[2008] Southcape Resort

[Carolinian]

If we had an HOA we might be able to do something about this situation.

BTW I didn't realize that when it looks as though you're awake in the night posting to TUG, it's morning in your part of the world!

When members first started organizing at the four First Flight resorts, they had developer-controlled HOA boards. The first step was to take over those HOA's from the developer.

When I think of a ''subsequent developer'' I think of the former Bodie Island Beach Club. The antics of the ''subsequent developer'' there crashed that timeshare and it is no longer around. Subsequnet developers are often worse than the original developer. I would have absolutely zero interest in owning at a rssort controlled by one of them.

 

[Sou13]

Well, I do own a week!

Cliff

I was only extending your analogy. You made the analogy, not I.

For the record, to date I do not think you have taken any inappropriate action at Southcape - with one caveat - your relationship with Outfield. You have simply replaced a developer that was doing nothing to make the resort better, and assumed his rights.

I think you are taking positive steps at the resort, and the owners will benefit from the improvements you have implemented. They will bear a disapportionate amount of the expense, but will clearly benefit.

I think I have outlined why I think the situation is inequitable, given the rights you possess. If you would relinquish or restrict some of those rights, I would consider owning at this resort. In the absence of doing so, even if we were to trust you, the sword hanging over the owners head still exists.

And since those rights could easily transfer to someone else who is less trustworthy, the peril still exists.

And there is the unanswered question of how will you recoup your investment. I know you are too smart to have made that investment without a plan.

My caveat above is your relationship with Outfield. I think there have been sufficient posts in this thread to see that all is not right there.

I've owned a week for nearly a quarter of a century so if owning a week is the prerequisite for getting these questions answered, now you have it!

 

[ecwinch]

Cliff,

You seem to have stopped posting. Hope all is well, and you are just busy.

When you return, could you answer the following:

When you first appeared here, you wanted to clear up some "untruths" and "misrepresentations". Can you expand on what untruths and misrepresentations that you were referrring to?

Thanks

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi Eric

All is well and I am very busy! I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing. I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns. Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.

However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00. I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.

Cliff

 

[bobcat]

Hi Eric

All is well and I am very busy! I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing. I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns. Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.

However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00. I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.

Cliff

I think you need to do your math again. Unhappy owner. But I guess when you do not answer email that is O. K. We should take a poll of happy owners since you bought weeks at Southcape. Also, unhappy ones.

 

[SCapeOwnersRUS]

Message to Cliff Hagberg Nevs et al.

Cliff,
I AM an owner at Southcape, and have read the string and posts with dismay.

Without anytongue and cheek cuteness simply and please answer and address the following:

1) How is it appropriate for you and Outfield Marketing to be in partnertship together, and if not PLEASE ONCE AND FOR ALL DEFINE YOUR RELATIONSHIP FACTUALLY ?

2) What is the motivation for the hired guns or "partners" of NEVS (Outfield Marketing et. al.) to be so aggressive in their quest to get owners to sell to Festiva by paying money to do so?

3) What members or trustees of Southcape or the " developers" also have interests with Outfield?

4) What is the relationship between Outfield, Nevs, Festiva, Southcape the Trustees, et. al.

5) Are all transactions contracts and improvements being handled Arms Length?

6) How much does Outfield receive by trying to convince deeded owners to sell to Festiva for a fee and how much if anything do any of the other "Trustees" receive in their various companies or capacities?

7) Who exactly are the Trusteess and what exactly is their relationship and or beneficial interest in any of the other entities however their interest may appear to the intricate web that seems to have been woven?

8) What interest does Rosylyn Cassidy have and under whose employ is she and whose direction?

Answer these questions PLEASE simply honestly and without disclaimers and all the coy ducking behind wordsmithing and many will most probably be satsified IF THE ANSWERS are TRUTHFUL able to be proven and DO NOT compromise other deeded owners.

Regards.....
PS All of my Special Assessments have been PAID IN FULL......

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Hi Russ

I will answer your questions truthfully and to the point even though i don't like people being referred to as "hired guns".

1. It is not inappropriate for me to be in business with Outfield in any way.

2. Outfield is bringing owners up to date on what's happening at the resort and offering owners an additional vacation exchange opportunity by joining Festiva Adventure Club.

3. Tom Franks and Steve Lamantia have interests in Outfield. I do not.

4. Festiva has no relationship with anyone other than that Outfield is an agent for Festiva resorts. Outfield and I own NEVS. Franks, Lamantia and I are trustees at Southcape.

5. Yes

6. I do not know Outfield's financial arrangements with Festiva. None of the trustees are compensated in any way for being a trustee.

7. I've explained this above and I don't see it as "a web that seems to have been woven". There are legitimate business reasons for why things have been set up the way the have and everything is properly registered. That information is available to anyone at the secretary of states office which is searchable online.

8. Rosaleen has no interest in any of the companies. She is employed by Southcape Resort and Club Community Association.

Cliff

P. S. Thanks for paying the assessment. I really think you'll be pleased when you see what we're accomplishing.

 

[e.bram]

I think the NEVS, Outfield, Festiva project will end in failure. The prime weeks owners will not convert. Most of the rest in this economy will also not convert. As the MAs and special asessments increase a lot will bail out.A death spiral will ensue with the whole development going whole ownership. The only thing that makes sence for an non waterfront property in any extremely seasonal area. (as the cape is except for full time residents). A ride by even the oceanfront resorts off season indicates very light occupancy. Note the Cape season is VERY short. (about 8 out of 52 weeks). With ever increasing MFs will the off season owners want to subsidise the prime weeks owners. Points tries to increase the prime weeks by letting every poit owner can get a reservation durring prime. But mathmatically this is obviously this is impossible. Eventually mosy people will recognize this Ponzi scheme and the points concept will collapse. (look what Wynhdam points bring on Ebay, the equivalant of $1.00 weeks)

 

[ecwinch]

Hi Eric

All is well and I am very busy! I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing. I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns. Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.

However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00. I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.

Cliff

Cliff,

Thanks for the reply - even though I am not an owner.

I am assuming that you have read some of the posts here about the tactics that Outfield is using to get owners to convert to the Festiva. I was just curious if you place any credence to those reports, and if so, have you taken any steps to rein them in.

For instance, one item that has been reported is that Outfield is telling owners that more special assessments will be forthcoming, and that by converting to Festiva, the owner can escape the impact of those assessments. I think you can understand that this statement is undermining the trust that owners might place in your plan to improve the resort.

And it further complicated by the fact that Outfield is a owner in NEVS, and in their role as Trustee, would be privy to information that might form a factual basis for their claim that more special assessments are coming.

I think you can understand the complications here.

Thanks

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Here we go again. E.bram, you really don't know what you're talking about. As near as I can tell you have no actual background in the industry at all and you certainly don't understand the life cycle of a resort. I'll try to take your points one at a time and I'm answering you only because your statement is so completely wrong that I don't want our owners to be concerned by your incorrect speculations.

Whether the prime week owners convert (or in fact any owners convert) to Festiva makes no difference at all to the resort. The resort does not benefit either way.

You next statement about owners bailing is true but you assume that, when owners bail, there is no mechanism to replace them with new owners. In some resorts that is true and I have consulted with resorts where this has happened and the resort had to close (Cap'n Gladcliff for those of you who don't believe me and want to look it up). If there is a sales program, old owners are being replaced by new owners and the resort is financially healthy. Perhaps you'd like to talk about what's been happening at your resort, the Oceancliff?

Southcape is not going to revert to whole ownership. The resort is basically healthy and is going to get even stronger, not weaker.

If you don't think the Cape is busy all year round, come down on a Friday afternoon and try driving in Hyannis in the middle of February. The actual high demand now runs from May until the middle of October. We haven't had an 8 week season here since I was in high school and, before anyone can say it, yes, it was a long time ago. My other company, IVS Realty has been successfully selling off season weeks on Cape Cod since 1992 and we're still selling them with no problems.

Off season owners will not be subsidizing the prime season. All maintenance fees are created equal and one time period does not subsidize another.

You completely misunderstand and misrepresent points whether its Festiva points, RCI points or Bluegreen points. That's simply not the way points works. You are correct that, if every off season points owner reserved a prime week the system would collapse. But come on, if an off season week is worth 2,000 points and a prime week is worth 8,000 points, the off season owner simply doesn't have enough points to reserve a prime week. Your scenario can't work and hasn't happened in almost 20 years of there being points products.

Yes, that's right, points have been around for over 20 years. I worked with one of the first points programs in the world in South Africa in 1990. Do you truly believe that RCI would begin a points program if it was likely to collapse the system???

Saying the system is no good because you can buy Wyndham points on Ebay for $1.00 doesn't mean anything either. I collect vintage guitars and recently bought a 1968 gibson J-45 for $30.00 on Ebay because no one else bid. That guitar is still worth a couple of grand and I've actually sold guitars on Ebay for thousands.

It's these kinds of rumor and unfounded speculations that can cause far more problems that anything else and that's why I've chosen to respond to you.

Cliff

 

[NEVMSLLC]

I do understand, Eric and I'm answering you again only because I have heard of owner's concerns about sales.

In the past several months, I have heard from several owners about what salepeople have allegedly told them. Several of the owners I spoke with ended up telling me that they were simply confused by the presentation and got things mixed up. After I explained things to them they were fine.

We did have several instances of a situation where I was convinced that there was an actual problem. I called Outfield and learned the sale rep's name. I then contacted other owners who had appointments with this particular sales rep and when I heard the same statements from other owners, it quickly became apparent that there was a problem with this sales rep.

When I contacted Outfield with my results, Outfield's reaction was to immediately terminate this particular sales rep as he was simply lying to people. I contacted owners personally to tell them what happened and to offer my apologies. All of the owners I spoke with said they understood and were appreciative of my and Outfield's efforts to correct a problem.

We have had two other instances where there appeared to be problems but not to the level of firing someone. Those two people were brought back in for additional training as they were explaining the program incorrectly but there was no misrepresentation involved. Those people are back and we've not had a problem since.

I take owner complaints very seriously. The truth is, i don't want any complaints but I know that's unrealistic as well. I've said before on here that you can't have a sales program without some complaints. The main thing is not that you have no complaints, it's that, if there are complaints, what's done about them. Both I and Outfield are very proactive in responding to complaints and correcting mistakes. That's one of the main ingredients I look for in a sales company. When there is a problem, how does the company handle it.

Most all of the complaints happened in the beginning of the program. I'm simply not hearing complaints anymore but, if I do, I'll be investigating again.

 

[SCapeOwnersRUS]

Cliff Why Have You Not Answered This???????

Message Deleted

 

[e.bram]

OK. Let's tale Oceancliff as you suggested. The HOA can't give the off season
away, even AFTER a $2200.00 SA. Look at their websight if you don't beleive me. The same is true with the Wellington. And Newport is busier than the Cape off season. Also consider that Oceancliff is HOA frugally managed with by the owners with no owners(developer) getting a free ride. All rental income(there is a hotel on the premises that caters wedding with very few rooms for wedding guests) from HOA units goes to the HOA(no free riders) . Consider that the resort is waterfront and close to Hammersmith Farms( where Jack and Jackie were married) on the road with many mansions on Ocean Drive. And still I sometimes wonder about is viability. If the MFs keep getting higher, many older owners will bail until it has it's own death spiral. However with whole ownership the property has a much greater value the sum of the value of all the units themselves as a TS. I figure I'll hang in there for a while. Because of their location the average as a condo is probably between $250,000.00 to $400,000.00. 52 weeks of a TS would bring no more than $50,000.00.(if you could sell them all) However the MFs would be about $700.00 per month as a condo as compared to $700.00 per week for a TS.

 

[e.bram]

Some of the owners should get together and try a court action to get any freeloader unit owners to pay their share of MFs. This would solve the problem. Another post about The Breakers Resort names a lawyer with TS expierence. Might be good place to start. Look if 20 owners contributed $100.00 each that would be two grand.Enough to get the project off the ground. Once the TS loses the burden of non contributing owners it is all over but "the screaming and the shouting" GOOD LUCK

 

[NEVMSLLC]

That's right, Oceancliff had a $2,200 assessment and people want to string me up for $400!

You're also right that they can't give the weeks away. Same situation they had when they asked me to sell the association weeks back in the 90's. They had hundreds of them. Well, I did sell the off season weeks and all the other weeks as well. When I had almost sold all of the association weeks, they decided they didn't need me anymore so I left. Last I heard they were back up to over 800 delinquent owners and no way to sell them. See what can happen without an effective sales program?

Don't forget, I've assigned all rental income from my weeks to the association as well. I won't see a dime from rental income, it's all going to the resort.

I won't even quibble with your numbers, even though they're wrong again. What they need is a way of selling the association owned inventory to bring in new maintenance fee paying owners. I agree that the resort is well managed except for that one problem: they don't know how to replace owners who fall out.

I've proven to them that it can be done and I continue to do it at resort after resort in New England. Your premise that it can't be done at Southcape is simply wrong. I did it for the former developers back in 1992 and 1993 before they asked me to stop selling their weeks because they wanted the rental income. By having a successful sales program, Southcape will be able to avoid the spiraling maintenance fees, delinquent ownership and falling income that other resorts are experiencing. Southcape now has one of the best resale programs in the entire country.

 

[Sou13]

Here's the post and where it was posted

Hi Eric

All is well and I am very busy! I'm not going to go through the 400+ posts and try to correct every thing. I don't find a lot of Southcape owners on here with concerns. Most of the recent posts are coming from people who don't even own at the resort, with one exception.

However, just to give you an example, Sou13 posted that I had purchased my week at Southcape on Ebay for $1.00. I have never purchased a week on Ebay for any resort.

Cliff

What Mr. Hagberg neglected to mention is that he bought his week at Southcape for $1!

He also failed to mention that he was present at the 2008 owners' association meeting, but not as a member!

As I've already warned, don't let a smooth-talking salesman swindle out of your weeks or your voice in the Community Association!

Here's more on Outfield Marketing:

Cape Cod Sandcastle Owners Please Read

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=679004#post679004

So you see it wasn't posted here and it doesn't say anything about eBay. It doesn't even say what it's purported to say!

 

[NEVMSLLC]

LOL, I apologize and thanks for correcting me. I thought it was you who said it and I didn't look back through the 17 pages of posts to make sure.

By the way, I've never attended a Southcape owner's meeting. Next month will be my first. Finally, where do you off get accusing me of "swindling" people out of their weeks? Isn't that libelous?

Cliff

 

[Sou13]

Are you Outfield Marketing?

O.K., Cliff, we both didn't hear each other 100% accurately. I recall you saying to me that you were at that meeting, and I recall something about buying a week on eBay for $1.00 but as previously posted we may not have accurately recalled all that was said. It was a rather long conversation and you were on your cell phone on the way to Southcape so you couldn't have been giving me 100% of your attention.

Reread the post. I was referring to Outfield Marketing but if the shoe fits, by all means, wear it!

As for the use of the word "swindle" it's 100% appropriate in the case of Outfield Marketing which owns NEVS along with you (see Post #407)!

 

[ecwinch]

OK. Let's tale Oceancliff as you suggested. The HOA can't give the off season
away, even AFTER a $2200.00 SA. Look at their websight if you don't beleive me. The same is true with the Wellington. And Newport is busier than the Cape off season. Also consider that Oceancliff is HOA frugally managed with by the owners with no owners(developer) getting a free ride. All rental income(there is a hotel on the premises that caters wedding with very few rooms for wedding guests) from HOA units goes to the HOA(no free riders) . Consider that the resort is waterfront and close to Hammersmith Farms( where Jack and Jackie were married) on the road with many mansions on Ocean Drive. And still I sometimes wonder about is viability. If the MFs keep getting higher, many older owners will bail until it has it's own death spiral. However with whole ownership the property has a much greater value the sum of the value of all the units themselves as a TS. I figure I'll hang in there for a while. Because of their location the average as a condo is probably between $250,000.00 to $400,000.00. 52 weeks of a TS would bring no more than $50,000.00.(if you could sell them all) However the MFs would be about $700.00 per month as a condo as compared to $700.00 per week for a TS.

Your solution is only viable once the resort has hit the "death spiral" phase. Even then it requires a DEVELOPER to step up and fund the acquistion of the available inventory, and to champion the conversion to a condo project. By and large, the logistics of the conversion become problematic in any other scenerio.

And as much as we bash Cliff, it would appear that some of the same intent/purpose underly's your position. It subverts the whole reason that timeshares exist. Yes, once a resort is sold-out, the parts are not as valuable as the whole. But that is not the basis on which it was sold. Your position seems like a case against timeshare ownership, and the same arguement can be made about almost every resort.

And the significant reduction in m/f only comes from a comparable decease in services - no front desk, no check-in, no housekeeping, etc. It is an completely different model. Your asking the tiger to change it's stripes.

And the end of the day, you have recognize that Cliff is suggesting that the only viable model is one where a resort is never sold-out, but always has an effective sales program that addresses the issue of owner churn.

See Cliff we really do listen to what you have to say.

 

[e.bram]

If the resort goes bankrupt then the judge decides what's best for the creditors and removes the complexity mentioned in conversion. And it might be in 2009 the concept of an inland seasonal TS is no longer viable. No way can anyone or group sell such a TS. It is easier to sell ice cubes to Eskimos of sand in the desert. Look on Ebay for a $1.00 plus free usage, plus free closing get no bids. And Oceancliff in Newport can't even give them away. Go figure. But that is the present day situation, and with our economy. I do not see it improving soon. With Southcape managment will live off the management fees and bonuses(like AIG)until the end.
No way will new owners come in to replace the bailees, never happen, a pipedream, pie in the sky about as much credabiloity as what the sales weasles at TS presentations tell you.

 

[ecwinch]

If the resort goes bankrupt then the judge decides what's best for the creditors and removes the complexity mentioned in conversion. And it might be in 2009 the concept of an inland seasonal TS is no longer viable. No way can anyone or group sell such a TS. It is easier to sell ice cubes to Eskimos of sand in the desert. Look on Ebay for a $1.00 plus free usage, plus free closing get no bids. And Oceancliff in Newport can't even give them away. Go figure. But that is the present day situation, and with our economy. I do not see it improving soon. With Southcape managment will live off the management fees and bonuses(like AIG)until the end.
No way will new owners come in to replace the bailees, never happen, a pipedream, pie in the sky about as much credabiloity as what the sales weasles at TS presentations tell you.

But what happens to your ownership in a bankrupcty scenerio? Can you point us to a resort where owners received significant value for their units in a court ordered conversion plan?

And your ignoring Cliff's point that Oceancliff only had that problem when they stopped an active resale program.

His basic premise is that timeshares are a sales driven product, and that demand is only created by sales efforts and does not occur naturally.

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Gee E.bram, I guess the buyers for the 31 sales I've had on Cape Cod so far this month haven't read your doom and gloom posts. You might also be surprised to realize that the prices range from $1,995 to $22,000 and that's without a developer and no marketing at all. I take listings from owners wanting to sell their weeks and i actually sell them. I have never charged a fee to list a week for sale and I only get paid if I actually sell the week. No developer at all and all of the resorts where I do this are sold out and the developer is long gone. I work for the owners and the associations and I've been doing it for almost 20 years. Gee, if I had only talked with E.bram twenty years ago, I might never have done this believing that it couldn't possibly work!! How much experience do you have in the industry?? When are you going to decide to become part of the solution instead of continuing to be part of the problem? Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention. None of the resorts I sell at are oceanfront. They are all "inland season TS (that are) no longer viable".

 

[NEVMSLLC]

Thank you Eric and you are correct. I seldom meet people who get up in the morning and say to themselves, let's go out and see if we can buy a timeshare today! It is and always has been a sales driven product. Whether we like that or not, we ignore the reality at our own peril.

A well managed resort will implement a resale program for its owners before they reach the so called "death spiral". It only makes sense. People die, lose their jobs, get older, don't vacation anymore and a whole lot of other reasons why they don't want or use their timeshare anymore. As an industry, what are we to do with these people? We'd better find a way to replace them or all those bad things will start happening to a resort.

I'm not suggesting that mine is the only way, only that my way has been proven successful at resort after resort since 1992. I also believe very strongly in timeshare ownership or I wouldn't be selling it.

I would also argue with your statement that the only significant decrease in maintenance fees comes from decreasing services. There are management issues that can make resorts more efficient. Reduce the delinquencies, fund the reserves properly, operate on a budget and replace those owners that are going to be delinquent before they become delinquent are all ingredients of a sound stable resort.

Finally, all of the resorts where i sell are "sold out". It does not require a developer to have a resale program. Where a developer comes in handy is in a situation where you have a large amount of never sold inventory and a large backlog of delinquent inventory. That's when you need the marketing and sales ability to go outside the resort into the market and that takes a developer's strength. When the developer's done, the resort moves into the secondary phase of growth. The problem with Southcape is that the former developer didn't do anything for the last twenty years. I'm just trying to fix things and I'm always open to ideas on how best to do that. I'm just doing what I've been doing successfully for the last twenty years.

I'll say again, if you want to know more about me, google me and read what I've been saying and doing for the past twenty years. I'm not asking anyone to believe me.

 

[e.bram]

ecwinch:
If selling off season TSs is that easy, how come Wyndham in Newport RI closed their sales offices. I guess they were not professional enough?Did not have enough expierence? I am not part of thr problem, only a messenger. The climate in the northeast does not allow for an all season resort operation. I remember 50 years ago Freedomland(Bronx) ande Coney Island(Brooklyn) went belly up because they could not survive the short season. Disneyland in Ca and Fl thrive.

 

[ecwinch]

I would also argue with your statement that the only significant decrease in maintenance fees comes from decreasing services. There are management issues that can make resorts more efficient. Reduce the delinquencies, fund the reserves properly, operate on a budget and replace those owners that are going to be delinquent before they become delinquent are all ingredients of a sound stable resort.

Agreed, but I did not say that the only significant way to decrease m/f was to decrease service. Better mgt will definitely control expenses, and in turn m/f. But even sound mgt is not going to reduce m/f to the level that e.bram is suggesting (i.e. $700 a month or $175 a week).