in II, that's probably not a good measure since most SVO owners do not buy to trade with II (see survey results)

Fair enough...and I wasn't disputing what you said...I was only asking a related question:

If an SVO resort has a Tug rating of 8, it is worth paying twice as much as a Worldmark property that has a TUG rating of 7?

I wasn't really trying to compare the two resorts as to which one is better, but rather point out the large disparity between the MFs for both groups.

Now some people might argue that yes, in terms of service, location, ambiance, etc., it is well worth paying double the MFs. I certainly can't dispute that..it is a personal choice.

But I still wonder how a neutral party, with no money tied up in the the whole process might look at it. Sure...one resort is nicer...but twice as nice?

Of course...if the MFs weren't going up in one resort system by 12% or more a year...and the other by 5%, we wouldn't even be having this conversation!

 

[LisaRex]

As far as the resorts being "nicer" then that would (and is) reflected in the purchase price and the reserve fund. After all, granite is more expensive than laminate, Westin heavenly beds are more expensive than an off-brand, a pirate ship pool is more expensive to build than a rectangular pool, etc.

But as far as everyday maintenance goes, cleaning a 1200 foot unit should cost the same whether you have granite countertop and stainless steel appliances or Formica countertops and olive green appliances.

 

[Shon_t]

As far as the resorts being "nicer" then that would (and is) reflected in the purchase price and the reserve fund. After all, granite is more expensive than laminate, Westin heavenly beds are more expensive than an off-brand, a pirate ship pool is more expensive to build than a rectangular pool, etc.

But as far as everyday maintenance goes, cleaning a 1200 foot unit should cost the same whether you have granite countertop and stainless steel appliances or Formica countertops and olive green appliances.

Don't you need to buy special granite cleaner? In my experience stainless is a little more difficult to clean as well

Seriously though...I get your point and agree. Even if you suppose the maintenance fee is higher due to more staff, and better service, I just don't think it justifies fees that are 2-3 x as high.

 

[Take Action]

HOA Protections for florida owners, write today

My name is Abby Ross and Senator Aronberg asked me to follow up with you on your e-mail to him as it relates to your timeshare concern.



I consulted with some of our HOA experts to learn what is happening this year, and was provided with the following info:=



Several pieces of legislation are being worked on to deal with the economic consequences for individual homeowners as described in the e-mail. Sponsors already working on these issues include Senators Ring, Fasano and Sobel, and Representatives Robaina and Ambler, so far. They are already working hard to find the best solution to help remedy this problem.



I’d be happy to put you in touch with or provide any contact info for these members if that would help you. I hope you find this helpful.



Please let me know if we can assist with anything further at this time.



Thanks for your time,



Abby



Abby Ross

Legislative Aide

Senator Dave Aronberg

Florida Senate District 27

Ross.Abby.S27@flsenate.gov

(561) 433-2627 Phone

(561) 434-3995 Fax

6415 Lake Worth Road, Suite 210

Greenacres, FL 33463

 

[oneohana]

WLOR mf's

Just got my mf's for WLOR

1 bedroom premium EY: $740.5
Studio EOY: $219.06

Does not include SVN membership.

They actually went down

Please do not rain on my parade and mention the other SVN mf's.
At least 1 of my mf's went down. 1 is better than none.

 

[LisaRex]

Oneohana, I am very glad that your WLR MFs went down. Good for you!

 

[DanCali]

It's amazing how Starwood finds ways to lower MFs at resorts where there is still an active sales effort - like WPORV and WLR. Where there is a will there is a way.

I don't buy the delinquencies story for a second. WKORV owners can always sell a unit for a 10K-15K and the market is quite liquid. There is no need to ruin credit histories by not paying. Ditto for SVV... WPORV and WLR (voluntary) has lower valuations and less demand yet all owners pay MFs and costs go down? Great for those owners but the delinquencies story is b______t imo.

 

[Bobby_Fletcher]

I don't buy the delinquencies story for a second.

Let's for a second assume the story is legit:

If we are all chippng in to cover the delinquencies, shouldn't the defaulted weeks come back to the HOA, rather than the developer? They resell the defaulted weeks and make pure profit. Proceeds from that 2nd sale should come back and reimburse us all.

 

[DanCali]

Let's for a second assume the story is legit:

If we are all chippng in to cover the delinquencies, shouldn't the defaulted weeks come back to the HOA, rather than the developer? They resell the defaulted weeks and make pure profit. Proceeds from that 2nd sale should come back and reimburse us all.

At WKORV, where the resale value is still 4-5 times MFs the HOA should foreclose and resell the weeks. Even if they did it via a broker they should come out well ahead after commissions and foreclosure costs.

Instead what I believe has been happening is that they are renting them using Starwood. I've posted my theory on what happens here in other places, but in a nutshell after Starwood deducts a 50% commission and 7 housekeeping charges not much is left over to cover the delinquencies...

A recent report from the Board meeting this week posted in the Starwood forum says that they are planning to start foreclosing and reselling. In my view, that is good news at this resort - but let's see if they follow through.

 

[ada903]

I own a two bedroom in the Sheraton Vistana Courts section, and so far I have not received my maintenance fee bill, which is typically due January 1st. I called and I was told statements should be going out soon? I wonder if I should just make a payment equal to last year's fees, to avoid late payment fees. My account online shows zero balance due. Did anyone who owns Courts receive their maintenance fee bill? Also, they are supposed to bill the third installment of the refurbishment fee due January 1st, and that one didn't come either, nor does it show online.

 

[mariawolf]

Harborside Maintenance fees

Boy didn't take them long to get out--annual meeting on the 18th--less than a week ago and due January 18th--clearly they were ready to be dropped in the mail--$2979.24 for two bedroom lockoff and $1441.14 for the smaller one bedroom--both phase 1

 

[csudell]

harborside 1 bedroom premium 1631.05 in phase 1.

251.37 per ownership week increase due to uncollectible accounts
125.00 per ownership week increase due to increase in reserves for improvements.

werent last year's fees due in february?

 

[WalnutBaron]

It's amazing how Starwood finds ways to lower MFs at resorts where there is still an active sales effort - like WPORV and WLR. Where there is a will there is a way.

I don't buy the delinquencies story for a second. WKORV owners can always sell a unit for a 10K-15K and the market is quite liquid. There is no need to ruin credit histories by not paying. Ditto for SVV... WPORV and WLR (voluntary) has lower valuations and less demand yet all owners pay MFs and costs go down? Great for those owners but the delinquencies story is b______t imo.

While I would never think of being an apologist for Starwood (and I agree that MF increases overall are outrageous), WPORV MF's increased by nearly 20% from 2008 to 2009. This would tend to undermine your assertion that they conveniently found a way to decrease MF's for a resort which is still actively selling unsold weeks.