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[2008] Southcape Resort

NEVMSLLC

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Sou13

You know very well the answers to your post because we discussed them during the two and a half hour meeting you, I and the resort manager had where we answered virtually all of your questions. You've continued to take us to task for answers you say you never got but that's completely untrue. You should know, you were at the meeting and the meeting was at your request. You also agreed that, if you had additional questions, you would contact me and I would be happy to answer them for you. So, why do you post your questions and comments here instead of asking me?

Split week reservations at Southcape Resort are not a "right" but a privilege that was extended to owners when there was availability. There is no mention of split weeks anywhere in the condominium documents and we don't inform owners of split weeks as we're not authorized to even offer split weeks. We've continued the practice on a limited basis as the previous trustees started doing it a few years ago even though it wasn't permitted by the documents. As we improve the rental program and sell the weeks, there will eventually be no availability for a split week reservation. We do make occasional exceptions for owners when we can but we need everyone to understand in advance that splitting your week was never intended nor included in your documents. In fact, at our meeting, you specifically asked me if you could split your week and I told you that we would absolutely consider it depending upon availability and if your fees were current. You might also want to consider that, when you split a week, you take half of two separate weeks and you prevent the resort from renting a full week and generating money from delinquent owners for much needed operating income.

As I also recall, you own a float week. While you are deeded a specific week in a specific unit for ownership purposes, your documents specifically state that your occupancy rights are not for that specific unit but subject to what is available during the floating season when you make your reservation. That is the entire function of a split week and floating time. All of the units currently being renovated are "floating" units and no owner has been denied occupancy at all.

The documents are silent as to when units can be renovated and we schedule renovations during those times when we have units empty. You have a float week and you've been given a high demand week to occupy during your float season (week 7) just as you always have. If you have made a split week reservation for week 7, you have prevented us from renting that week during a time when there is a lot of rental demand. Nevertheless, we confirmed your request for a reservation simply because you are an owner and we try to accommodate owners whenever possible. I can understand why you might not appreciate that and thank us for it but I'm surprised that you're criticizing us for bending over backwards to assist you. You are a deeded float owner and you do have use of a week when you want it in perhaps the highest demand week outside of summer so I frankly do not understand your complaint.
 

Sou13

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Reply to NEVMSLLC

Isn't anyone objecting to not being able to split weeks anymore?

My last opportunity to reserve a split week came in May 2009, before we were notified that "effective immediately" no more split weeks reservations could be made in October.

Meanwhile, NEVMSLLC stated in a published response to Timesharing Today that "The resorts have not been taken away from anyone. Owners still have the same rights they’ve always had."

So now another of the rights we've always had has been taken away.

That's not all. I had a call from Southcape about the unit I've reserved for week 7. The entire building is being renovated, and the unit I reserved won't be completed by week 7.

This is exactly what I've been trying to get deeded owners to notice. If you reserve a unit during a certain week, that unit is supposed to be available because you own that week!

Renovating 18 units at once when they've always been renovated "on a piecemeal basis" means that units will not be available, and to be renovating units during the week of school vacation is a violation of the Master Deed IMVHO.

Last year the pool was being repainted and deeded owners didn't have use of the pool in March. This year, units are being renovated and deeded owners don't have the use of those units.

Hello, is anyone reading these posts?
Glad to see that someone is reading these posts!

Yes, I do acknowledge that the split weeks are not a "right" and that we as float week owners cannot continue to enjoy splitting weeks as the remaining inventory gets sold.

The problem is that the remaining inventory is not being sold and the conversions to "points" not only involve splitting weeks but also I was told by Frank Rose that FAC members can check in on Friday at Southcape!

We don't sell weeks, we sell points.

It's been a year since my close call with Greg Hughes at Southcape Resort and I'm back from my 4-day stay. Here's the latest:

There's a big sign in the clubhouse next to the reception area that gives the impression that if you make an appointment with "owner services" in Unit 32 there are weeks for sale at Southcape and Sandcastle Resorts. The Sandcastle weeks are supposed to be available for the "balance owed" or something to that effect. Because I didn't check in on Saturday, I wasn't offered a $50 gift card at check-in for making an appointment. But Frank in owner services was able to squeeze me in Friday morning, and when he learned that I knew about New England Vacation Services and the FAC he didn't put me through any presentation, just answered or tried to answer my questions.

The first question was, how much are they asking for a week, to which the reply is that they don't sell weeks, they sell points. I hope I get this right because Frank is going to check up on my report. So here goes and you can decide what to make of it:

"Nobody is selling deeded weeks anymore. The United States is the only country where you can buy a deeded week that you own forever. At most you can own a week for 30 years. The timeshare deeded weeks have gone out like the VCR and I won't sell you a VCR either."

Frank is paid by Outfield Marketing to either sell me points for one of the weeks owned by New England Vacation Services or to tell me what a wonderful opportunity I will be missing if I don't convert my deeded week to points in the FAC. New England Vacation Services would supposedly be doing Southcape weeks owners a disservice if they hadn't made a deal with Festiva.

When you enter his office you see one of the beautiful wood-inlaid boat pictures that have been removed from units 1-31. According to Frank that was the only one that hadn't been damaged by guests' children.

Someone put notices under guests' doors for two or three weeks last summer. These notices cost Outfield Marketing big bucks in lost sales. I told Frank that this was all news to me but did ask him to make a copy of one for me, which he did.

According to Frank, there's a lot of misinformation on TUG and it's no longer worth the time to read our discussions. He finds them almost laughable.

I was completely unaware that only owners of units 1-31 have "float" weeks. Weeks in units 32-55 are all fixed weeks. Float weeks are a bad idea which is why units 32-55 are all fixed weeks and have a different master deed. The entire resort needs to be united under one master deed.

Festiva isn't about to "take over" Southcape and the whole idea of complaining to the Attorney General is unfounded according to Frank.

Here's the selling point that I can't comprehend. Southcape Resort has check-in on Saturday but if you are a Festiva points member you can stay from Friday to Sunday and if you reserve less than 30 days in advance you can stay more than 7 nights per year. The reason I argued with him about this is that in order for anyone to stay from Friday to Sunday, there have to be two weeks available and as the weeks get sold that is less likely to happen.

The before and after pictures that were on display at the owners' meeting are now on display in owner services. Everyone is so impressed with what a wonderful job New England Vacations Services has done at Southcape by assessing us for doing it! So New England Vacation Services bought 550 unsold weeks at Southcape Resort at a "fixer-upper" price and then charged the maintenance-fee-paying owners for fixing up their units! And the way they "convinced" weeks owners to convert to points was to tell them that they would not have to pay the special assessments that would have to be levied on weeks owners in order to do it.

Frank used a calculator and found that the owner of 6 float weeks got the best deal. Since this discussion is about what kind of offers weeks owners were being made I can finally report that there is only one base Festiva MF per member and the # of points owned determine what the MF will be per year. While six deeded weeks have six MFs the Festiva member pays one base MF which will be going up this year. The owner of the 6 weeks that were converted to Festiva points paid one conversion fee of $2990 and 6 processing fees of $195. No wonder she sold out to Festiva!
 

e.bram

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Notwithstanding any written document, any continual action (split weeks)between parties can become a legal right . and curtailing such a right by either party could be considered a violation of such a right.
 

Sou13

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Split weeks

I've been working on some meeting minutes and notifications from the early years at Southcape Resort and hope to have them availabe by email soon. According to these documents, split weeks, while not a "right" set forth in the Master Deed, have been a practice for float weeks owners that has existed from the earliest years to the takeover by NEVS. When I discussed our rights with Cliff Hagberg over the telephone a year ago, he was surprised to learn that Southcape float week owners were able to split weeks. At that time he told me that the practices in place would remain in place for the time being, and he emailed me the link to the Master Deed. That link was taken off the Southcape Resort website when it was "improved" but TUGBrian provided us with a link to it which I would like to see as a "sticky" to this discussion.

I find it odd that I should be taken to task for splitting the school vacation week, since by splitting the week I have actually made 4 days available for rent during one of the higher demand weeks! Had I chosen to reserve the entire week for myself, I could have rented it out and charged whatever I could get for it, but now it's available for rent to offset maintenace costs for the Community Association, not NEVS.

Furthermore, I have indicated that I am willing to occupy a unit that may have unmatched drapes and furniture because that's the unit I reserved and that's the unit I expect to be able to occupy.

If anyone wants to pay me a visit, I'll be in unit 21 (508-477-4700x121) the weekend of Feb. 13-15 and would enjoy meeting you!
 

Sou13

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SouthCapers Vol. I No. 2 Summer 1983

Found today in a pile of papers was a publication over a quarter-century old! Of interest to float week owners who have been told we are no longer able to split weeks is "Lead Time Maximum for Float Week Reservations Lengthened to 18 Months" on p. 2:

Lead Time Maximum for Float Week Reservations Lengthened to 18 Months

For owner convenience in planning, Southcape Resort & Club has increased the amount of time a Float Week owner may make reservations in advance from nine months to eighteen months. As an example, you could now make a reservation for Christmas of 1984 as early as the 4th of July, this year.

The minimum advance notice for a stay at the Resort is still only seven days for either of two periods into which a Float Week may be split.

One period may contain three days to include Saturday, Sunday and Monday. The other period, if the owner has elected to split his Float Week, must contain the balance of four days, with check-in on Tuesday and check-out Saturday morning.​

Split weeks may be a "privilege" but this "privilege" has been in practice for more than a quarter of a century which makes it disingenuous to state that "Owners still have the same rights they’ve always had."
 

Sou13

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Sou13

You know very well the answers to your post because we discussed them during the two and a half hour meeting you, I and the resort manager had where we answered virtually all of your questions. You've continued to take us to task for answers you say you never got but that's completely untrue. You should know, you were at the meeting and the meeting was at your request. You also agreed that, if you had additional questions, you would contact me and I would be happy to answer them for you. So, why do you post your questions and comments here instead of asking me?

Split week reservations at Southcape Resort are not a "right" but a privilege that was extended to owners when there was availability. There is no mention of split weeks anywhere in the condominium documents and we don't inform owners of split weeks as we're not authorized to even offer split weeks. We've continued the practice on a limited basis as the previous trustees started doing it a few years ago even though it wasn't permitted by the documents. As we improve the rental program and sell the weeks, there will eventually be no availability for a split week reservation. We do make occasional exceptions for owners when we can but we need everyone to understand in advance that splitting your week was never intended nor included in your documents. In fact, at our meeting, you specifically asked me if you could split your week and I told you that we would absolutely consider it depending upon availability and if your fees were current. You might also want to consider that, when you split a week, you take half of two separate weeks and you prevent the resort from renting a full week and generating money from delinquent owners for much needed operating income.

As I also recall, you own a float week. While you are deeded a specific week in a specific unit for ownership purposes, your documents specifically state that your occupancy rights are not for that specific unit but subject to what is available during the floating season when you make your reservation. That is the entire function of a split week and floating time. All of the units currently being renovated are "floating" units and no owner has been denied occupancy at all.

The documents are silent as to when units can be renovated and we schedule renovations during those times when we have units empty. You have a float week and you've been given a high demand week to occupy during your float season (week 7) just as you always have. If you have made a split week reservation for week 7, you have prevented us from renting that week during a time when there is a lot of rental demand. Nevertheless, we confirmed your request for a reservation simply because you are an owner and we try to accommodate owners whenever possible. I can understand why you might not appreciate that and thank us for it but I'm surprised that you're criticizing us for bending over backwards to assist you. You are a deeded float owner and you do have use of a week when you want it in perhaps the highest demand week outside of summer so I frankly do not understand your complaint.
Rosaleen claims that there are no meeting minutes for me to copy while at Southcape next week and that she'd appreciate having copies of the meeting minutes I've shared with Southcape owners! She also claims that while I am free to examine the trustees' meeting minutes, I can't make copies of them! That's odd to me in view of the fact that I have copies of trustees' meeting minutes that she claims she doesn't have.

I agree that the documents do not specify when renovations are to be done, but common sense tells me that when they're all being done at once the float weeks owners are being denied access to the weeks of their choice, and that the same thing will be happening in seven years if not sooner.
 

Carolinian

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Have the very specific citation of the state corporate law that entitles you by law to those minutes to give to her. Demand an answer on whether the corporation intends to flount your legal rights from the chief commissar of NEVS himself!



Rosaleen claims that there are no meeting minutes for me to copy while at Southcape next week and that she'd appreciate having copies of the meeting minutes I've shared with Southcape owners! She also claims that while I am free to examine the trustees' meeting minutes, I can't make copies of them! That's odd to me in view of the fact that I have copies of trustees' meeting minutes that she claims she doesn't have.

I agree that the documents do not specify when renovations are to be done, but common sense tells me that when they're all being done at once the float weeks owners are being denied access to the weeks of their choice, and that the same thing will be happening in seven years if not sooner.
 

NEVMSLLC

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Minutes

Have the very specific citation of the state corporate law that entitles you by law to those minutes to give to her. Demand an answer on whether the corporation intends to flount your legal rights from the chief commissar of NEVS himself!

What Sou13 forgot to mention, which she knows, is that the reason there are no minutes available is because the previous trustees never held a trustee meeting.
 

Sou13

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That's not quite what I meant

That's not quite what I meant about the missing meeting minutes. I have copies of annual meeting minutes and trustees' meeting minutes from 1984-85 but from that time on I have no meeting minutes, only reports that were included with annual assessment bills. Rosaleen claims that there are no meeting minutes from 1986 on and that she'd appreciate copies of whatever I've been able to obtain from other Southcape owners. It may be that there were no minutes, but there definitely were trustees' meetings! If there were no trustees' meetings, how did the sale to NEVS come about?
 

NEVMSLLC

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NEVS did not purchase anything from the trustees. NEVS purchased the inventory owned by Bob Woods and Vince Barth who also happened to be the trustees. The sale did not require a trustee meeting.

We have been able to find no evidence of a trustee meeting since Woods and Barth took over 1988. We have spoken with other "trustees" and they were unable to remember any meetings taking place as well.
 

ecwinch

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It may be that there were no minutes, but there definitely were trustees' meetings! If there were no trustees' meetings, how did the sale to NEVS come about?

Cliff is in spin mode again. Would there not have to be a trustee's meeting to approve the change in the management company?

And without a trustee's meeting, how are the current trustees properly seated? Seems like you would need a meeting for a change of trustees would need to take place. Or are Barth and Woods still trustees? Likewise, on the officers of the corporation. The HOA corporation was not purchased.

Cliff is just making this stuff up as he goes along. No regard for proper procedure, due process, or the derivative rights of the owners (shareholders).

His defense will be "well the other guys never did this stuff. Why are you holding me accountable?". Same old, same old.

Only thing that is changing is the calendar.
 

Sou13

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How do you explain this?

If the sale was by Barth and Woods to NEVS and did not involve "trustees" how do you explain this:

DOCUMENT ABSTRACT
Bk-Pg:23138-104 Recorded: 09-04-2008 @ 3:44:18pm Inst #: 46642 Chg: Y Vfy: N Sec: N


Pages in document: 3
Grp: 1
Type: Assignment
Desc: FALMOUTH RD

Town: MASHPEE Addr: 950 FALMOUTH RD

Gtor: BARTH, VINCENT J (AS ID TR BY AY) (Gtor)

Gtor: WOODS, ROBERT P (AS ID AS TR &O) (Gtor)

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE TRUST (BY TR &O) (Gtor)

Gtor: SOUTHCAPE RESORT & CLUB COMMUNITY ASSOCIATION INC (&O) (Gtor)

Gtee: NEW ENGLAND VACATION SERVICES LLC (Gtee)


Return addr: DUNNING KIRRANE MCNICHOLS & GARNER LLP
REGISTRY BOX # 9
P. O. BOX 560
MASHPEE, MA 02649


Recording Fee: 50.00 State excise: .00 Surcharge: 25.00
 

Sou13

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"Owner advisory board"

NEVMSLLC said:
As Sou13 will tell you, I am in the process of setting up an owner advisory board that will consist of individual unit owners. I don't know of a single developer anywhere that has anything like this at all. I means a lot more work for me but I think it's worth it. I have a list of potential volunteers and I will finalize the board after the annual meeting when I know who is interested in serving. This board will serve several functions. They will act as a "phantom" board and be involved in providing input into all decisions at Southcape. When the time comes to turn over the board to the owners, we will have a group of experienced volunteers who will be available to stand for election. They will know the resort, the process, the problems, the solutions and will hopefully continue the work we've begun in making Southcape the best resort possible. My hope is that, if I've done a good job, they'll keep me. If I haven't, they should throw me out. Now there's an incentive - I like my job!
I've learned from Rosaleen that the owner advisory board has been selected and is supposed to be meeting April 10, 2010.

Now's the time to make our voices heard to this "advisory" board, and the best approach is here IMVHO, especially since the members have been selected, not elected. Whoever is on the board may be reading these posts, as you can see from the above posts by NEVMSLLC.

I found out about the upcoming meeting by meeting with Rosaleen while at Southcape. I hope that the trustees' meeting minutes will be made available to the "advisory" board members in a better way than they were made available to me. I barely had time to skim through them while Rosaleen sat next to me, having made me aware that she had other things to do (she did it nicely but made her point).

I find it odd, strange, and curious that I'm now being told that there were no minutes of annual owners' meetings because I have copies of the "minutes" from 2007 and 2008 that Rosaleen had sent me, as well as the compiled financial statements from 2006-2008.

So now that I've provided Rosaleen with copies of all the annual meeting minutes, trustees' meeting minutes, financial reports, budgets, newsletters, etc. that I've been sharing here and to my email subscribers, they should be available for Southcape owners' review.

If any Southcape owner reading this discussion is not registered to post, I'm encouraging you to do so. It's free and gives you access to contact all other Southcape owners who've posted here. If you contact me I'll give you the list of all the Southcape owners I've contacted through TUG.

Here are some important resources for Southcape owners:
Southcape Condo I Master Deed
Massachusetts Corporations Search
Barnstable County Capeview Internet Access
 

Sou13

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"Privacy rights" at Southcape Resort

See Post #354 for how "privacy rights" are being protected at Southcape Resort!

I had an unfortunate experience of learning that non-owners seem to have more "privacy rights" than owners. I was taken to task for invading the "privacy" of a non-owner who had signed the pool use book but then was made to feel "uncomfortable" when I asked her whether she was an owner. I later found out that not only was she a non-owner, but also that the person whose name she'd used as an owner had converted to Festiva just two weeks earlier!

I hope that this matter will come to the attention of the "advisory committee" and that not all the members were selected because they approve of NEVS and NEVMS!
 

NEVMSLLC

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The fact of the matter is, that is not the status of the woman you spoke to in the pool. We also had several complaints about your harassing people at the resort with your complaints and you were asked to stop bothering the other owners and guests. Your actions will be brought up to the advisory committee.
 

ecwinch

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Sou13,

You still have a constitutional right to free speech, as long as you are not infringing the rights of your fellow owners or harming anyone. Given that Cliff has decided that the members register cannot be provided to the owners, you really have no other reasonable option for communicating with your fellow owners.

So your contact of fellow owners would likely be viewed in that context. It is analogous to someone going door to door in a neighborhood.

Now your actions have to be reasonable. So asking if they are owners, and if they interested in learning more is not "harassing". You just have to be respectful of the rights of your fellow owners while they are in the common areas.

You also have a right to due process if Cliff attempts to take punitive action against you as the tone of his post implies. Per the by-laws, they have to provide you with reasonable notice, the right to be heard, and any suspension cannot last for more than 60 days. The reasonable notice would logically have to identify which portion of the rules and regulations you are accused of violating. When you ask someone if they are an owner, just be sure to not be uttering a disturbing noise at the same time. So avoid rebel yells, pig grunts, or howling.

Cliff should also be mindful of making false accusations. As he noted on a similar issue - "harassment" implies a particular legal meaning. Especially given his official position at Southcape.
 
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NEVMSLLC

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Communicating with owners is fine with me. Harassment (the word used by the complaining owners) is not. The entire situation was handled by resort management and I was not involved, nor was I even aware of the problem as I was out of state at the time. No "punitive" action was taken or even considered. Management simply asked her to stop harassing people and she agreed. No big deal.
 

ecwinch

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The fact of the matter is, that is not the status of the woman you spoke to in the pool. We also had several complaints about your harassing people at the resort with your complaints and you were asked to stop bothering the other owners and guests. Your actions will be brought up to the advisory committee.

No "punitive" action was taken or even considered..... No big deal.

Then why bring her actions up to the advisory committee?
 
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NEVMSLLC

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See Post #354 for how "privacy rights" are being protected at Southcape Resort!

I had an unfortunate experience of learning that non-owners seem to have more "privacy rights" than owners. I was taken to task for invading the "privacy" of a non-owner who had signed the pool use book but then was made to feel "uncomfortable" when I asked her whether she was an owner. I later found out that not only was she a non-owner, but also that the person whose name she'd used as an owner had converted to Festiva just two weeks earlier!

I hope that this matter will come to the attention of the "advisory committee" and that not all the members were selected because they approve of NEVS and NEVMS!

As you can see above, she hoped the matter will come to the attention of the advisory committee, and it will, along with all of her comments and actions.
 

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I think you are avoided the question. What is the advisory committee going to do? And since she is going to be the subject of their discussion, is this an invitation for her to appear before the committee to ensure the information presented is balanced?

And I think you are misinterpreting Sou13's meaning. For her post is:

"non-owners seem to have more "privacy rights" than owners"

That a non-owner caused her to be "taken to task" for her asking if the guest was an owner. Because the guest was made to feel "uncomfortable". That the rights of a guest are superior to any right the owner has to communicate with their fellow owners.

And that is a situation of your own making. Her actions are as a direct result your denial of Sou13's legitimate request under the by-laws for access to the members registers. If you do not want Sou13 to ask the question, then stop violating the by-laws of the resort. Then the problem will be solved.
 
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e.bram

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If SOU13 was thinking of running for a position on the BOD, she has every right to poll and campaign among the owners at the TS (or those she perceives as owners or future owners). Like any other politician running for a political office.(public or private)
 

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You guys are still too funny! Talk about mountains out of molehills.

The resort manager had several complaints, more than just the "alleged" non-owner. She spoke to Sou13. Sou13 was very cooperative, the problems stopped. End of story. I wasn't even there.

Geez, it's not like it was a civil rights demonstration!!
 

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Harassing a campaigner is not OK. It is like the mayor of a town threatening a rival from campaigning with arrest if they campaign in front of city hall or Boston Commons because some of his syncopants are annoyed. where does anyone expect SOU13 to campaign for a BOD office if not at the TS.On Boston Commons?
 

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San Antonio
Resorts Owned
Marriott Harbour Point (HP), Kauai Beach Villas, Riverside Suites, WorldMark Pts (WM), Wyndham Pts
You guys are still too funny! Talk about mountains out of molehills.

The resort manager had several complaints, more than just the "alleged" non-owner. She spoke to Sou13. Sou13 was very cooperative, the problems stopped. End of story. I wasn't even there.

Geez, it's not like it was a civil rights demonstration!!

Only because Sou13 is a reasonable person and she agreed to the resort manager's unreasonable request.

She should have told them to pound sand. As an owner she has every right in the world to ask other guests if they are owners. I sincerely doubt that the Resort Manager would have reacted if Sou13 was asking so she could encourage then to join FAC. :wave:

Why don't you ask guests what do they feel is more annoying, Sou13 asking them if they are owners, or having to get a parking pass from the sales guy scam? Or are you still maintaining that owners never complain about the FAC sales guy?
 
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