[ 2008 ] SVO eBay Sales

[jarta]

DanCali, ... "most resale buyers probably do not buy WKV just to vacation there all the time. If they liked Scottsdale that much they can buy SDO for a fraction of the price and lower MFs.

I doubt you have ever been to either WKV or SDO.

SDO is old, tired, sleepy and good for trading. The drab lobby is populated by what appear to be nursing home residents. SDO is located close to nothing and is in the middle of and surrounded by new car dealerships. You must have a car there to go anywhere or do anything. However, SDO has a quaint charm that seems to appeal to people seeking absolute peace and quiet.

WKV is also good for trading. But, it is much newer, better furnished, better designed, better views, has a hotel and a very upscale shopping center within walking distance of the resort where you can go shopping or find a restaurant (the resort will shuttle you to either), has better pools, a spa, golf, tennis and people own to go there. WKV is in a league with WKORV, Lagunamar, Desert Willow, Riverbend and Harborside.

My wife took one walk around SDO, became depressed and said: "let's get out of here." In a pinch it would do as basic, no-frills lodging. But, side by side, there is no comparison.

There is a reason for the disparity in resale prices and it is not just that WKV is mandatory. ... eom

 

[gmarine]

amundson, ... Here's a link to eBay's policy about shill bidding:

"Shill bidding
Bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to other bidders. Shill bidding is not allowed on eBay."

http://pages.ebay.com/help/account/glossary.html#S

Yet, it goes on and on and on.

That's one reason why not very many people trust eBay. Good deals are possible, but there is too much trickery for most people to venture into the swamp.

eBay, IMO, is merely a place for panic or liquidation sales of timeshares and bottom feeder purchasers (like me). eBay does not make the market in timeshares. Guys like JAMES1975NY or Fredm do. The 5-10 Starwood forced or panicked sales a week on eBay are a tiny part of the timeshare market. If you think Starwood is slimy, you should try dealing with some of the postcard companies on resales. That's real slime. ... eom

Not many people trust EBAY ? Yes, as shown by the small amount of people who buy and sell on EBAY. Seriously, you obviously dont have a lot of experience with EBAY which I understand, but EBAY does do a good job to try to prevent shill bidding.

Any EBAY seller with a good rating and good feedback isnt likely to risk suspension over shill bidding anyway.

EBAY has several ways in which they try to prevent shill bidding. They track IP addresses to try to prevent sellers from bidding on their own items with a different account and EBAY tracks bidders who have a history of bidding with only one or two sellers. Not to mention EBAY will check the history of all bidders on any auction with as little as one tip that shill bidding may have occurred.

If a seller is determined to have been shill bidding their account will be suspended from putting up auctions. They will also lose any Power Seller Discount as well as Top Seller status. Power Seller Discount on a timeshare seller could be several hundred dollars per month and up depending on how many are sold and the final selling price. Not something that a seller is going usually risk losing.

Abnormal selling prices happen all the time. It doesnt mean a shill bidder was at work. Uninformed buyers as well as buyers who refuse to be outbid account for many abnormal selling prices. Also keep in mind that on EBAY real estate auctions carry a disclaimer that they are not binding, so you will also get bidders who knowing it is not binding, will not follow through with the purchase.

Shill bidding does happen but it is more likely to happen with a new seller than with an established seller.

 

[DanCali]

I doubt you have ever been to either WKV or SDO.

True. And that is why I qualified my statement with "In my opinion" which I am sure you noticed but omitted when you quoted me...

In my opinion, most resale buyers probably do not buy WKV just to vacation there all the time...

There is a reason for the disparity in resale prices and it is not just that WKV is mandatory. ... eom

And even though I have not been to either resort I'm still entitled to my opinion...

If you didn't like the SDO comparison, then we compare with Marriott Canyon Villas, which, from what I read, is maybe a small step down from WKV but certainly better than SDO. You can buy the Marriott at much less than WKV, and pay 25% lower maintenance fees, and get the 24 day Marriott priority in II... So, in my opinion, it's hard to justify WKV Platinum prices unless you view it as a substitute for Hawaii properties, which comes from its mandatory aspect.

Can we at least agree that SVV is 200,000% more expensive than SVR, despite much higher maintenance fees, mainly because the former is mandatory and the later voluntary? I believe this is analogous. Yes, WKV is much nicer than SDO - I've been to other Westins and Sheratons and can imagine the difference. That said, I still believe (again, my opinion) that if WKV was a voluntary resort the resale price would be similar to SDO. Any difference in quality would is already accounted for by the WKV owner paying 80% more in maintenance fees - probably in perpetuity. I sincerely doubt you'd see much difference in the resale price.

In any case, it's a counterfactual at this point so we'll probably never know...

 

[DanCali]

Not many people trust EBAY ? Yes, as shown by the small amount of people who buy and sell on EBAY. Seriously, you obviously dont have a lot of experience with EBAY which I understand, but EBAY does do a good job to try to prevent shill bidding.

Any EBAY seller with a good rating and good feedback isnt likely to risk suspension over shill bidding anyway.

EBAY has several ways in which they try to prevent shill bidding. They track IP addresses to try to prevent sellers from bidding on their own items with a different account and EBAY tracks bidders who have a history of bidding with only one or two sellers. Not to mention EBAY will check the history of all bidders on any auction with as little as one tip that shill bidding may have occurred.

If a seller is determined to have been shill bidding their account will be suspended from putting up auctions. They will also lose any Power Seller Discount as well as Top Seller status. Power Seller Discount on a timeshare seller could be several hundred dollars per month and up depending on how many are sold and the final selling price. Not something that a seller is going usually risk losing.

Abnormal selling prices happen all the time. It doesnt mean a shill bidder was at work. Uninformed buyers as well as buyers who refuse to be outbid account for many abnormal selling prices. Also keep in mind that on EBAY real estate auctions carry a disclaimer that they are not binding, so you will also get bidders who knowing it is not binding, will not follow through with the purchase.

Shill bidding does happen but it is more likely to happen with a new seller than with an established seller.

A couple of Finance Ph.Ds did some research and estimate that somewhere between 1%-2% of eBay bids are shill bids, so it's not an inconsquential amount.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=616782 (forthcoming in Journal of Economic Behavior and Organization)

A "good" shill bidder doesn't shill bid to win the auction and offer a second chance to the next bidder. Their goal actually is to bid in small increment just high enough to uncover the highest bidder's highest bid. Since people bid in round numbers, this can work as long as they don't get caught.

However it is true that, due to reputation and trust issues, this is something eBay wants and works hard to prevent.

 

[jarta]

DanCali, ... The article is over 3 years old. Whatever shill bidding was in November of 2006, it's very rampant now. Perhaps other sellers read the article and decided to use it.

Here's the title of the llinked article: "EBay's Proxy System: A License to Shill." Sort of James Bond-like? lol!

But, in your link, here's what the abstract of the article says:

"Abstract:
We introduce a bidding strategy which allows the seller to extract the full surplus of the high bidder in eBay auctions. We call this a Discover-and-Stop bidding strategy and estimate that 1.39% of all bids in eBay auctions are placed by sellers (or accomplices) who execute this strategy. We argue that this kind of shill bidding is unnecessarily effective due to eBay's proxy system and the predictability of other bidders' bids. We show that eBay could slightly modify its auction mechanism to reduce the shilling we describe. We also model eBay auctions with shill bidding and find that, in equilibrium, eBay's profits are higher with shilling than without it. "

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=616782

Here's a Forbes article from 2000 about shill bidding on "Sleaze Bay": http://www.forbes.com/asap/2000/1127/134.html

Read the first comment in this 2008 blog. It talks about eBay's allowing hiding bidders identities, exactly what happens in recent shill bidding: http://www.worldlawdirect.com/forum/law-wiki/5971-ebay-auction.html

It's gotten much worse since 2006. It's changed and morphed. It's become more sophisticated. But, eBay's a great place to pick up a timeshare for cheap - as long as you're careful and realize the scams are out there. ... eom

 

[Fredm]

Why stop at metals or gemstones. Think of the marketing power you could get out of being the only timeshare with kryptonite, or unobtanium seasons!

Michael

WOW! Kriptonite. I can feel the power.
Plutonium has punch also.

 

[DavidnRobin]

perhaps this discussion would be better in a eBay buying/selling thread - this is suppose to be focused on completed eBay auctions (see post #1) - with the caveat (of many) that some of these can be (and are) shill bids...

 

[alexadeparis]

I'm convinced that shill bidding took place in the auction of Westin Mission Hills I won last night. It's a Gold (low) season Eoy Odd 2 Bed L/O. I won it for $51.00, closing costs of $224.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...74976&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...74976&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1

Total price w/ all closing costs was $275.00. I suspect shill bidding because earlier in the week, I had lost the auction to another bidder, who a day or so later, retracted due to "wrong amount". Since the auction was private, I have no idea who bid, but I have a gut feeling that the "bid" and the subsequent "retraction" were simply to find out what my max bid was. It was 75 bucks, and, what do you know, a few hours before the auction ends, a bidder,again private, most likely the seller again, makes a bid that pushes my bid to exactly $275 w/ closing costs.

I have over 500 feedback on Ebay,99% of which came from purchases (I rarely sell on Ebay), so I have a lot of experience. I told my husband about it and we agreed it was likely a shill. BTW, that was before I opened this thread and saw all this stuff about shill bidding. I only clicked on this thread to see if I got a good deal or not, I Still think I did.

 

[jarta]

amunson, ... "Jarta, this is exactly how it was. I hadn't heard the term shill bidding, but from your description of shill bidding, that is what it was, to a tee and all in the name of charity too."

Here is a recent example of shill bidding on eBay.

This seller sells luxury watches. Most sellers are lucky in this economy to get any bids at all. This seller, theprestigeboutique, always gets 20-35 bids on every item auctioned. The item is a Pierre Kunz high grade watch. It has been listed several times and high bids have been made - always by the automatic bidder at the end.

Here's the listing that expired on February 28. Auction price; $9,850 with 24 bids:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280466521442&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Here's the relisting on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pierre-Kunz-18K...ViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item439dbe087a

Please note that the watch has now been relisted as a "Buy Now or Best Offer."

Here's a list of all the seller's current items:

http://shop.ebay.com/theprestigeboutique/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340

He lists them as "No Reserve" auctions, but the automatic shill bidding is the reserve. Then, if he can't get people to meet his "second offer" due to "a buyer who won't close the deal," he will reoffer and reoffer and reoffer the watch in another "No Reserve" auction. If, after a few months, the watch doesn't sell, he switches to a "Buy Now or Best Offer" listing.

eBay will never get full accepatnce by the public until these type of scams are better policed by eBay.

But, eBay's a good place to pick up a panic or liquidation sale of a timeshare. ... eom

 

[DavidnRobin]

AGAIN... perhaps this discussion on eBay shill bidding would be better in a different thread...

 

[gmarine]

amunson, ... "Jarta, this is exactly how it was. I hadn't heard the term shill bidding, but from your description of shill bidding, that is what it was, to a tee and all in the name of charity too."

Here is a recent example of shill bidding on eBay.

This seller sells luxury watches. Most sellers are lucky in this economy to get any bids at all. This seller, theprestigeboutique, always gets 20-35 bids on every item auctioned. The item is a Pierre Kunz high grade watch. It has been listed several times and high bids have been made - always by the automatic bidder at the end.

Here's the listing that expired on February 28. Auction price; $9,850 with 24 bids:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280466521442&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Here's the relisting on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pierre-Kunz-18K...ViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item439dbe087a

Please note that the watch has now been relisted as a "Buy Now or Best Offer."

Here's a list of all the seller's current items:

http://shop.ebay.com/theprestigeboutique/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340

He lists them as "No Reserve" auctions, but the automatic shill bidding is the reserve. Then, if he can't get people to meet his "second offer" due to "a buyer who won't close the deal," he will reoffer and reoffer and reoffer the watch in another "No Reserve" auction. If, after a few months, the watch doesn't sell, he switches to a "Buy Now or Best Offer" listing.

eBay will never get full accepatnce by the public until these type of scams are better policed by eBay.

But, eBay's a good place to pick up a panic or liquidation sale of a timeshare. ... eom

A seller will not be able to get away with shill bidding consistently, especially on high value items. As I said previously, EBAY tracks IP addresses among other things to control shill bidding. A seller could not consistenly use the same account to shill bid on his own auctions. And a seller with perfect feedback is not going to risk account suspension and policy violations that will affect the final values he pays. The final values fees of the seller you reference would amount to thousands per months, of which they would risk a 20% discount every month by shill bidding.

Shill bidding is mainly done by inexperienced sellers who have nothing to lose and dont know any better. Experienced sellers with perfect feedback are not the ones to worry about.

And its called a Second Chance Offer. If your going to pretend you know something about the way EBAY works at least get the terms right.

 

[DavidnRobin]

wow - this sounds like a thread that should be on TUG Buying/Selling or TUG Lounge...

 

[jarta]

george, ... "If your going to pretend you know something about the way EBAY works at least get the terms right."

OK, OK, it's "Second Chance Offer," not "second offer."

Did you even look at what the links bring up? IMO, shill bidding (automatic or no) is rampant on eBay. We will just have to disagree about this.

And, as I keep saying, eBay is a great place to pick up a timeshare for an extremely low price because of panic or liquidation selling. ... eom

 

[cdn_traveler]

I agree with David, the bidding and shills discussion should be moved to the buying forum with its own thread.

 

[K2Quick]

WKV EOY Even Platinum 148k SO Buy-It-Now at $5,499:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-Westin-Kier...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19ba9b94d0

This one's still active, but seems like a really good bargain considering the last two annual units went for $17k and $19k. I'm guessing this one goes quickly. Alas, I'm not in the market.

 

[DavidnRobin]

WKV EOY Even Platinum 148k SO Buy-It-Now at $5,499:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-Westin-Kier...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19ba9b94d0

This one's still active, but seems like a really good bargain considering the last two annual units went for $17k and $19k. I'm guessing this one goes quickly. Alas, I'm not in the market.

Well... it is now - lol - you were right - and they got free extra advertisment

 

[DanCali]

WKV EOY Even Platinum 148k SO Buy-It-Now at $5,499:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-Westin-Kier...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19ba9b94d0

This one's still active, but seems like a really good bargain considering the last two annual units went for $17k and $19k. I'm guessing this one goes quickly. Alas, I'm not in the market.

Damn - I saw this one hour too late...

I'm not in the market too but I would have snapped it without even thinking twice and probably fliped it. It's as close as you can get to an arbitrage opportunity. Where else can you make an (almost guaranteed) 50%+ return in two months?

 

[K2Quick]

I'm not in the market too but I would have snapped it without even thinking twice and probably fliped it. It's as close as you can get to an arbitrage opportunity. Where else can you make an (almost guaranteed) 50%+ return in two months?

If I didn't have to answer to my wife, I probably would have done just that. This particular seller seems to price a lot of inventory at buy-it-now prices that are half what typical auctions go for.

 

[jarta]

K2Quick, ... I won an eBay auction for a greattimesharebargains property last Fall. It was for a Platinum week at Bella. I bid because Bella is mandatory.

Jessica Miltier handles the money collection after the auction is completed. She works for the selling agent, not the closing company. The procedure was very mechanized. However, because (then) the seller's closing company would not arrange for title insurance and the seller wanted all money to be sent to the selling agent, I backed out of the deal.

greattimesharebargains tried to initiate a "non-payor" strike against me through eBay. However, when I said to eBay that the money went to the selling agent (not the closing company) and that the closing company was not licensed in Washington and could not provide title insurance, the non-payment complaint was dropped.

greattimesharebargains is the selling agent (and obviously related) to a purchaser of timeshares in foreclosure proceedings and by deed in lieu of foreclosure or "post card." Callahan & Zalinsky Associates, LLC. It was on the estoppel letter I obtained from Jessica (actually a nice lady) for the Bella property.

The problem with foreclosures is that you have to be careful about the proper steps being taken in the foreclosure process. If the proper steps have not been taken, the deed may later be set aside. So, IMO, it's important to get title insurance with a purchase from someone who acquired title in a foreclosure proceeding.

The fact that foreclosures can be picked up cheaply is the reason greattimesharebargains can sell so cheaply. The buyer is in (and out) very quickly so that the money can be recirculated into the next foreclosure buying opportunity. It's a "rate of return" business where the worth of the timeshare is really irrelevant if the price set in the eBay auction gives an acceptable return on the investment.

The ads now say that title insurance can be purchased for a fairly high fee from the closing company. The fee is probably higher than normal because of the risk of claims from the foreclosure.

Bid and buy. But, be very careful. ... eom

 

[jarta]

Somebody at Callahan & Zalinsky Associates, LLC has a sense of humor. The characters are right out of the movie "Tommy Boy."

Chris Farley played Tommy Callahan; Dan Akroyd played Ray Zalinsky. lol!

http://www.bcgov.net/MasterInEquity/foreclosureWebDisplay.php

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1T9TJFRTYZQDG

 

[abdibile]

WKV EOY Even Platinum 148k SO Buy-It-Now at $5,499:

http://cgi.ebay.com/2BR-Westin-Kier...dZViewItemQQptZTimeshares?hash=item19ba9b94d0

This one's still active, but seems like a really good bargain considering the last two annual units went for $17k and $19k. I'm guessing this one goes quickly. Alas, I'm not in the market.

The quoted MFs of $1350 are per use, so half of it billed every year, correct? (wrong info in the ad)

But they want reimbursement of the full $1350 for 2010 usage where getting a good wek is probably hard as 51/52 probably booked out so not much left in Platinums season.

Adding this "lost" 2010 usage, the price is still low, but nothing like a sure 50% flipping profit or what do I get wrong?

 

[Ken555]

But they want reimbursement of the full $1350 for 2010 usage where getting a good wek is probably hard as 51/52 probably booked out so not much left in Platinums season.

It is common to pay for the current year usage costs with a new purchase. And, as a mandatory resort, the 148,100 StarOptions for this years usage can be used at any other SVN property within 8 months of arrival date. So, the use is actually quite good for this year, though it all depends on where you would want to visit. And with SVNs recent announcement that you can reserve a short (less than a week) stay now up thru end of November, it makes this a particularly good year to try a SVN ownership.

 

[DavidnRobin]

An entertaining discussing - reminder - do not post open eBay auctions on this thread - this was intended for completed auctions
{and could be construed as skirting TUG rules for advertisements of TS selling... even though I understand this was not the case in this instance...}

btw (as my papa used to say...) - if it sounds to good to be true - then it probably is...
Buyer beware (caveat emptor)

 

[DanCali]

WKORV EY 2BR Platinum (1-50) 148,100 SOs Ocean Front Center (unit 253031) $22,100 (Feb 24, 2010)

seller was redweeks4less

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350319390896

Looks like this one didn't close... relisted a couple of hours ago.

 

[oneohana]

Looks like this one didn't close... relisted a couple of hours ago.

This will be the second time it is relisted. The last one ended on 3/10/10 with a final bid of $16.2K